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Artillery unit? Section Chief's role?
Splinty
Joined: February 06, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 09:14 PM UTC
For officers especially, being infantry means all types of infantry. Oficers get rotated through assignments in mech, light and airborne at some level of their career progression so they have experience in all types of combat ops. Airborne and the Ranger battalions get the best rated and of course Ranger qualified officers. Enlisted types generally stay in the samekind of units until they get up to staff level jobs.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 09:29 PM UTC
Don't forget that the current Chief of Staff is Special Forces which is a separate Branch, and is NOT the same as "Infantry", although it is considered one of the "Combat Arms" branches. And even though the Corps of Engineers has two "tracks" one of which is the "Combat Engineers", the Engineer Branch is considered "Combat Support".
I don't know when the last time an Engineer basic Branch officer was "Chief of Staff" but I suspect it has been a LONG time. Most Engineer officers will never get the kind of assignments (Division and Corps Command) which are almost always considered a pre-requisite to become the Chief. The best an Engineer can usually hope for is to make LTG (3-star) and become the "Chief of Engineers".
(Just HAVE to mention that both the Current Branch Chief, LTG Carl Strock, and his immediate predecessor, LTG Bob Flowers, are both VMI grads)
Tom
I don't know when the last time an Engineer basic Branch officer was "Chief of Staff" but I suspect it has been a LONG time. Most Engineer officers will never get the kind of assignments (Division and Corps Command) which are almost always considered a pre-requisite to become the Chief. The best an Engineer can usually hope for is to make LTG (3-star) and become the "Chief of Engineers".
(Just HAVE to mention that both the Current Branch Chief, LTG Carl Strock, and his immediate predecessor, LTG Bob Flowers, are both VMI grads)
Tom
md72
#439
Joined: November 05, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 01:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Or Airborne, jumping out of airplanes. (Never understood that myself though. Why jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?)
I know the answer to this one! No one in the Airborne has ever seen a perfectly good aircraft! :-)
md72
#439
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 01:39 AM UTC
I used the term "walking" into battle very losely (sp?). It seems to me at some point you gotta get out of the Bradley, Stryker, Helo or aircraft, put your boots on the ground (walk) and shoot at the other guy. 
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I used the term "walking" into battle very losely (sp?). It seems to me at some point you gotta get out of the Bradley, Stryker, Helo or aircraft, put your boots on the ground (walk) and shoot at the other guy.
I agree with you there. But riding does beat walking the whole way.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:20 AM UTC
For the Top Cheif's of staff jobs i'am sure its got a lot to do with who you know, not what! I'am sure it's the same every where.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
For the Top Cheif's of staff jobs i'am sure its got a lot to do with who you know, not what! I'am sure it's the same every where.
Yup, but you still have to be from the Combat Arms Branches to get that high, and know the right people.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:25 AM UTC
Some one siad that the current U.S. Top Cheif is from a special forces back ground? which branch?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:17 AM UTC
Yes, Special Forces is another Combat Arms Branch. It is different though, you can't just start out SF, you have to be another branch first then apply/try out for SF when you are a Captain. Usually, most SF guys start out infantry or another Combat Arms branch. I believe the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was Infantry before going SF.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, Special Forces is another Combat Arms Branch. It is different though, you can't just start out SF, you have to be another branch first then apply/try out for SF when you are a Captain. Usually, most SF guys start out infantry or another Combat Arms branch. I believe the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was Infantry before going SF.
Back in the early 80's, the Detachment Commander was usually a captain, and the XO was a 1LT. I saw several 2LT's in the Q course, who were not prior enlisted. I don't know how they finagled it. At the same time, the SF Baby (68 REP) program had just started, where you could enlist for SF, provided you survived the training. Our Team Leader in 10th Group was an LT. In fact, his name remained Eltee far past his promotion to captain. Things may be different now-it's hard enough just keeping up with training requirements, let alone who we're supposed to have. But there are lieutenants going throught the Q. A good thing, since my team does not even have an officer, although there is no one under the rank of E-7. There is a push to get E-7s and E-8s to go warrant, and warrants are qualified to lead a team. (and why not, if an E-8 can?) Some of these have never seen a day of non SF duty, having been SF Babies themselves.
Currently by the way, should anyone be interested, the 68 REP program is back in effect. You can enlist as an E-1 with SF in your contract, and two years later (again, provided you live) be an E-6.
PM me if anyone out there feels their cubicle is getting too small. Or if you are already in and want an MOS change. The re-up bonuses are outrageous.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 01:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I believe the current Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs was Infantry before going SF.
I would have guessed the same thing as well, but it turns out I'd have been wrong. GEN Schoomaker appears to have originally been Armor Branch!
His bio indicates he is a graduate of the Armor Officer Basic Course, but his first assignment was as Recon Plt Leader with 2nd Bn, 4th Infantry in Ft Campbell, KY. From there the unit evidently deployed to Germany, as his next assignment was as Rifle Company Commander, C Company, 2nd Bn 4th Inf in Germany. While in Germany, he transferred to the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment where he was an Assistant S-3, an S-4, and then Troop Commander of C Troop, 1st Squadron, 2nd ACR. After that he was the S-3 of 1st Bn 73rd Armor in the 2nd Inf Division in Korea.
It doesn't specifically state when he attended the Q course, but it's safe to assume it was in 1978 (nine years after he was commissioned), because at that point he went to Ft Bragg where he had his first SF assignment with 1st SF Operational Detachment.
Oddly enough, once he went SF, he didn't stay exclusively in that arena. He served as XO of 2nd Squadron, 2nd ACR back in Germany, as well as Assistant Division Commander of 1st CAV Division in Fort Hood, TX. But he did have plenty of Special Ops assignments from Major through General.
To me, however, the most unusual aspect of his career is the fact that having retired from Active Duty in December of 2000, he was recalled in August of 2003 to become the Chief of Staff.
I can't say when, if ever, a General has been recalled from retirement to become the Chief of Staff, but I'm betting you don't need too many fingers to count how often THAT'S happened!!
Tom
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 01:51 AM UTC
I guess all his time in Infantry jobs is what stuck in my head. Definitely a diverse carreer. He is one of the few who have been called back to active duty for a high level job after retiring. Guess he was a senior Captain when he went SF as well.
md72
#439
Joined: November 05, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 02:37 AM UTC
on the SF entry thing.
Back in the '60's didn't you have to be a sargeant, E5 or 6 and on your second hitch before you could even be considered for the training? When did they go to "direct" entry?
Back in the '60's didn't you have to be a sargeant, E5 or 6 and on your second hitch before you could even be considered for the training? When did they go to "direct" entry?
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 03:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Guess he was a senior Captain when he went SF as well.
Absolutely CORRECT!!
He was assigned to Ft. Bragg in Feb 1978, and promoted to Major on 13 Jul 1979.
He was also in that 1969 year group which made 1LT in 12 months and CPT in another 12. Promotions had returned to a more "leisurely" pace by the time he made Major, so having gotten his first two promotions in two years, the poor guy had to wait 8 years for his next one.
Can you imagine most officers with 24 months TIS as a CPT?
I arrived in Baumholder in October of 1972, 3 years and 4 months after the class of 1969 graduated, and my first BC (and two others in the BN) were all WP from that class with 16 months TIG at a point in their career that most officers today probably haven't even been promoted to CPT.
Tom
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 04:49 AM UTC
Yup, short TIS to CPT = little experience. We almost went back to that a few years ago. It was 36 mos. TIS to CPT, 18 mos. TIG as 2LT, 18 as 1LT. It was really bad for guys who were Military Junior College commissionees. They would do two years at a Mil Jr Coll, then get commisiioned and be in a NG unit while completing their Bachelors at a full university. They would come out of OBC and pin on CPT in about 6 mos. How does that sound? Luckily, that has gone away and we are back to 48 mos. to CPT, same as it was when I made it. However, they have now sped up promotions to MAJ, after my year group of course. Currently, YG 97 guys are pinning on at the 8-9 yr mark. I was due course with 10 yrs, 6 mos to MAJ. Crazy how it works out.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 06:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
on the SF entry thing.
Back in the '60's didn't you have to be a sargeant, E5 or 6 and on your second hitch before you could even be considered for the training? When did they go to "direct" entry?
That is absolutely correct. Possibly even E4(P). However, SF was very unpopular for a period of time and recruitment was difficult. Not sure when direct entry started, but it was certainly in place by May of '82. The program ended a few years later but within the last few years has been reinstated. A big push has been made for minority recruitment as well, but for some reason the demographic remains about the same.
Direct entry may not seem the greatest idea for SF, but it's like qualifying at basic. Guys who had never fired a weapon in their lives were often the best shots, as they didn't have to unlearn bad habits. Nothing wrong with conventional units, but once you get caught up in a conventional mindset, it's hard to unlearn. I still hear "Well back in the 82nd we did..."
There are a few guys in my company right now who were not even born when I went through the Q course, and they're a great asset, plus with the addition of language as part of the course, they're coming out more ready to perform certain missions than ever.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Friday, March 31, 2006 - 03:27 AM UTC
Think, that's bad, consider the schedule I went by for my time in the Reserves:
Promotion to 1LT 3 years TIG
Promotion to CPT 4 years TIG (7 years TIS)
Promotion to MAJ 7 years TIG (14 years TIS)
Promotion to LTC 7 years TIG (21 years TIS)
Promotion to COL (If you're LUCKY) 5 years TIG (26 years TIS)
The Reserve Officers Personnel Management Act (ROPMA) made a lot of changes to bring the promotion timing more in line with the AC, but most of my contemporaries found ourselves getting promoted and maxing out on the years of service on the pay scale since that was set up for the AC schedule.
Tom
Promotion to 1LT 3 years TIG
Promotion to CPT 4 years TIG (7 years TIS)
Promotion to MAJ 7 years TIG (14 years TIS)
Promotion to LTC 7 years TIG (21 years TIS)
Promotion to COL (If you're LUCKY) 5 years TIG (26 years TIS)
The Reserve Officers Personnel Management Act (ROPMA) made a lot of changes to bring the promotion timing more in line with the AC, but most of my contemporaries found ourselves getting promoted and maxing out on the years of service on the pay scale since that was set up for the AC schedule.
Tom
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 31, 2006 - 05:15 AM UTC
That's the same system I was under. It seemed you were a Captain forever. I did't stay in long enough to make LTC. I'm glad they reverted back to 24 months at each LT level...gives you a chance to season
Tom is that the same Strock that used to dive off the 4th stoop into the laundry truck? He was a legend. We had John Strock in our class and he wanted to duplicate his older brothers feat. Problem was, they strung wire across the top of the laundry truck and not even crazy Strock was going for that.
Tom is that the same Strock that used to dive off the 4th stoop into the laundry truck? He was a legend. We had John Strock in our class and he wanted to duplicate his older brothers feat. Problem was, they strung wire across the top of the laundry truck and not even crazy Strock was going for that.thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 01:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
While I'm sure he's not too anxious to publicize it, yes it is in fact the same one. And you're right, he was indeed a legend!!
He is a Brother Rat of the class of 1970 and was there for MOST of my first two years. And while not TOO much is made of it, he was "asked" to leave by the Institue due to his wild antics and didn't graduate with his class.
What you'll discover if you look over his bio is interesting. He is in fact a graduate of VMI, but his source of commission is OCS and his date of commission is 12 Jul 1972. I believe that he enlisted in the Army after he left, and at some time after that (it may in fact have actually been after he was commissioned) he approached VMI and asked that he be allowed to finish the courses he needed to graduate. VMI to its great credit said yes, and he finished up his last semester (but not in barracks) and was given his diploma. If his brother John is one of your BRs he probably knows the whole story.
All is definitely forgiven between him and VMI. While they don't say that he is a graduate of the class of 1970, (technically he isn't), he is proudly claimed as a graduate of VMI. He's been invited for several years not (including last May) to be the Army Commissioning Officer at Finals.
Like many other cases, he's an example that "zero tolerance" especially for cadets and junior officers may really be a dumb idea as some folks are just late bloomers.
I believe that it was either Halsey or Nimitz who as an Ensign or JG was OOD and ran his ship aground. We could have lost a terrific leader had his chain of command simply decided to toss him because that was "required" under a zero tolerance policy.
Tom
newsavedone
Joined: March 03, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 02:44 PM UTC
I spent 20 years in USAF, and retired as E7 (Master Sergent) As I remember, and my old hand book confirms, a First Sergent can be E4 thru E9, and is the enlisted "go between" the Commander, and his assigned troops. The more personnel in a unit, the higher the rank of a First usaully is. His main job when I was active was to get you out of jail downtown, and keep track of the drugy's untill processed out. (read as baby sitter) It takes a mature, concerned individual to do the job normally, althou I do remember one old E8 in Philippines who was a bigger drunk than me, and a hazzard to anyone meeting him in the street when he was drinking. 
md72
#439
Joined: November 05, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 06:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
believe that it was either Halsey or Nimitz who as an Ensign or JG was OOD
Don't know about Halsey, but, Nimitz definately was court martialed over running the ship aground in the Phillipines in the early 1900's. Under "Reefs and Shoals", he should have been drummed out of the Navy, but the CO decided to keep him in.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 06:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
... As I remember, and my old hand book confirms, a First Sergent can be E4 thru E9,...
Maybe in the Air Force, but not that way in the Army. First Sergeant is an actual duty position and requires an E8 to fill the slot. Only Companies, Batteries, Troops, etc. have First Sergeants. There are NCOs at each level (Section Chief, PLT SGT, etc.), but they are not 1SGs. The 1SG is the Commander's right hand man. He is the senior enlisted man in the battery and the Commander's sounding board and assists him in leading the battery. A good Commander/First Sergeant relationship can make or break a unit. Definitely much more than a go-between the troops and the Commander. I had a couple great 1SGs when I commanded. Couldn't have done it without them.
badger66
Joined: April 09, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 07:14 PM UTC
Correct Gino
It takes a special man to wear the diamond I wore it for five years.
It takes a special man to wear the diamond I wore it for five years.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
KitMaker: 210 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 06:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text... As I remember, and my old hand book confirms, a First Sergent can be E4 thru E9,...
Maybe in the Air Force, but not that way in the Army. First Sergeant is an actual duty position and requires an E8 to fill the slot. Only Companies, Batteries, Troops, etc. have First Sergeants. There are NCOs at each level (Section Chief, PLT SGT, etc.), but they are not 1SGs. The 1SG is the Commander's right hand man. He is the senior enlisted man in the battery and the Commander's sounding board and assists him in leading the battery. A good Commander/First Sergeant relationship can make or break a unit. Definitely much more than a go-between the troops and the Commander. I had a couple great 1SGs when I commanded. Couldn't have done it without them.
It must be same in the Marnie Artillery battery unit, when my son's father was a Sgt the CO would lend him his( Captain) bares so he could drive the Lt down to Da-Nang to go to the Officers Mess at China Beach. No one ever noticed a Captain driving a Lt around!
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