Here is the start of my Welcome to the Nam. Still have a lot of details to go but I think you can see what I want to develop. Notice I didn't use any of the parts for the gunshield. It was loosely based on a pic that came from HeavyArty.

I do have a question. Is it ok to put the shells on the dirt? Would it be better to put a tarp under the shells? Do they keep them in the box until they need it?

Hi Alan,

To answer your question, as I had been living in Nam before 1975 nearby a ARVN 105mm Artillery Fire Base in the 4th ARVN Military Corp not so far from Dong Tam Camp - The US 9th Infantry Division + Navy Brown Water units, I saw that the soldiers prepared the shells out of the wooden boxes and put them over PSP plates (material for building primary airfield) or on the wood palett and covered them with the poncho, never on the dirty mud.

HTH.

Agreed. You want to keep them as clean as possible. They woud be placed off the ground on a tarp or the likes. Usually, 4-5 rounds are left out and readied for firing at a time. The rest are left in their wooden box and tootsie roll sleeve (tar paper tube) till needed.

I like where this one is going. Although its in the early stages..i can tell you are well on your way to a great dio. Keep up the good work..and definately keep us posted. (++)

Looks like youre off to a good start Alan. Howitzer looks great.

Hey folks! I'm getting brain freeze about what to do next. I think I am going to add some wood planks around the perimeter of the emplacement and push up more dirt to form a low mound.

I think I also want to add some signs or markers that show the degrees of a circle for quick reference when turning the gun.

Other than the usual assortment of trash and Playboy pinups, what else would an arty crew do to make life comfortable?

I've seen some Pics of Enplacements w/ small bunkers make from crates & Sandbags.....it'd keep you out of the Sun / Rain......

The quick-referance azimuth markers were wooden stakes with the direction in 4-digit #'s in mils scale(artillery way of breaking up the circle for more accuracy, ther are 17 mils to 1 degree, 6400mils in a circle), such as 6400 N, 1600 E, 3200 S, 4800 W. Wooden bunkers made from ammo pallets for storing rounds and keeping them dry would be good too. Instead of wood, the sides would most likely have been built up with sand bags too. It's coming along well. Keep us posted.

What would be a good interval for placing the azimuth markers? Would every 10degrees (170mils) be good spacing? Or should I just keep the four compass points as in your example 6400N 1600E 3200S 4800W?

I would go with every 800 mils. That will give you the cardinal directions and a post between each. Also, primary azimuth of fire is always set at 3200 mils on the gun, regardless of which compass direction it is.

Here are my upgrades based on your suggestions. I carved out some of the groundwork and installed a bunker of corrogated sheets. The original picture looks like there was a diamondplate matt under the howitzer but since I couldn't find any plastic diamondplate I went with corrogated sheets. I also built up some of the dirt around the perimeter. I wanted to make a ring of sandbags but my LHS was out of A/B Putty and Milliput and all sorts of other putties!!! Can you believe that?? No diamondplate sheets and no putty. Time for a new LHS.....

Looks even better. Keep it up. It is turning out really well.

That's off to a good start. As for the markers, the cardinal directions aren't a bad idea, but just as with a fighting position, you'll have primary and secondary sectors of fire no fire zones, and generally a FPLF-final protective line of fire, in one or more directions. The whole METTT-C thing comes into play again but you'd probably want to show some of these as well-whichever increments used would be totally up to you and could not be considered incorrect.
When laying Ex Warsaw Pact guns, the direction laid was always 3100 mils, regardless of it's actual cardinal direction. I can't remember if this holds true for US guns at 3200 but I think it does.

OK you artillery guys. These markers are beginning to kick my azimuth a million mils!!

I think I am starting to understand the concept. In layman’s terms Mils is the direction you want to turn the gun. I think somehow 3200 (US) is considered the starting reference point and all the turns are based from a starting point of 3200. FPLF must indicate a direction where there is something you don’t want to shoot (perhaps a friendly base or something).
So a gun told to fire at 1600 would turn the gun to that marker and fire at whatever range given unless it was in a protected zone.

Anyway, in the dio I would assume that the troops would not keep such a “neat and clean” position so I am just going to poke some sticks in the ground and let the viewer figure out how many mils or what direction they mean. Since the sticks are so tiny I don’t think I could print the mils on them anyway. Therefore they will just have to be estimated representations and not carefully measured markers.

The only shells I have available are the ones that come with the Italeri 105mm kit. What would a 105mm shell look like during Nam? I have some pics of shells with big brass bases (I think these are WW2.) I cna't tell exactly but in HeavyArty's ref pic above it looks like the shells are olive drab with writing and stripes. The one in the soldier's hand might have a brass casing but it could also just be glare.

You basically have it on the mils and stakes. The FPLF is a last ditch technique that has all the guns cross and/or create interlocking fired, basically a wall of steel. It is used as your last defense or that of another unit to keep them from being overrun.

105mm rounds are still the same as they were in WWII. They have a lower brass casing and the upper portion is OD green. There is yellow writing that gives the shell type and weight, in squares (more artillery speak) 2 squares is standard 105 weight, about 48 pounds. Fuse on the tip is a metallic color.

Here are a few examples.

Just the upper shell end. Yellow band denotes a specific type of ammo, can't remember which one though. I haven't played with 105mm pop guns in a while.

Dud


Verlinden set that shows different types and some still in their cases, etc.

Actually that should say the base deflection (not azimuth) is 3200 mils. (Can you tell I taught Gunnery?)

And somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory I seem to recall that the base deflection for the M101 series was actually not 3200, but 2800. I gotta see if I can find that somewhere.


EDIT: common deflection
the deflection corresponding to the azimuth of fire that the FDC has input into the BCS and BUCS. The common deflection for all weapons with an M100-series sight is 3200. For the M101A1 it is 2800.


But in Gino's defense, he's WAY too young to have ever seen the old series sights!!!




But the AZIMUTH references would probably be just as Gino said, cardinal directions, and in the middle of each one as well, so ever 800 mils or 45 degrees.

Tom

Well I am having a lot of fun building this one. It's so simple yet so much detail can be added. I just want to leave work right now and get home to work on it but alas I cannot do that!!

Hope you Big Gunners are having fun watching me try and learn this stuff. Thanks

Tom, yup, gotta remember, I wasn't around when you were training on the trebuchet either. :-) :-)

Thanks for the backup, as usual.

As Gino said, the 105mm artillery ammuntion is just about exactly the same as it was in WW II. The round comes inside a tubular packing case and is known specifically as "semi-fixed". Unlike a "bullet" where the projectile is fixed onto the shell casing (which has a very precise amount of powder loose inside), the projectile is NOT crimped by the shell casing. Inside the casing are several bags of powder (charges). Based on the desired range, the FDC will determine what charge to use (the more powder the higher the muzzle velocity and the farther the range). If anything less than maximum is commanded, the appropriate cannoneer will remove the bags not required and replace the shell. If I recall, a 105mm had a max of charge 5, and each bag was numbered 1 - 5. If you were ordered to fire charge "3", you would always remove the bags numbered 4 and 5. Since the bags were NOT all the same you had to get that right, or your round would NOT hit where it was supposed to..... NOT good.

Don't know how it's done today, and it may NOT have been done this way in combat, but the practice in the early 70's was that once the charge had been announced, and the excess bags remove, that cannoneer would immediately proceed to the powder pit, approx 50 -100 meters behind the piece and stand there hold up the excess bags so that the safety officer could verify that the correct charge was being fired. Once the round left the tube, the powder man would drop the bags into the pit. At the end of the day or when you displaced, we would line up ALL the excess bags in one line, break open the one down wind, and burn up all the extra charges, as they couldn't be reused and you were not supposed to turn them in. I'm guessing that in this "green" age, that doesn't happen any more.

Once you moved to 155mm ammo, that was "separate loading", meaning the projectiles came in one "lot" and the powder came in different "lots". The powder bags were essentialy the same, only went up to either 5, 7 or 8 depending on whether you were shooting "white bag" or "green bag". The lots of shells and powder could be inter mixed, EXCEPT that each mission would specify which if you had both. A charge 5 Green and a charge 5 White would NOT hit in exactly the same spot! The projectile would be loaded and rammed (making the seal) and then the appropriate group of powder charges loaded "separately". Same rules on counting and holding up the bags were used.

Like I said, I don't know if the powder man held up the charges behind the piece in combat, but it would make a great diaorama with the Number 1 man with a strain on the lanyard, the Chief of section behind the piece with his arm in the air, and the powder man behind hold up the bags, at the instant before firing.

Tom

Yup, taught your ancestors in the legions how to use that bad boy!! :-) :-) :-)

Tom

I think that was due to the limitations on the old M12 sight, as it would be maxed out at 3200. The M114's base deflection was 2400 for the same reason.

And damn good training it was!!!

Same deal wih the handling of powder bags today. We still line them up and light them up too. Some posts have powder pits (3-walled concrete revetments) that you are supposed to burn them in. We usually just do it in the open though. Makes a hell of a show and all pretty colors too. In combat, we don't send the powder man back though, he just shows the Chief the left over charges, then throws them in a powder can (metal trash can or barrel) and they get burned as you leave the firing point, or left behind.

Hey Tom that was very interesting. How big are these charges for the 105mm? I assume they were not too big or heavy since they had to fit in the brass portion of the shell. Would they be like a softball sized bag? One man can handle 2 charges?==)

At what point does the brass and the projectile get mated together? Would they be prepared and set aside a lot of rounds for firing later? Would they be mated during firing? Would they mate just a few in advance since the range could be changing?

My Italeri kit has brass and projectile already mated an just wondering if I will have to put them in a rotory tool and grind them to shape

Each charge bag is about the size of a 2 lb bag of sugar, but not as square nor as thick, they are made out of cloth and have a piece of cloth (like a ribbon) connecting them. You cut/break the cloth ribbon and remove the ones not needed. Hence, it is called "cutting charge."




Usually, they are not readied for firing till the mission is received at the gun. If it is a multi-round mission, a few rounds may be readied ahead of time and laid aside too. Also, the charges can be added back in after the round is readied, it is still loose enough to remove the shell from the casing and add/remove more charges.




The Italeri rounds are pretty good as is. No need to modify them unless you want to show separate shells and casings. Empty casings can be made out of thinned plastic tubing with round endcaps. Spent .22 cal bullet casings are pretty close too.

Since the 105mm round comes as one assembly in the cardboard packing tube (which come two rounds to the box if I remember correctly), they are already together, and as I said the round is not crimped by the casing. It's very easy to lift off the round, grab the excess charges not called for and take them out of the brass shell casing. As Gino said, they are all connected by a thread in the 105mm and they are stacked with the highest number on the top. Good practice would be to leave all the charges in until you get a fire mission, and only when YOUR piece gets a specific fire command should any rounds be prepared for firing.

At that point, you remove the projectile, pull out the extra charge (or whatever) for only the number of rounds the fire command to your gun is. The easiest way is to place the projectile back into the casing with the extra bags dangling out and then give a quick "pull" and the casing edge will cut the string separating the excess charges.

As GIno said, if you HAVE to, it's very easy to take the projectile back off and put the bags back in loose, it absolutely makes no difference if they have been taken out.....unless they get wet!!! (The string serves no REAL function other than to keep all the bags together before you prepare the round, and is combusted with the bags and powder when you fire anyway). But good technique is to only prepare the rounds that were specifically called for on your piece with a fire command.

The biggest difference in a diorama depicting a 105mm, is that you WOULD have a lot of the empty brass shell cases lying around while you were firing. I'm not so sure that .22s would work, as that comes out to be a scale equivalent of 195mm, so they'd be too big around I think.


Separate loading ammo (155mm) is different in that the bags have a set of cloth "straps" which keep the whole thing together when you take the powder out of the powder canister. I think that either AFV or Verlinden has an example of that type of powder charges.

Those individual bags are usually larger than a soft ball, and again each bag is numbered individually. BUT separate loading powder DOES have a red "igniter pad" (faster burning than the regular powder) on the "bottom". Since that's what you want the "primer" to ignite first, and it thus should be at the back end of the breech, our #1 cannoneers were trained to always call out, "I see red", before he closed the breech to make sure the power was in correctly. Probably not unsafe, but for sure would affect accuracy.

In my units the powder was absolutely kept inside the canister until a fire command was sent, and only then taken out and the excess bags removed.

I'd have to go back and look at my Firing Table books to get a better answer, but on a 155mm, firing the tube at the exact same elevation, but changing the charge by one bag will make a significant difference in the distance the projo travels.

One trivial tidbit is that one thing that you should NEVER do in the middle of any single Fire Mission is to change the charge. You can imagine why! The FDC's job is to determine which charge is the best for the range to the target and order that for the duration of that mission.

Lower charges result in lower muzzle velocity (less power) and therefore require a greater "elevation" to reach the same distance (if it even can). And that also means a (slightly) longer time of flight AND a slightly easier task for the enemy to figure out where the rounds came from. So you want to pick a charge where the range to the target is about in the middle (or slightly less than) the limits for the charge.

The other thing with separate loading ammo, is that it was common to have not only a mixture of "white bag" and "green bag" powder, but you'd also often have different "lots" of either type. The variation within a lot is essentially zero, but from one lot to the next could be a consistent 30 -40 meters. If you had the time, you'd do special missions to figure out these differences and you could correct for that. For any GIVEN mission it wouldn't make any difference WHICH powder lot you specified, but you always had specify WHICH one you wanted to shoot, not SWITCH during the mission, and to keep track of exactly how much of each lot was on each gun.


God, I sure did love being an FDO!!!!

Tom