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Where Armorama group builds can be discussed, organized, and updates posted.
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Official Suez Stripes 50 Years thread
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 23, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 03:04 PM UTC
Longknife wrote:
Quoted Text

Both are blue-tan-grey, but there it ends. One has five equally wide stripes y-b-y-b-y and a yellow spinner and the other has a wide yellow stripe with black edges, and on to pf that - a red spinner.

Hi Tony! You might get some help at http://www.wings48.com/Mustang.shtml. Lots of profiles and pictures of Israeli Mustangs. Both stripe versions seem to have been applied. This one, for example, with napalm bombs and 5" rockets under the wings, was stationed at Tel-Nof in 1956.



I hope that the site gives you enough info. Otherwise, the other guys in our Mustang building community should be able to help!


Longknife also wrote:
Quoted Text

By the way, I found an old pic of british Sea Furys and Fairey Fireflies with stripes! Could that be from here, or was that Korea?

I don't think they were part of the Suez campaign, I'm afraid. Check here.

18Bravo wrote:
Quoted Text

I knew I'd end up going with the Trumpeter 1/24 version.

That's just so cool! I'm really looking forward to some progress shots of that one! It must be huge! :-)

Cheers!
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 05:12 PM UTC
Good. Now I know what to do. I'll go artistic! The blue-tan goes soo nice with the stripes, and a red spinner is just the touch to make her look more like a racer than a warbird. Hopefully noone will be able to dig up a photo to prove me wrong afterwards.

I've also dug up a nice list of units, airfields/carrier placement and type of a/c for the opening stage of the conflict. Look at http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/isreal/suezsinai1956airorbat.html and you'll see who flew what from where.
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 05:29 PM UTC
Phew. Got a boring day at work, so here´s links to two other sites of interest. Sea Hawk anyone?

http://www.aeroplaneart.com.au/JSJ_Fleet_Air_Arm.htm

http://www.aeroplaneart.com.au/JSJ_Fleet_Air_Arm_2.htm

And I saw a Westland Dragonfly and a Gannet too, that would fit in the theme here. Without stripes, but still.
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 23, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 02:30 AM UTC
LongKnife wrote;
Quoted Text

Phew. Got a boring day at work, so here´s links to two other sites of interest. Sea Hawk anyone?

Wow! There are some great pics on those links, Tony! Like this Sea Hawk over the Al Maza airfield south of Cairo:

I don't want to be rude, but I hope that you'll have more "boring days" at work!! :-)

Cheers!
18Bravo
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Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 08:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good. Now I know what to do. I'll go artistic! The blue-tan goes soo nice with the stripes, and a red spinner is just the touch to make her look more like a racer than a warbird. Hopefully noone will be able to dig up a photo to prove me wrong afterwards.

I've also dug up a nice list of units, airfields/carrier placement and type of a/c for the opening stage of the conflict. Look at http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/isreal/suezsinai1956airorbat.html and you'll see who flew what from where.


I've seen your #38 with red spinner and yellow, on the same website. Looks like the museum might be having some fun at our expense.
I've got the same problem. The color plate PolarBear posted, and the two in my references, show #19 with a yellow spinner. It sure looks red in the crash photo though. Plus there's an additional stripe outboard of the roundel. No idea what color it is
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
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Posted: Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 11:45 AM UTC
I'll take a look in my reference book of swedish Mustangs. There are a few pictures of downed israeli Mustangs there. Maybe even a color pic of the #19, but I'm not sure. You'll here from me again on monday.

This is rather funny though. When I was a kid (and then we talk watching B 52's bomb North Vietnam on the evening news) I was often pissed of by the fact that I had no real way to get reference material for the planes I built. At least not the way as I could see the pros do in magazines. Nowadays when we got the whole internet to dig in, you soon realize that if you double the amount of info, you triple the amount of counterdictions.

I will probably have to form a comment to Murphys Law regarding that :-)
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
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Posted: Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 05:01 PM UTC
Ok. Best not to disappoint people, so I managed a boring hour in the wonderful land of motorcycle engineering again.

You´ve probably seen this place, but for Israeli aircraft I recommend Serge batussovs site. I lost the link a while ago, but now I found it again.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7934/
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
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Posted: Friday, May 05, 2006 - 02:22 AM UTC
Yet another great link, Tony!

I wonder if Magnus has seen this?



Regarding your #38 Mustang, I've tried to find out more but to no avail. I think that this is the most common stripe during Suez, but we know that #19 had the other kind... Just trust your instincts, Tony!



Cheers!

18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, May 05, 2006 - 03:18 AM UTC
If you can find written accunts of which squadron yours belonged to, Scorpion=yellow spinner. Not Scorpion=red spinner.
I have a different question now. Was the Mustang floor really wood colored?
And I'm going to assume my Trumpeter P-51D has a Packard engine. Any detailed photos of the plubing? I can only find it for the Allison.
By the way, lots of interesting info here:
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avp512.html
It would be cool if mine was built in Ft. Worth, where I lived for many years.

Update: I was being too specific with my search parameters. Found a good site for the engine:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2005/12/images/walkaround_p51_d_036_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2005/12/stuff_eng_detail_p51d_03.htm&h=335&w=500&sz=42&hl=en&start=22&tbnid=RQqQZlgp2LNW9M:&tbnh=85&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bsite:www.ipmsstockholm.org%2Bengine%2Bp-51d%2B%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D30%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
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Posted: Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 12:35 PM UTC
PolarBear: I found out that another of my P 51's has a loose prop, with yellow spinner, so I got the possibility to try both yellow and red.

Bravo18: As I recall the Allison was lifted out of the Mustang from the P 51 B/C-models, so there was packards in the D's. As for the floors I've seen both wood and others. My guess is that the pics on the net of a wooden floor is from a recently rebuilt plane, so I will go for painted. However, I've seen both black and interior green, so I'm not sure which is most correct. For my Mustang I'll choose green, since that lifts up detail a bit.

About crash pics of #19 I was too optimistic. I only had b/w of #73, upside down, in my book of swedish Mustangs.
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 03:48 PM UTC
Bravo18: I found a good site with a walkaround on a P 51 D without engine cowlings. Also good pics of wheel wells and intakes. It's a restored machine, so as allways: colours might differ a little from original. Most parts around the engine looks right enough though.

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/domeric_barbot/p-51d_walk_1.htm

For everyone else: That one has a LOT of other good walkarounds.

I've also got quite a few cockpit photos from different aircraft, so give me an e-mailadress and I'll mail you the lot.
18Bravo
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Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 02:48 AM UTC
Thanks for that link. Those pics, along with the ones I found, lead to a new question:
Was anodized blue tubing and fittings something you'd see in 1956? It seems to me to be more of a trick item, unless of course certain systems were color coded.
As for the floor, I found several pics of restored airctraft with the wood, some light, some dark, so I'll choose something that looks appropriately weathered. That is, if I just get over the initial awe of opening the Trumpeter kit. I'm just glad I won't be using about half of the parts.
Clanky44
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: September 15, 2005
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Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 04:04 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc,

Any sightings of the Wyvern along the French coast yet?!?
TedMamere
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Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
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Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Jean-Luc,

Any sightings of the Wyvern along the French coast yet?!?


Hi Frank!

No... doh! But we had a long week-end (8th May celebrations) so it may arrive this week.
I will tell you when the kit is in my hands!

Thanks!

Jean-Luc
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
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Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 05:13 PM UTC
18Bravo: The blue tubing is definitely a modern addition. They vere probably in steel originally,or painted alu, but if you buy modern engine piping and connections for a modern racing engine, you'll end up with anodizing. It's both cheaper and lighter, and when you look at motorcycle brakes and cooling systems for instance - also a lot cooler, right!

I've also seen a replacement Merlin engine in the Duxford museum last year, and that one was built and wired first, and painted flat black afterwards, over wires, screwheads and everything. I see no reason why that shouldn't be possible in a plane either. An engine after all, would not live an entire airframes life, unless it got shot down.

After a few years on the line, and especially after service in different airforces, the planes are bound to differ from original. At least that is my excuse for leaving the perfect but hard road sometimes.
magnusf
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Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:32 PM UTC
Hello there Suez friends!

I have been trying to figure out how this place works for the last few days and now I feel ready to take the plunge!

PolarBear recruited me to this group build and I will go for two aircraft to start with: An Israeli T-6 and a (very mainstream, I know) Wyvern, both in 1/72 scale.

I got this link from PolarBear showing a T-6 from the Suez conflict.

Is there anybody who knows more of this particular aircraft? And what kind of armament did they use? Those rocket rails look familiar, are they of US origin?

Got to get that German marked P-51B off the workbench tonight, then on to the T-6!

Regards

Magnus
GaryKato
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Posted: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 02:52 AM UTC
From "Wings Over Suez" by Brian Cull, the Harvards were from the Flying School and were formed into 140 Squadron for the war. They used .50cal machine guns, 80mm rockets, and 500lb bombs in the ground attack role.
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 23, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 02:07 PM UTC
MagnusF wrote:
Quoted Text

Those rocket rails look familiar, are they of US origin?

Hi there, Magnus! Welcome to Armorama!

I don't know about the Harvard, but this photo of a P-51D from the same era could perhaps give you some clues? The launchers seem to be of another type, though...



The picture is found in Hellströms "J26 Mustang", page 165. The caption reads"The Suez crisis in 1956. Note that the rockets are of British rather than US type".

There is another - but smaller - picture on the same page with a frontal view of an Israeli Mustang fitted with rocket launchers.

Cheers!

Ps. If that P-51B turns out nice, you might want to enter it in the MoM (Check out MoM for May)
bf443
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JAC HOBBIES
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Posted: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 09:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Is there anybody who knows more of this particular aircraft? And what kind of armament did they use? Those rocket rails look familiar, are they of US origin?


Hi Magnus,

I think they are modified British rails. American aircraft usually have Zero Length launchers (No rails).

Sincerely,
Brian
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 23, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 12:33 AM UTC
Just wanted to let you guys know that Xtradecals is releasing 1/48 scale markings for RAF Suez Crisis E.E. Canberra B.2s; see here. Looks rather nice!
Just a thought!

Anyone started building yet? I would love to see some pictures!

Personally, I'm still waiting for my Vampire to arrive from Hannants...

Cheers!
magnusf
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Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think they are modified British rails. American aircraft usually have Zero Length launchers (No rails).


What worries me is the description of the rockets as "80 mm". The only kind of rockets that I know of that are officially called "80 mm" are German or Russian! If they were British they would probably be called "3 in". On the other hand, 3 inches is 76.2 mm which, with a bit of fantasy, can be rounded to 80 mm.

Since the British 3 in rocket was used by the Mustangs, there is a reasonable chance that they were used by the T6s as well. At least it is a weapon that we know was available to IAF at that time!

Have any of you seen a photo of that particular aircraft, or any T6 from Suez by the way?

Does this qualify as "started building" ?



Regards

Magnus
GaryKato
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California, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 02:34 PM UTC
God help me, I've signed up for this campaign. I'm hoping for a Grand Slam, but I'll be happy to finish one. It's been decades since I finished an aircraft kit. Here are my candidates (all in 1/72):

UK: Airfix Sea Hawk. Very old, primitive kit.
France: Airfix F-84F Thunderstreak
Israel: Airfix Super Mystere IV
Egypt: Airfix Il-28

Somehow, it all turned out to be Airfix. If the Il-28 is too much for me, I might substitue a Heller Vampire. I was tempted to do a Matchbox Meteor NF.13, but I soo wanted to save that kit to do the much prettier NF.14.

I just got the Warpaint series for the Meteor and Sea Hawk and wished they had better pics of the interiors. The one tiny washed out picture of the Sea Hawk cockpit is totally useless.
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 05:01 PM UTC
Hi there. You've apparently got yourself something to keep you off the lawnmower this summer.

I took a little look on the net and found a great site for pics of the Seahawk cockpits. I'm not sure the Mk is the right one, but the pics are enough for you to wish for a 1:24 model in stead.

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/seahawk/cockpit.html

By the way, I google, and if the search looks good I skip the links and go for "Images". That way you only see the goodies.
PolarBear
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 23, 2005
KitMaker: 820 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 07:49 PM UTC
GaryKato wrote:
Quoted Text

God help me, I've signed up for this campaign.

Great to have you on board, GaryKato! Welcome!

I must commend you on your superb choice of aircraft! I've pleaded vigorously for both the Sea Hawk and the Il-28!!! Then you add the Thunderstreak, and top it all off with a Super Mystère!!! How great is that!?! I tip my hat and hope that you'll succeed in your attempt at a Grand Slam! The fact that it's all Airfix is a bonus! Unfortunately, there are no special ribbons for bravery beyond the call of duty! :-)

Personally, I got this in the mail today:


A little "duel in the sky" on it's own! The kits look excellent!!! All over sudden, I'm not so sad that my golf weekend got cancelled!

Cheers!

Ps. Magnus - Yes, that is definitely a progress shot! Keep us updated!

Ps2. I still hope to see a Noratlas, a Canberra and a Sikorsky S-55! And what's up with them AFV guys?
GaryKato
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California, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 09:31 PM UTC
Longknife, I have to read up but I think the FGA.6 is just what I need! I don't know what will take longer, scratching a cockpit or getting the tailplane and rudder to fit. Many thanks! I happen to like British aircraft so that web site is a real treasure chest! Many thanks!
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