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News Stories - Discuss This - Why Bother?
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 07:10 PM UTC
Jim,

Should the 'Discuss This' link in News Stories be removed?

I just linked in to the latest story of the Tasca 1/35 Firefly being a subject close to my heart.

Nice to hear it's being released and interest to find out any more information I find that a member is being attacked for providing some additional information which I'm sure he thought would be helpful and of interest.

What's the point in having a 'Discuss this' link if members can't add information to the story? If that means linking to somewhere else what's the problem with that?

No one is having a go at anyone, personally I'm sick to death of this cropping up every other time a News item comes out. Would it therefore be more appropriate to have either no 'Discuss This' link or to have a link to an open post that people can add any other information they might have too?

I ran a thread on this kit some time ago ,so the additional information was already on site and I was going to add it because some members gave explainations as to what might be what in language terms but I'm truely at the stage were I no longer bother to comment for fear of starting some kinda flame war.

Surely if anyone can add some information to a News Story that's good news, is my thought processs wrong here, I think not. In this age of WWW. communication we all get our information from a wide variety of sources. I cannot see that adding a link is in anyway either having a go at the poster of the thread or innappropriate.

If it is a problem, then get rid of the 'Discuss This' link and life can continue in a happy and pleasant way.

The News item was completely runined by the track it was taken down and it's not the first time I've seen that.

Some thoughts for consideration.

Cheers

Al

staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 07:46 PM UTC
Alan,
It didn't require much consideration on my part. We don't have a policy against posting links to related subjects in a topic and there was absolutely... let me repeat... absolutely nothing wrong with Lazlo's post. I have already taken corrective action by removing the offending post and all related posts. As well I have posted in the staff forum directly all staff members not to uni-laterally set policy for the site or network.

Thanks,
Jim
AlanL
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 08:22 PM UTC
Hi Jim,

Many thanks for you prompt response. That's what I had hoped to hear.

Cheers

Al
Pilgrim
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 10:05 PM UTC
Thanks Jim.
jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 10:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No one is having a go at anyone, personally I'm sick to death of this cropping up every other time a News item comes out.


And I (as the 'guilty' party in all this) am frankly sick to death of Reviews and News Stories being hijacked to fit a particular agenda. How many times (recently) has an announcement about an Axis kit release been turned into a flame-war by the same small group?

Probably, I should have responded more tactfully. However, where i'm sitting, i'm getting utterly tired of the 'But it's over on Site X' - if some people feel that we're doing such a bad job HERE, let them say so - or better still come up with some CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions.

IMO, this site is equal (if not superior) to others in quality of News and Reviews obviously, at the end of the day, the site user is the final arbiter....
AndyD
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 04:11 AM UTC
Staff Jim thanks for clearing (and cleaning) this up.

Jim Rae,
I think your taking it too personally. The links to other information sources about the same news are not attacks on you or the site. It's just modellers being modellers - why do we often amass different reference books covering the same topic. (I'm guilty, 10+ Russian armour books and counting) becuase we crave information about our subjects and our hobby!

That said I do feel a certain empathy with your plight - some of the fellows here would do well to remember the proverb "Don't shoot the messenger.." and stop using the news posts as a grandstand to force their opinons upon others.

I myself am most appreciative of your efforts and still consider the big A the first stop on the internet each day.
jRatz
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 06:22 AM UTC
Gee, I always miss the good ones <

But I do have a comment/suggestion/request that applies site-wide. Too many times there is a lead message that says "Something new from XYZ, click here to see it, and here to discuss it..."

When I click here to see it, I find it something I could care less about.

How about announcing the company & the subject in the lead message, then we can decide if we care about the details ?

Thanks for listening,
John
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 06:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gee, I always miss the good ones <

But I do have a comment/suggestion/request that applies site-wide. Too many times there is a lead message that says "Something new from XYZ, click here to see it, and here to discuss it..."

When I click here to see it, I find it something I could care less about.

How about announcing the company & the subject in the lead message, then we can decide if we care about the details ?

Thanks for listening,
John
Ditto, usually the title is something akin to "look here".
Gunny
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 03:10 PM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

Gee, I always miss the good ones <

But I do have a comment/suggestion/request that applies site-wide. Too many times there is a lead message that says "Something new from XYZ, click here to see it, and here to discuss it..."

When I click here to see it, I find it something I could care less about.

How about announcing the company & the subject in the lead message, then we can decide if we care about the details ?

Thanks for listening,
John





Quoted Text


Ditto, usually the title is something akin to "look here".



Hmmm...I've been watching this thread (as well as it's sibling in the Staff Forum) with interest, and have held silent until now. . .I'm going to have to disagree with you, mates, and to further post evidence in support of my disagreement, let's take a short walk through the "What's New" section of Armorama. . .


Quoted Text

1/35th Scale USMC AFV Update Sets
Just posted a big update on the USMC Specialist, HardCorps Models. There are three categories of new releases: 1/35th scale updates for the M4a3, 1/35th scale Decals and two new reference books. All the new releases have a common theme - the Battle of Iwo Jima and can be seen along with their corresponding images


1.) Quite explanatory to me. . .a big update from HardCorps Models featuring 1/35 scale AFV update sets. . .still interested, click on the link.


Quoted Text

1/35th Firefly From Tasca
Thanks to one of our contacts from Dragon models, we are able to bring images of a VERY surprising release - a 1/35th scale Firefly from the Japanese manufacturer, Tasca. No more details are availabl yet - consider this a 'teaser'!


2.) Second News story. . .still very apparent to me as to what the content of this story is, folks.


Quoted Text

LionRoar - Latest 1/35th Releases
Just posted, thanks to the thread in the forums, of the latest AM update sets from the Chinese company, Lionroar. There are Four new releases for four different subjects (or variants) and the story can be seen:


3.) Third News Story, again, the latest 1/35 scale updates from Lionroar. . .what's there to guess with these reports??

And so it goes on, all the way to the NEWS archives. . .what's the real problem, here, people??

I'm probably going to come under an attack here from somebody out there, as we are ALL humans here, with human emotions, and sometimes, these emotions are better off being kept at bay, and excercise a bit more caution and finesse by all parties, instead of "fanning the coals", so to speak. I completely agree with Jim Rae's original point, thread hijacking, that is, although the events that further unfolded should definitely be eliminated and avoided at all costs. . .
jimbrae
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 05:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

How about announcing the company & the subject in the lead message, then we can decide if we care about the details ?


Not entirely practical i'm afraid. The Title line for 'What's New' is much more restricted than the title for the News or Review title. As often as I can I do it but it isn't always practical....

Of course one click to link with the item isn't TOO time-consuming...

Since the objection seems to be the titles of the What's New threads , forgive my apparent stupidity, but aren't these a touch obvious? Here are the last four:


Quoted Text

Eduard - October Armor Update Sets

1/35th Scale USMC AFV Update Sets

1/35th Firefly From Tasca

Aber - Latest AM Releases
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 05:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Ditto, usually the title is something akin to "look here".



Hmmm...I've been watching this thread (as well as it's sibling in the Staff Forum) with interest, and have held silent until now. . .I'm going to have to disagree with you, mates, and to further post evidence in support of my disagreement, let's take a short walk through the "What's New" section of Armorama. . .


You're talking apples and oranges here Mark. The information in the "What's New" section is very good and complete. What we are referring to is the thread title posted in the forums that alerts readers to something in the "What's New" section.

Let's take a short walk through the proper path we are talking about...

Here is a news posting about Aber releases: Aber - Latest AM Releases. Other than the scale, can you see anywhere in the title or text what the news is about?

If there was at least a genre listed (WW2 German armor), it would give an interested party a reason to click the link. A modern armor or Allied builder may not care about the products at all.

Here is one that is done well: Cyber-Hobby Armorama 'Scoop'. It gives the reader the ability to make a quick decision on whether or not the subject interests them. It is not purposely vague in order to entice readers to view.
Teacher
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 05:56 PM UTC
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the titles of the 'What's New' topics. Firstly, we are limited as to the number of letters we can use. More so than a member posting a new topic since the html tags take up room. Secondly, the purpose of these particular titles is as News headlines.......and therefore they act as teasers, to draw the reader in to the story.

Vinnie
jimbrae
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 05:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here is a news posting about Aber releases: Aber - Latest AM Releases. Other than the scale, can you see anywhere in the title or text what the news is about?


Well, the AM releases from Aber and Eduard can't be 'specific' about the nationality of the subjects covered. As an example, the new Eduard releases have products which cover German, Australian, U.S. British and Russian (Czech as well if you count the 38 (t) sets)... VERY impractical...
Gunny
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 06:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the titles of the 'What's New' topics. Firstly, we are limited as to the number of letters we can use. More so than a member posting a new topic since the html tags take up room. Secondly, the purpose of these particular titles is as News headlines.......and therefore they act as teasers, to draw the reader in to the story.

Vinnie


BINGO!
Vinnie hit the proverbial nail on the noggin', with these words. . .aside from the space limitations, what has been, and still is, the emphasis of a News headline? The answer lies in Teacher's last sentence above, my friends, in plain, simple english.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 07:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the titles of the 'What's New' topics. Firstly, we are limited as to the number of letters we can use. More so than a member posting a new topic since the html tags take up room. Secondly, the purpose of these particular titles is as News headlines.......and therefore they act as teasers, to draw the reader in to the story.

Vinnie


BINGO!
Vinnie hit the proverbial nail on the noggin', with these words. . .aside from the space limitations, what has been, and still is, the emphasis of a News headline? The answer lies in Teacher's last sentence above, my friends, in plain, simple english.
I understand the limitations of the title topic of "What's New" in the forums. But in the body of the post, you can at least say what the items are.

In the examples I listed above, I agree that both give enough information in the topic title. The titles are fine, but when you click on the topic and open the thread, the text in the Aber post does not give any specific information on what the items are:


Quoted Text

The Polish AM company, Aber have just announced their latest releases for September/October. Two scales are covered in the new listings, 1/35th and 1/48th. The full story can be seen: Link to item


But the Cyber Hobby post has this information as well as a photo (nice, but not always necessary):


Quoted Text

Thanks to the DML subsidiary, Cyber Hobby, we are able to bring the first glimpse of a model which will be unveiled tommorow in Japan - 6350: Michael Wittmann''s Tiger I in 1/35th scale. More details to follow! Link to item


The second example is excellent information that relays what the item is.

The first example gives no information besides scale. Most of us have the institutional knowledge that Aber produces photo etched detail sets, but for some other manufacturer, you may not know whether the "latest releases" were resin, aluminum barrels, decals or whatever.

Do you see the differences?
Teacher
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 07:40 PM UTC
I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave previously. We want people to read the news story. In point of fact, Jim Starkweather has asked some time ago that we don't put photographs in 'What's New' News Topics, so that people will have to read the story, so he didn't think they were nice.
Vinnie
Jacques
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 08:38 PM UTC
Just a note from the sidelines, but the way things are being done in this regard seems to fall into being "tricked". I go to the forum, and see the headline...maybe it piques my interest, but usually it is along the lines of "Eduard October Releases." I know Eduard, I open it to take a look. Inside I find what has been stated, for the most part no real information but ANOTHER link to the news page. And off I go. I do get annoyed by this, I would prefer to just have a quick listing of what is coming out and then a link for more info if need be.

Intentions aside, it seems like we are puching hard for more article views to help promote ad space and vendor interest in the site. Call me Jaded (Hi Jaded!) but it tends to pull the joy out of the hobby that way. I know the practicalities of running the site and that requires nott only $$$ but also getting the newest info from the manufacturers, who only want to target the "hot" internet sites. I'm just saying that things might be swinging too far...
troubble27
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 08:39 PM UTC
LOL I almost cant believe you guys are even discussing this as an "issue". First off, let me agree with one of the previous posters here. This is undoubtedly the best modelling site on the internet. period. I have seen plenty of other modelling sites on the internet, and none of them are as well layed out, complete, up to date, or interactive as this one. a couple of them (I wont mention any names) you have to read through pages upon pages to "try" to find some new information. Here, you can search for information by category, keyword, news, etc. The way the site is is FINE. DONT CHANGE ANYTHING. As far as members bashing other members, I would say what my mother told me on my first day of Kindergarten..............."If you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all". Pretty simple rule most people follow here. As far as someone complaining about clicking on a new article and it not being what they expected, I would suggest using your "back" button to go back to the page you were at and keep looking. And if simply hitting the back button is a problem that irritates you, perhaps you need to get off the internet as the "issue" here is with the user, not the site. Again, great site, great job, and keep up the great work guys!
Teacher
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 08:59 PM UTC
Thanks Gary!

Vinnie
jimbrae
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 10:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just a note from the sidelines, but the way things are being done in this regard seems to fall into being "tricked". I go to the forum, and see the headline...maybe it piques my interest, but usually it is along the lines of "Eduard October Releases." I know Eduard, I open it to take a look. Inside I find what has been stated, for the most part no real information but ANOTHER link to the news page. And off I go. I do get annoyed by this, I would prefer to just have a quick listing of what is coming out and then a link for more info if need be.


Sorry Jacques but this would negate the function of the News Section totally. The reason the News section exists is to have a permament resource of new releases. If it was done in the forums, the stories would rapidly disappear...


Quoted Text

Intentions aside, it seems like we are puching hard for more article views to help promote ad space and vendor interest in the site.


Damn Right! We don't attract advertisers - the site closes. We don't attract MORE advertisers all the future plans for the site get put aside. The more advertisers we get, the more people see this as a one.-stop network
drabslab
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 10:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

LOL I almost cant believe you guys are even discussing this as an "issue". First off, let me agree with one of the previous posters here. This is undoubtedly the best modelling site on the internet. period.


I totally agree


Quoted Text


DONT CHANGE ANYTHING.


I can't agree with this however. The internet is an ever changing environment and each site, to remain succesful has to evolve (or die)


Quoted Text


As far as members bashing other members, I would say what my mother told me on my first day of Kindergarten..............."If you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all". Pretty simple rule most people follow here. As far as someone complaining about clicking on a new article and it not being what they expected, I would suggest using your "back" button to go back to the page you were at and keep looking. And if simply hitting the back button is a problem that irritates you, perhaps you need to get off the internet as the "issue" here is with the user, not the site.


I can't say this any better



Quoted Text


Again, great site, great job, and keep up the great work guys!



Again, I agree totally.



Sabot
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 10:08 PM UTC
My opinion on teasers (or any vague topic title), if it's not important enough for you to tell me what it is about, then it's not important enough for me to read.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 10:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just a note from the sidelines, but the way things are being done in this regard seems to fall into being "tricked". I go to the forum, and see the headline...maybe it piques my interest, but usually it is along the lines of "Eduard October Releases." I know Eduard, I open it to take a look. Inside I find what has been stated, for the most part no real information but ANOTHER link to the news page. And off I go. I do get annoyed by this, I would prefer to just have a quick listing of what is coming out and then a link for more info if need be.

Intentions aside, it seems like we are pushing hard for more article views to help promote ad space and vendor interest in the site. Call me Jaded (Hi Jaded!) but it tends to pull the joy out of the hobby that way. I know the practicalities of running the site and that requires nott only $$$ but also getting the newest info from the manufacturers, who only want to target the "hot" internet sites. I'm just saying that things might be swinging too far...


Doh....

Most of you have missed entirely what the point of the topic in the forum is for. It is FOR discussion. The only reason the topics EXISTS is for discussion. It's an auto-generated topic that duplicates some of the info seen on the What's New page and creates a topic intended for discussion of the news item.

If you want to avoid successive clicks I suggest everyone find them via the homepage, the news page or the What's New page.

Also I am actually on record many, many times in the past for asking people to submit (users) and publish (staffers) news titles that are very specific and not generalized in their descriptions of news items. The issue Vinnie raises with the photo is true because many news stories tend to be all about the images and I would rather people click through for the whole news story than see an image and get the impression that is all there is to the post.

Cheers,
Jim
bison44
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 11:01 PM UTC
Jim: If the purpose of the tread is to discuss the story, then why are guys getting slammed for posting other links etc about similar topics. It seems very natural that the discussion about a news story would involve alot of different opinions, or things/links people have seen on other sites and the thread almost always veers off course to talk about other topics raised by the original article.
Usually this isn't malicious, and if the discussion wanders it isn't shooting the messanger, but just the usual way discussions go. We all don't have to take this stuff so personal and turn it into a flame war. If the thread says discuss this, then the rank and file should be allowed to discuss it, without getting jumped on. Or the disclaimer should say "only positive, on topic replies wanted with no mention of other matters."

Teacher
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 11:06 PM UTC
Ryan, nobody should be 'slammed'. Sometimes it may have appeared to the originator of the topic to be bad manners but that's all. Policy has now been set and defined and the posting of links to other sites if pertinent is of course allowed, even encouraged, as it has always been.

Vinnie
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