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Armor/AFV: Techniques
From Weathering to making tent rolls, discuss it here.
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Depicting impact damage
007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:18 AM UTC
Hi all!

A good friend of mine is also a modelbuilder. He showed me an experimental method of making impact damage on a tank that I really have to show you all!

For those who want to try, here's the method:
- place model on save distance
- take air pumpgun
- target on tank
- pull the trigger

All impacts on this KV are real impact by little lead bullits...
The fun in it is that some holes have a real convincing "blow out" effect.

Try it only on models you are stuck with. The danger is the model will shatter in pieces. At least it's fun to do, he ensured me.

BTW: the rust is a mixture of cigaret ashes and different shades of red paint.











Paul
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:28 AM UTC
Sorry, the effect does not look too convincing to me. It looks more like metal that has rusted away, not hit by an AT gun or another tank shell. HEAT rounds don't leave that kind of effect. They leave a relatively smooth, small round hole; not one with thinned, jagged edges.
spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:33 AM UTC
But it still looks good as a rusted-away tank. Maybe the HEAT hits look like this after 20 years standing in the rain.
Erik67
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:37 AM UTC
I have to agree with Gino. I have fired a lot of Heat rounds and never got an effect like that. It looks like it has just rusted away.

Erik
Savoy19
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:37 AM UTC
The KV does look nice but looks more like Japanese armor that has sat in a jungle rotting away.
NebLWeffah
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:42 AM UTC
Cool 'rusted-out-hole' effect but they don't look like shell hits to me. Gino's right, shell hits will usually make a very neat hole going in....it's the damage that's done once the shell fragments and melts with bits and pieces whizzing around inside that will do the deed. I like the cigarette ash idea though, do you just mix it with the paint or is there a more elaborate technique here?


Bob
jimbrae
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 01:28 PM UTC
Emmm... is this thread for real? There have been dozens of articles published on this (and other sites) on damage and weathering. Not one, to my knowledge has mentioned BB guns....

Oh, try putting the mantlet on the KV the right way up - it improves the look immensely :-)
bison44
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 02:31 PM UTC
Hi Paul
I have to agree with the guys that the shell holes aren't real convincing, but I do like the completely rusted/rotted out old hulk effect you have created. And don't worry about the smug and condesending response (Is any kind of rude comment ok if you qualify it with I'm not being nasty? Just wondering). How are we all going to learn if we don't try new techniques and share them with others? I would like to hear more about how you got that rusted look.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 04:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

How are we all going to learn if we don't try new techniques and share them with others? I would like to hear more about how you got that rusted look.

Agreed! And as Paul said, it was his friend's 'experimental' method, and he has created a technique and finish that I have never seen before...
Very effective, and would probably be better received if there was no mention of artillery...
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Very effective, and would probably be better received if there was no mention of artillery...


Who mentioned artillery? No one. AT gun is Anti-Tank, not artillery, and HEAT is a High Explosive Anti-Tank round for a tank. Or do you have another issues you would like to discuss? Still stands that the technique is not a good one to depict tank hits as he thought it did.
SGTJKJ
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:42 PM UTC
The rusty effect look rather nice. Maybe on a tank with thinner armour like T-26 or PZ I that has been left for 2-3 years on the russian steppe instead of the heavy armour KV-1.

Could make for an interesting diorama - IS-2 passing an old T-26 while capturing back the mother land. Could make a nice contrast between old and new, big and small. Anyway I am starting to ramble....
007
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:32 PM UTC
Thanks for all the comments!

YES, it was an experiment, and NO not a too serious one.


Actually, I would thought a model will be shattered by the impacts (like with the firework I putted in model airplanes when I was a kid).
I think Karel was suprised with the result himself and I suspect the shots initially were fired out of frustration (about the model?) rather than a well thought method. After seeing the results he putted on the rust.

I have to agree, that indeed the holes are more like "rusted away" metal.
Again; it was not all too serious.

The rust is ash from a cigaret, coloured with several shades of brown paint (rust, browns and some copper). This mixture was painted on with an old brush. When dry, the mixture got a dark was for some shade.
Since Karel is a smoker and I'm not, I did not have practiced this method myself, but I think it looks quite good for rust.
I'll save up Karel's ash from the ashtray, next time he visited me :-)

Paul
Hisham
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:46 PM UTC
after all that's been said, I think the rusted out holes "might" work on civilian cars.. if they were smaller in size.

I remember in the late 70's when I was living in Lebanon during the civil war, a lot of cars looked like that after being hit heavily with 50 and 30 caliber machineguns and left in place to rust out because of the salty sea air in Beirut.

But the holes definitly don't look right on a tank.

The rust looks OK, except is some places where it is too "reddish".

Bet it was fun shooting at it, though!!
Adolph
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:46 PM UTC
Good tounge in cheek post Paul and a nice response to some of the "cheap shots" that have been directed at your friends damaged KVI. Some people do get quite wound up about a few peices of plastic
KellyZak
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:21 PM UTC
Well it definately is different, yet kinda interesting. I bet the experiment started when it became apparent that the mantlet was upside down and out came the bb gun. Always good to experiment on old kits if ya got 'em. Try, learn from the results and apply and improve on the next one. Nice effect with the rust!
troubble27
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:48 PM UTC
Interesting look. It brings up a good topic of creating battle damage that isnt talked about very often here. I think it is a bit unbelievable, but still a good attempt never the less. I have a BB gun, an airsoft gun, and an M4 (which I really shouldnt have in NJ) LOL. Generally, I only shoot at paper targets and things that shoot back LOL So, I dont think I'll be shooting at any of my models any time soon (while I will admit, it has been tempting on occasion).

I like the rust effect. One thing I would also like to point out is that cigarette ashes also make for great city dirt or dust (kind of like a pigment) for weathering purposes.

This would be a good chance for some people here to educate the rest of us on the topic of battle damage from heat rounds; which was mentioned earlier. Anyone have any good close up pictures of heat round damage on armor to post? I think if people here understood and saw the damage close up, they would have a better idea of how to model it.
Adolph
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 09:50 PM UTC
Instead of pinching these pics from the Armoursite, here is a link to a page that has a couple of pics of hits on the frontal armour of a Tiger two, including a solid hit from a large calibre tank round that has dug a deep groove in the sloped glacis plate before ricocheting away, in the second pic halfway down the page. Interesting to see how tough these machines were.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm
hogarth
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 10:11 PM UTC
I agree, those hits on that KV 1 don' t look quite right. Big holes tend to only appear when there's a catastrophic, internal explosion. There are pics like this in many of the Concord books, with the armor sometimes peeled back.

HEAT rounds tend to leave a VERY small hole, I'd say about the size of an American quarter, give or take a bit. The whole idea is for the explosive force to be focused onto a small spot to penetrate, then all the destruction is done inside the tank. Pics of these type hits can be found in many books and I'm sure if you do a Google search or the like you can find such pics. Also look for pics from the first Gulf War (pics might be easier to find), as I remember many pics back then of hits like this.

Rob
ericadeane
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Interesting look. It brings up a good topic of creating battle damage that isnt talked about very often here. I think it is a bit unbelievable, but still a good attempt never the less. ...

This would be a good chance for some people here to educate the rest of us on the topic of battle damage from heat rounds; which was mentioned earlier. Anyone have any good close up pictures of heat round damage on armor to post? I think if people here understood and saw the damage close up, they would have a better idea of how to model it.


As Rob said, the entrance hole for a HEAT round is small. Get a copy of Belton Cooper's "Death Traps" He mentioned how he test fired a captured Panzerfaust at an abandoned and undamaged Tiger II from about 100 feet. After the terrific sparks of the impact, Cooper climbs aboard to see the damage. His Panzefaust charge hit the faceplate of the turret just outboard of the gunner's sight aperture, the thickest part of the entire tank's armor. The entrance was a clean hole about 1/4" diameter. He clambered inside and the exit hole was about 3/4" but a large amount of sparks and flame had obviously shot through into the interior of the turret -- if the gunner were in place, he definitely would have been killed -- the TC probably as well.
troubble27
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 12:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Instead of pinching these pics from the Armoursite, here is a link to a page that has a couple of pics of hits on the frontal armour of a Tiger two, including a solid hit from a large calibre tank round that has dug a deep groove in the sloped glacis plate before ricocheting away, in the second pic halfway down the page. Interesting to see how tough these machines were.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm


Wow, great pictures. That Tiger 2 that got hit twice in the front has some serious armor. The paint near the holes in the glacis plate wasnt even hardly chipped or burnt. Not even a dent in the plate was evident. As one poster stated about HEAT rounds, the holes were nice, clean, no jagged edges, and almost perfectly round. Great referance material for creating proper battle damage. Thanks for the link!
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Who mentioned artillery? No one. AT gun is Anti-Tank, not artillery, and HEAT is a High Explosive Anti-Tank round for a tank.


Guess it was late here for me, and maybe your callsign was the last thing I saw... You have a keen nose for the rest though; thanks!


Quoted Text

Or do you have another issues you would like to discuss?

Yes. Speaking of artillery, what would it's resultant damage be?
Cheers
Brad
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 05:44 PM UTC
Rather than 'wildly' speculating as to what (actual) damage looks like, here's a good place to start:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/news/1996
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 06:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Yes. Speaking of artillery, what would it's resultant damage be?


A direct hit by artillery would result in large panels misshapen and breached stress fractures and cracked hulls at weld jounts, etc. There woud also be small jagged holes where shrapnel (shell fragments) have bored into the armor as well. Lastly, most optics will be broken from the blast overpressure and smaller items like antennas torn off, etc.. The larger the caliber shell, the greater the damage would be.
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 06:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Yes. Speaking of artillery, what would it's resultant damage be?
Cheers
Brad



In recently listening to a German tank veteran of Pz IIIs, Pz IVs and StuGs, he said he wasn't at all afraid of Soviet artillery or mortars -- as long as you got inside quickly enough (one of his four wounds was shrapnel on his hand as he was scrambling to shut his hatch during a barrage at Kursk).

He said that most normal calibre artillery and mortar explosions would rip up stowed equipment and pierce and bend sheet metal fittings, but his crew felt very safe inside his AFV. He felt a direct hit could knock items out of service or dislodge a track but he still felt safe inside. Of course he understood that large artilllery rounds were a different issue -- he never got hit with any of those.

He repeated the adage that tankers would never want to trade places with infantry and infantry wouldn't trade places with tankers either!
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