Greetings all,

Some more progress on the MK II. Question now is do I stick to the orignal pic and add some front fenders which will link it to Normandy or add some duckbills which will link it to later in the war, the Rhine crossing and beyound?

Sorry the pics aren't great:





Reference Picture:




So what do you think?

Cheers

Al

From photographic evidence, I don't recall ANY Sherman IIs in NWE after Normandy. They were allocated to only a few units to begin with and attrition would have gotten the best of them,I would think. Heck, not many M4A1s crossed the Rhine in AMERICAN units where they served in bulk in France.

Go with the France timeframe. One obersvation too: the loader's hatch would normally lie down flat and not remain up at the 15 degree angle you have it.

Hi Roy,

Cheers on the hatch. Good point on the time frame.

Cheers

Al

Sherman II of the Scots Greys 4AB , photographed at Goch in February 1945



David

Just a sidenote, but the fact that "not many" M4A1's corssed the Rhine in American units doesn't tell you all that much, since the yanks were doing their best to have only M4A3's in service in their battalions, meaning that any M4A1's used during Normandy would probably ahve been replaced by M4A3's as they "fell out" (be it shot out or sent back for major repairs/upgrades)... Meanwhile, the M4A1 seems to have been one of the main versions (together with the M4A4) given to the british under the lend-lease.

Just my informal thoughts, without any refrences available...

Hi Andy: In my reading of US armored units in the NW Europe campaign, there was an incredible shortage of mediums of any sort due to the high attrition rate. 75mm gun tanks, 76mm armed tanks, M4s, M4A1s, M4A3s -- whatever.

Certainly some later arriving armored divisions did not have M4s or M4A1s in their inventory but the units that fought in France until the end, had M4s and M4A1s issued to them. They were used up -- not sent to the rear if new M4A3s came around. That's why the oddball M4 or M4A1 seen late in the war gather such interest.

This is the reason why remanufactured, ex-training tanks, the Ford earlier production (60 degree glacis) M4A3s were sent over.

This is the same reason that some US units were issued British stocks of unused M4A2s (and I believe M4A4s as well) after the Ardennes offensive.

I don't recall reading of any program in the tank-poor European theatre where useable M4s or M4A1s were rotated out of the front. It strikes me that individual companies would just assemble crews to beef up their usually understrength sections.

A related thread over on ML

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1170051197/British+M4-M4A1+use%3B+Italy+and+NW+Europe%3B+43-45

Some of the units in the US 7th Army (IIRC) managed to field some even more elderly M4 variants. And there is the DV Sherman that made it all the way to Nuremberg shown in another ML thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1148048809/

David

Hi David,

Thanks for the picture.

Guys thanks for your input. It would seem that the late war period and duckbills would be quite possible for British M4A1s. 4th Armd Bde is the Bde that seems to have had them, both 3CLY and the Scots Grays.

This leaves both options are open, I'll think on it.

Cheers

Al

I am not even worth to consider myself a Sherman expert, novice maybe. But wasn't there a picture of a M4 Sherman that was disabled on the Zepplin Field in the Nurnberg stadium, May 45? So, isn't anything possible with Shermans? Maybe not likely, but possible?

Gents,
many Remanufactured M4A1s went to the Free French in spring 45 and 20th AD was supplied with many, too.
HTH

As Jim said, almost anything is possible when it comes to Shermans.
In Squadron's Sherman in Action book, there's a marvelous shot of the U.S. 752nd Tank Battalion in the Piaza Emanuel in Bologna, April 21, 1945.
Amongst the late model 75mm and 76mm armed Shermans there's an early/mid production M4A1, an early M4 with direct vision slots, a 105mm armed M4 or M4A3 and loads of M18's, M5A1's, etc....
Some of the 76mm's have muzzle brakes, some don't.
It's a real dog's breakfast of vehicle types and must of been a nightmare for the fitters and mechanics to deal with.
Cheers.

jjumbo

These M4A1/ Sherman II had cast in RHS turret cheeck armour.
It's fairly easy to add, from either two part putty or plastic strip covered with putty.
See this link: (remove xxx.)
http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Sherman%20Corner/turretcheekarmor.jpgxxx

The Pen and Sword book on the Sherman also shows these in action in Germany during 1945 with the British.

Another one, this time 8/4/45, duckbills again - markings just a little hard to see...



David

Hi Guys,

Again thanks for the feedback and for the additonal picture David.

Right, duckbills it is then, I'll use a crew in Pixie suits and as the early version I'm building will have the full fenders etc it will make a nice contrast.

Marc, sorry your link didn't work . Are you saying I need this on the duel hatched version?

Thanks again folks.

Cheers

Al

Yep,

All dual hatch turrets would have this.

turet cheek

Hi Marc,

Thanks for the reference.

Al