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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Matthew Toms
Color Modulation + Weathering
collin26
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: March 24, 2007
KitMaker: 317 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 07:10 AM UTC
Hey Brian,
Is there any particular reason why you seem to want to argue with me? If I am not mistaken, I do not know you at all.
As for the "Zealots" comment, I do not know half the people who responded.
I think you have an axe to grind and you picked the wrong person.
I paint models because I enjoy painting. I am not in some kind of contest with you or any one else.
I would like to share my work with you and any other who is interested.
Since I am such a very bad PAINTER, I was given this 1st place & the "Best of Show" for a MONOTONE vehicle just because the judges felt sorry for me....
Photobucket

Here is some CAMOUFLAGE.....
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AND SOME MORE CAMOUFLAGE.....
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Oh, here is a bit more camouglage......
Photobucket

For the record, I enjoy critisism as it helps me grow as a modeler.
This little fight you have picked is not constructive critisism......this looks alot like one vendor trying to pick a fight with another & you trying to insult me & the others who have comented on this thread.
How is it that you sell products? Do you tell all your customers how wonderfull you are & how bad their painting skills are? I hope not for your sake.
Your little rant is a very poor way to make your point and also gives black eye to our industry, you should be ashamed really.
I personaly refuse to be associated with this kind of childish nonsence.
Perhaps when your meds kick in, you and I can have a rational & objective conversation. Until then, I am done with this conversation.

CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 07:25 AM UTC
Brian I think you may have missed the point of this thread as it is to show what is possible via the use of the full product range. I have not used the colour modulation set for the German yellow paint scheme but I have used the Russian colour modulation set. I was a tad unsure about the final effect achieved but it did grow on me. I now use the AK interactive 3Bo colour modulation paint set on a regular basis but do not follow all of the steps as my preference is for a darker finish, however I can still appreciate the finish Iain is able to accomplish. I should add that at no point do I see Iain telling us that this is a perfectly accurate finish for a Panther, and is merely his approach to a paint scheme which I find eye catching.

Brian please stop baiting the author of this thread.

Now by all means disagree with me but Brian is entitled to his opinion, and has explained why he does not like the effect. Now please stop the attacks on each other and concentrate on the effect that Iain has achieved either for or against it is what the thread is about. After all if we all agreed it would be boring.
ninjrk
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 07:59 AM UTC
From what I've seen, this technique is pretty useful, although easy to exaggerate for dramatic effect. Having spent a lot of time at the Patton Museum and Aberdeen and the restoration sheds there is a lot of subtle lighting and shadow that just doesn't represent well with models.

The tractor up above is a good example of how those painted highlights and shadow mimic the real world better than static. I'll admit that I'm not a big fan of using this technique to make a noticeable color shift on every panel and protrusion in the same viewing plane but it is pretty on its own merits.

Matt
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 08:32 AM UTC
Brian,

I've never used color modulation and agree with you that it can look odd. Between the few photographs of models presented in this thread, I like your products better.

However, your tone in posts on this forum is pretty outwardly negative. You continuously bait any and all vendor who you do not agree with. You come across as extremely pompous and "holier than thou" attitude.

This isn't the first thread that this attitude has become apparent. It's been a continuous thing. I would suggest attempting to be a little more positive in your public communications, as you're a vendor I would assume some of your own financial success is based upon your products. Poor attitudes, real or imagined can turn people off, even if your product is superior.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 08:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

btw, on a separate note.
I don't think single colored chips looked good or looked right.
I showed that JP because it was one of my early early paint jobs, and I was using single color then. This way, it's easier to compare to the coloring of your hetzer, as chips are not making that much differences.

single color chips are easier (less time consuming) to paint, but it just doesn't work with how paint fade and chip in real life. Paint is applied in layers (each coat has multiple layers), and therefore also wear in layers. Chipping and rusts, like base color, also have to show variations to become believable.
Check out your friend MIG's painting. Long had he stopped using single color chips. In a sense, this in a way shows the level of sophistication (or not) in painting techniques and controls.


Since you like the argue about reality, I would say that chipping is probably THE most overdone thing on builds today. The exception would be stuff like Rob's wrecks where it's much more realistic. Subtle color variation is far more convincing that tanks that were in service for 6 months looking like they've been rotting away for a decade.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Brian,

I've never used color modulation and agree with you that it can look odd. Between the few photographs of models presented in this thread, I like your products better.

However, your tone in posts on this forum is pretty outwardly negative. You continuously bait any and all vendor who you do not agree with. You come across as extremely pompous and "holier than thou" attitude.

This isn't the first thread that this attitude has become apparent. It's been a continuous thing. I would suggest attempting to be a little more positive in your public communications, as you're a vendor I would assume some of your own financial success is based upon your products. Poor attitudes, real or imagined can turn people off, even if your product is superior.


well, honesty can often be perceived as negative attitudes. Especially honest criticisms. So in a sense, there's no better way to put it, might as well spell it out so we can all get down to the actual subject.

Also, do consider this. I'm not just debating against a technique or method, rather a whole enterprise that's built on this technique. They will undoubtedly defend it like it's their business, not a give or take opinion, so there's no reason to soften the tone anyway.


Suit yourself. It's your financial success, not mine.
panzerdoc
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 08:51 AM UTC
I hadn't planned to get involved in this thread but too late now. It is clear to me that the majority of posts on this website are by people looking for a pat on the back. Some of us enjoy debating techniques and counting bolts and are trying to make replicas...not toys. I think color modulation produces a great finish....but not always realistic. Brian definitely comes across as pompous and opinionated....in reality he is neither just very passionate about the subject. At the end of the day, both Iain and Brian are artists each with their own approach to depicting reality..we might as well be debating whether a Rembrandt or a van Gogh is better art. Maybe a better comparison is between a cartoon artist and a photographer.....from what I see, Brian's approach is more closely related to photography. At the end of the day, debating this subject is really kind of pointless. Finish your models however you want as long as you enjoy it. Maybe you guys need to come up with a system so we can differentiate those who would appreciate uncensored criticism and those who merely want to be congratulated on being able to glue some stuff together and throw paint it on it.....
dlesko
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 09:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe a better comparison is between a cartoon artist and a photographer.....from what I see, Brian's approach is more closely related to photography.....


I agree with you here, based on the Panther posted. The unweathered parts of the model do throw me off a little bit. I do like how they look artistically but you are right, they do not look realistic, but when i concentrate on the glacis plate that has been weathered i really like the result. You can still see some of the color modulation but its toned down and much more realistic.

As for the issue of paint fading evenly from top to bottom that Brian keeps bringing up, its my understanding (and i havent personally tried CM yet) that the color modulation depicts an artificial light source, not faded paint.

Besides doing armor i paint historical figures. whenever i paint a figure i depict an artificial light sourse and paint on the shadows and highlights:



or



If i did not, it would be look right. I guess i dont understand why the same concept can't be applied to armor modeling?

didgeboy
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 09:52 AM UTC
Iain;
Thank you for sharing, sometimes it takes a lot to stick it out there and subject yourself to criticism, constructive or not. One of the great assets of this site is the people those who can offer praise when do and offer constructive feedback when needed.
One of the down sides of this hobby is, it is populated by people who spend much of their time by themselves and can often have a negative perspective of the world and others. Which could be why this is a dying hobby, who wants to hang out with the curmudgeons? And maybe why there are so many of us who have walked away from time to time. I could be wrong on both, who knows.

One observation I have made is that there are some here that are some who talk about "realism" but have never actually BEEN on a real vehicle except at a museum. If you want to see how vehicles in the field actually look, go into the field and climb on them. I may not be able to speak of techniques and styles, but I know what an armored vehicle looks like in the field and how it weathers and wears.
If you don't like what someone else is doing, you have two choices, keep your mouth/mouse shut, or offer some constructive criticism. Baiting someone, is the same as trying to bully them. The world has enough jerks in it. If you can't play nice, go play somewhere else.

Iain, one last thing, I think it looks pretty good and am glad that there are people like you who are willing to share their ideas good and bad, it makes coming here worth while. Cheers.

And just for a little added perspective AND humor. . .
drumthumper
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 10:52 AM UTC
Wow, were it not for a few cool heads, this discussion could get way out of hand. But, I commend you all for keeping things at least remotely civil while also raising some very, very interesting points.
Iain, thank you for your posts, especially the initial information regarding CM. That technique might not be everyone's cup-of-tea, but you explained and demonstrated it well. I actually used a slightly diluted version of the method on my latest T34 and felt it had some potential, but I must refrain from buying completely into it. I like for my models to find that middle-ground between realism and being visually interesting.
That being said, Brian ... I agree with you for the most part. While the uber-realism you promote doesn't really float my boat either, I appreciate your other-side-of-the-coin perspective. And, I do think I undersand from where you speak concerning the promotion (dollar signs) of a new method. But, I do think your calling out Iain was a little unjust, given the apparent sincerity of his intentions. However, there is no ignoring the fact that it seems every newfangled fad brings with it its own catalogue of products ....
Anywho, a great and enjoyable diatribe, one that I hope will continue to keep everyone thinking outside the model box !!!!

Kirchoff
dlesko
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:05 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text



Do you highlight in the creases on your figures? Do you shadow the protruding areas?


A flat surface cant have shadows and lights based on the sun's position in the sky? I'm looking at the wall in my house right now and there is a definite transition in tone due to how the light it hitting it, why wouldn't this apply to armor? Again, just to reiterate, i am not saying this technique is the be all- end all but it shouldn't be just written off like you are attempting to do, it definitely has its place in the hobby just like any other technique. Just because you advocate an ultra-realistic approach (in your opinion of realistic of course) doesn't mean you are right and others are wrong. There are different ways to approach it. Also, some others might like a combination of realism and artistry. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong? I for one am not a fan a the "super realistic" approach, like the one you took with your Panther. To me its a bit dull and overdone but that's my opinion. but i can definitely still appreciate the model and i would never tell you not to paint that way, or that your way is incorrect because its my opinion and everyone has one right?
vonHengest
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:10 AM UTC
I don't know why this thread has been going the way it has. Any technique can be easily overdone to the point that things look unrealistic. If that is the focus then the key to any of these techniques is subtlety. I have yet to see a technique that this doesn't apply to.

Something to remember as well is that modeling is art and some people prefer techniques to be over the top. There's nothing wrong with either approach. I personally have been enjoying learning about different techniques and figuring out how they can work together to bring out the details in ways that couldn't possibly be achieved with basic conventional painting techniques.
SSGToms
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:50 AM UTC
Rational, polite discussion of techniques is encouraged on this forum. Argumentative, aggressive instigation is not. Please keep things relevant and civil, or I will lock this thread.
Thank you.
dlesko
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 01:26 PM UTC
Hi Brian. I don't think were off topic, the only reason I brought up figures is ad a way to show how artificial lighting can be depicted on a model. I was just saying that I look at armor modeling the same way where I can see where someone would want to use an artificial light source as a way to add depth or drama to a model.
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 02:53 PM UTC
I think what people forget is that most modelers fall into two categories: "realists" and "artists," Where the "realists" favor a more subtle, toned down approach and paint their models as close as they can to the way the real vehicle was painted. Single shades, weathering does the rest of the work. This gives the model, I think, a more authentic look, mainly because their primary reference is in-period pictures. If that's what you like in your models, good for you.

the "artistic" approach treats the model more like a canvas than a piece of plastic. Their attitude is that on the real vehicle, there is no scaling down. On a model, the object is scaled down but the light is not, therefore more intricate shading techniques are needed to compensate to make it look like the real thing. They look at artwork for inspiration and reference on how to paint their model as much as they do photos of the vehicle. If thats what you like, good for you.

What do I like? Well, after seeing the results of a few contests, the name of the game is competition. You want to do whatever you can to keep the viewers eye on your model. I like to make my models as interesting as possible, and the easiest way to do that, i think, is with shading techniques.

Also, the goal of this forum should be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. "Hey Joe, your model looks good, but i think it needs more 'pop'. Perhaps use a darker wash?" instead of "Your model looks fake. Mine are better." While that is criticism, that is not constructive. How has Joe's modeling skills improved by your post? Has it done anything but upset Joe?

Well, thats just my opinion. Then again, what do I know? Im only a seventeen year old modeler who won a silver medal at amps....
Removed by original poster on 06/15/11 - 04:13:03 (GMT).
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