AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Color Modulation + Weathering
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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you are contradicting yourself.
scale is exactly why artificial shadows would make the model looked fake. Exaggerating shadows and high lights meant they are not done over the scale.
The scaled shadows are the naturally created sections by the model itself. Usually an object or component in the light, and shading what was behind it. When you shade an entire panel into succession of darkness, where did that shadow come from? A tree that's next to the tank?


the "artistic approach" (so it's called here) is being referred to color modulation, and the opposite is not using color modulation.



The bold highlights the attitude we were referring to. It could be eliminated and your point would not be any less clear.

Also, you missed the point. the "artistic" category (as i have called it) holds the
belief that the light on the model is not reflected/ refracted in the same way as a 1/1 scale example because on a model, the object is scaled down and the rays from the sun are not.

If you think this effect is so bad, dont use it. No one will hold it against you if you dont use this techniques. But why attack modelers who do and vendors who provide a product to tailor to their needs?
CDK
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 04:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

(and since I'm here already, also liked to apologize to the guy that didn't get my sarcasm. I did not mean to say your model was laughable, although, washes that end up into a homogenized neutral color isn't exactly my cup of tea.)



Well,

I will say that I respect you for putting this out here but that's all I will say about that.

*

In fact, had you written your opinions about the technique in the manner you have in some of your last few posts, I would have enjoyed the discussion and said that not only do you raise valid points and make a lot of sense but that in many ways I agree with you.

As for the HST that I posted it is merely a work in progress and something I used as a base for experimenting with, using some new products. It wasn't meant to be a representation of anything other than my take on CM (which is different than the 'norm') and where I was taking it so far.

*

My current work in progress was also painted using a bit of the CM technique, basically I apply the highlight color but I don't really apply the darker shadow color. I will post a few pictures below.


*NOTE: I am not posting this for "merely want to be congratulated on being able to glue some stuff together and throw paint it on it." In fact, this might be the first time I have ever shared my work on this forum. I would much prefer constructive criticism over atta' boys any day. Feel free to tell me what it is you do not like about it, what you think I did that doesn't meet your taste, or why you think this outcome isn't pleasing to you. I have absolutely no aversion to constructive criticism or others personal opinions










CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 05:33 AM UTC
Ken I really rather like this diorama as the vehicle as a whole is not the only focal point of your work. The figure looks to be well painted and I like the relaxed but alert pose. There are a lot of areas on the vehicle that drag your eye to them, with each item appearing to be well painted and naturally posed in position. The ground work is also worthy of a good look and is often overlooked. The position of the vehicle at an angle is far more pleasing and interesting being at an angle to the base. I would like to have a closer look at the woodwork on the vehicle but overall some excellent work.
collin26
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 05:47 AM UTC
Hello all,
Brian, no hard feelings friend. Not at all. We all have different taste & different skill sets as well as different ways to express our facination with military vehicles. I have had a chance to look at your work and in my opinion you are a very talented modeler. No doubt that I could learn from your strengths and style. It is very obvious that you have put much time and effort into your work and for that my hat is off to you.

Ken, Nice work man! Like Daren said, there is much to see here. This piece offers something of interest from all angles and the subject itself as "under new management" is very interesting as well as it puts a new spin on the subject vehicle.
Karl187
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 06:19 AM UTC
Ken- I think your approach to the CM technique is well executed. I couldn't really add any more to what Iain and Darren have said. The weathering is nice, as is the mud tying the vehicle to the ground-work. The figure gives it that much needed sense of scale and the various pieces on the half-track draw the eye over it nicely.

The two areas that stick out for me are that the camo neat appears too clean- specifically the pieces of burlap in green and light green- perhaps a dark wash (applied sparingly) would tone it down and tie it in with the dirt on the rest of the vehicle. The other thing is a very minor observation but could add to the dirt effect in certain areas- and thats to use some dark oil paints to add some streaks of grime (fading) from likely places (build ups would appear perhaps under the cab windows and under the flat-bed tie downs). But like I said, thats a minor observation and more down to personal taste than anything else.

All in all though- job well done Ken. (If you can I'd certainly like to see a few close-ups of various areas- particularly the wooden load bed.)
CDK
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 07:04 AM UTC
Brian, thanks for you honest opinions, they are appreciated.

A few notes:

"Look at how much color contrast those side objects are showing..."

I'm not sure what you mean by 'side objects', the groundwork? The gear on the vehicle?


"When you look at the camouflage netting on top of the vehicle"

It is freshly painted, as I mentioned this is still a work in progress, you can see the bright shiny glass, the miss-match of the dirt on the ground and the dirt on the fender etc.


"easily achievable with simple oil washes, no need of many layers of filters using a specific brand of materials"

I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I used anything but that, I used Windsor Newton oil paints mixed in mineral spirits, is that what you mean by specific brand?

The only 'model specific' brand name item I used was a pin wash around the details and the mud splatter on the front.


Regardless, I appreciate your taking the time to give your opinion in this manner.

:)


P.S. Can I ask you a question? I don't mean to be insulting or too personal but I've noticed a few things in most of your posts that may actually be to blame for a sort of 'disconnect' between what you are trying to say, and what you actually say. If I am wrong, please don't be offended, I am merely curious.

Is English not your first language? I only ask because in some sentences you use the word 'looked' when it should probably be 'looks' if I understand your points correctly. There are a few other instances of your wording being just a bit off and I wonder if perhaps your point is being obscured by the use of the wrong tense or incorrect word altogether.

Again, this isn't meant as an insult and if I am incorrect, my apologies. Perhaps I am just reading it wrong.

Regards

didgeboy
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 09:15 AM UTC
Those are some spanky lookin' road wheels there, good colour contrast. But in reality, rubber road wheels often have chips, divets and chunks out of them from rocks, gavel, sand and other materials getting between the track and road wheel. Just my humble real world experience having actually served on a "real" vehicle in combat. Cheers.
Javi
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 10:03 AM UTC
Well, this is an amazing post!

Iīve been quite a long time without posting here in armorama but this one is far too cool to be silent

Iīm not going to defend the CM technique, neither critizice it. Of course, If you want to position me, I'm in the CM side.

But just wanted to tell you that we have an open discussion within modellers in Spain regarding CM since some years ago, and we keep on discussing!! Some of my best friends in the modelling are the most fanatic critics, and some other like it ....

In my opinion, this discussion will keep on open for quite a long time, so hold on!! And enjoy it!

Many of you have raised very interesting points, and Itīs nice to realize that you have the same concerns there in the USA!

Possibly one of the main difficulties with the modulation is that you must practice a little bit, and also possibly requires some additional effort.

When a talented guy like Adam Wilder paints using CM the results are awesome, but if a less experienced modeller starts doing it, the model may look like a kind of tutti frutti. And the CM failed models are really eyecatching fails!

Well, do you remember when you painted your first terribly unnatural scratches? Or those terrible dark washes? Nowadays, any modeller can overdo the washes and scratches, but possibly nobody discusses that in the right ammount they add to the final look of a model.

However, here in Spain we love the realistic finished models, and a lot of talented modelers focus in that. To be sincere, when I check the pictures of the models in the USA contests, looks like most modellers focus in a perfect assembly and extremly clean builds and paint.

Itīs amazing to discover that you have the same realistic vs artistic discussion! In my oppinion the painting pottential of the USA modellers is unlimited. You have a huge country speaking the same language, with lots and lots of contests where you can easily share techniques and skills. I just want to see more panthers like Brian's (congrats to the author!), and would love to see the same talent dedicated to CM models!!!

Definitely, I dont want to defend any posture, but explain that in my oppinion this is only one additional technique that the modelers can use if they like it. If you put two models together, painted with the same skills, one with CM and the other without it..... well, just make your decission and follow your path.

I would love to see more discussions like this. Itīs allways good to see that the hobby is alive!

Good modelling for all you guys!

JaviS
Mig_Jimenez
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 01:40 PM UTC
Hello everybody!!!
I was a bit busy and I was not able to reply until now. Anyway, I was not able to read the whole posts because lack of time and also because my small brain don't allow me to read more than 1000 english words at once!

Anyway, I can smell the burn out skin in this tread so, I thought that maybe interesting! I and was right, is very intersting in fact!

Well, first all, brian Domanski, I think we know very well each other, when you used another name and I was in another model company, right? Is good to see that you are not only good with Photoetched technology but also with the weathering and paint as well as with the english lenguage! But what surprise me more is how deep you know about my movements, specially in Verlinden productions. But don't worry, because I also know about your adventures with verlinden. But this kind of histories have not place in a forum for paint techniques. So, i will avoid this issue, ok?

Anyway, i don't want to discurs with you or anyone about the sex of angels, the philosophy of the sould and the stars of stuff like that, because my poor english don't allow me get into this converstaion. And is a pity, because Iwould like to give my opinion too. I really would like to speak a fluid english or chinese to explain my thoughts, but I cannot!

So, what i can say is:

1) Modulation is just one technique more..one style. the modellers are free to use it or not. Is an alternative in case we need.

2) Modulation is NOT REALISTIC, is TOTALLY FAKE, like your beautiful Panther. A rust chip, painted over a base color is the most oposite to the realism as far as I know. So, please, don't think that what you made is realistic because is not. In general, modelling is a interpretation of the reality, and more exactly, a SUBJETIVE INTERPRETATION. Everything that we made is filtered by our brain, and then, moved to our hads with more or less skill, which will allow us to make a more nice or more ugly model. Be free to paint your models in your way, and I recomend you be positive with what others is doing, just taking something intersting stuff for your self or just guiding the other to find soluctions or achieve good results.

3) HOMEWORK for you Brian (and for all of you too): take one of the beutiful BOXARTS from any kit, like the ones that you are used to talk about for GREATWALL models or bronco. try too see with detail the cover, the illustration. And now, let me know: Is that BOXART realistic to you? yes?
ok, then, why many of the colors are composed by many different tones, like BLUE , used to make deep shadows in a green area, or brown for a TAN color? the artist use many artistic techniques to respresent the deep, the air and many other factors, cheating to our eyes, and giving us the impresion that what we are looking is something real and with volume! So, why not to do the same with 3D plastic kits? We can acentuate the deep, the light and other factors, in the same way that you exagerated the streaking grime in the sides of your Panther D MAN. I cannot see these exagerated streaking effects in the B/W pictures that you used like a inspiration. So..You are NOT real, you are cheating, you are interpreting, like all of us!

But don't worry, I like your panther a lot anyway. Is just your interpretation and I like it, even if it is not real to me. And don't look my models because mines are even less real than yours!

Anyway, I think that you are giving too much importace to the Color Modulation and what you will get with this is that everyboday will want to try it.

I paint sometimes with CM and other without it. In fact my last model was without CM:



Ahhh, and sometimes I use 2 color chips because the model need it and another times I use chips in a single color, acording the idea of the model. I don't use always thw 2 color chips like a fashion. And all the theory about the two layers of colors with one faded is not always true. Manytimes this doens't happen!

Well, continuing with modulation, I painted a couple of models for two demostrations. i think it could be a good example of how the modulatios works when have a weathering over it. Both models was painted in 12 hours each, this is why is unfinished. But I hope it can help like a example:

Check the whole article here:

MODULATION&WEATHERING













This is another one that I made with the same techniques:





This one is semimodulated:





And this one too:





And this one too...(ok, no more pics):







Well, i hope these examples can help a little more. I think that in our hobby there are enought space for all kind of styles and modelling, for fashions, for fanstasy, for realistics, for beginers and for professionals.
I just enjoy learing from all of them , even if is not my cup of tea.

And, and in case you want more good examples, the net is full of great works:


http://radedtzky.blogspot.com/search/label/soviet%20Pz%20IV%20E


http://modelsdesign.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html


http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2575&start=105


http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2524&start=60

And of course, all of them modulated!!

But my favorite is this one, even if is not realistic , even a bit "cartoonist"


http://sztarbala.com/?page_id=5&album=1&gallery=19

Thank you and great tread guys!

Mig Jimenez
Modulation or not modulation, this is the question....
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 02:41 PM UTC
I have to say having stepped into this thread because it had gone off track, I am now finding this discussion very interesting. The pros and cons of colour modulation verse realism verse artistic license and combinations of all three make this thread one to read.
Javi
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 09:43 PM UTC
Well, as I said I dont want to jump into the discussion. I have been argueing for long time about modulation, and dont want to adulterate the ideas from the people in this post. Itīs nice to see fresh brand new arguments.

But I would like to clarify that I really like the way northern europeans paint. People like Martjin Van jils, Mario Eens, Volker Bembennek or Sven Frish make my day when I have a chance to see their models, even though their style is different.

There are a lot of excelent painters in the USA from my pointo of view, God! Iīm a great fan of Rinaldi, and I dont forget that Adam comes from the USA! But seems that in a general way people prefer to focus in the perfection of the aseembly more than in the paint. Itīs not bad, but just a matter of personal preference. I dont know if the USA modellers are starting to feel more interested in the painting aspect.
Unfortunately USA is too far away from Spain to go to the constests.... I just have the forums, however I will follow your modelism with more and more interest now.

Regards
Mig_Jimenez
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 11:02 PM UTC
Ok "Old friend" , here some replies, point by point. My apologies for my terrible english, I hope you doens't misundertand it:

1) You haven't reply me about the issue with verlinden productions. I think that this is not a matter to post here, and you haven't rights to make public something that is not your own history. Anyway i must tell you that you received lack of information about that history, but I must admit that your history is more funny that the real one!

2)
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All 5 pictures of models you posted, that were done by other people, showed the lack of overall sophistication when compared to your builds, even though they all have used color modulation.



We are not talking about sophistication. Try to keep concentrate in one subject or all of us will get loss. We are talking about Modulation? about Teyhcniques, about sophistication? about apropiated used of what??? Ok, let 's talk about everything! But I was thinking that we are just talking about good results in modelling using CM or NOT.

3)
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Now using your example, the imaginary panther. The panther would of looked the same at first glance with or without that modulation. And if we get down to it area by area, the portion of results from modulation that really came through to the end, was the color contrast on the roof, which, can be replicated many different ways. And it is my sincere belief that your way looked too unidirectional, and too uniformed.


You are wrong. And this is because you haven't see a good modulated vehicle in life. Is ovbiusly that you haven't too much idea about CM, because then, you will know (everybody who painted CM know it) that the worse enemy of the CM is the PHOTOGRAPHY, in fact, because some of the effects get anulated by the powerful light lamps! This is the only misssing battle in the CM. You can see more contrast in the roof turrent because I "wanted" more contrat in that area, so, I am glad to know that I was sucess with my intentions. As you can see, the CM catch the attention of the spectator inthe points where the modeller choose it. And you are the life example of that point. Thank you.

4)
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In fact, I had already mentioned 2 examples of how to do that better in this very thread (opinionated of course). One is to use cloud pattern to spray this shift or alteration in color to the undercoat, so it shows up in a less intense manner. And 2, one could also use acrylic washes like I did, control the shape and sizes of washes to get to the general directional feel, but in a more discrete way.



EH????? 2 methods? The first one with Spray? Show me an example of this, because I cannot understand it. It seems the begining of a CM. But ok, if it way is less intense, you can named it with a new name!
And the other one....you are using INCORRECTLY the word WASH, and because you aren't a beginer modeller, you should know that a wash is used to create contrast and deep to the details and joins. So...Try to clarify the technique used for that idea. I recomend to use the word FILTER, more apropiated to say that a FILTER can make shapes of different tones over a surface, in a general way or as you say, more controles and by areas. But this is CM too! A CM can be made by airbrush or by planes.

the TERM MODULATION means a transition of a color to other more or less soft. This is the ARTISTIC MEANING OF MODULATION, that's all.
But anyway my dear friend...I cannot see those effects in your model. You said that you make discrete, but is too much discrete and nobody can see it, except a general coat of unregular dirt over the surface of your Panther which is far away to be controled or efective.

5)
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so to repeat again, my initial statement, Color modulation is unnecessary in most cases, and because of the potential of overdoing it and ruining a whole model, I see no point doing it, There are better, easier, and less risky ways to get the same results. Modulate colors, yes, just not "color modulation" with its current definition (as an application method).



Is unnecesary if you doesn't need it, of course. Also for me, the PHOTOEATCH is unnecesary in many cases and there are other ways to finish a model very soon with goodquality without PE. Come on!!!! CM , PE and all stuff around us is OPTIONAL, and this is why is funny, because we can use it or not if we need it. NOBODY is talking about that because that point is ovbiusly! And in another hand, I haven't seen any other MODEL or MODELLER in the world making something like color modulation without using CM!! Show me one example!

6)
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Your models from before you started modulating color were just as good, and many of them better than what you did more recentlyy (they are still good, but there can be differences between good and better). I'm also aware that you had picked up some new skills along the way, and without the modulation, IMO, some of these recent models of yours incorporating the new skills would of looked even better.



The point is that some models need CM and another not. And also it depends of what we want to explain with our creations. I paint also some models with pigments and another ones without it. Also I apinted a whole model with vallejo Acrilics without oils,enamels or other stuff. This is just an example that there are many ways in the modelling, and as far as I can read in all your posts is that there are only one valid way, and that other styles or technqieus is not valid under your point of view. But you haven't explain any rational explanations why not.

7)
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And I think your definition of "fake" is a little different than mine.
Of the things you do as habits, one particular does strike me as fake, that is the oil (or other fluid) stains on your models that are depicted as wet. I think you wouldn't need those, or perhaps better to do them more transparently, like dried stains, instead o that wet look.



As you have say before in other treads, you have seen thousands and million of B/W photos during hours and days, right? Well, next time, spend the same time looking real effects in the real life, liek I do, and then, you will discover that there are a full range of different and incredible effects of wet, dry and more stuff like that in actual tanks or vehicles. If you applied that in IIWW tanks, you will achieve different efects that modellers just focused in IIWW are not used to see because they just base tehir models in B/W pictures. And one big point is like an example, the lack of dust in horizontal areas. Like your JP in 3 tones. because the B/W photos doens't show the dust over horizontal areas in real vehciles (always, the modeller think that it is a overexposition due the light reflection and they don't pay atention on that), so... your models have lack of horizontal dust. You can see that dust in all kind of vehciles from Iraq to Bosnia or Russia, but...is funny, the horizontal dust doens't exist in IIWW under your opinion.
Anyway, everybody have lack of habilities in some areas. And one of my strong points is that I spend a lot of time observing the reality and later, interpreting it. You can tell me that I am very bad with PE, which is true!! (By the way, you build very well, maybe you can send me one of your unpainted tanks, I can paint it with CM, and i will send you back to USA for your own collection. Then, we can continue the CM tread, what do you think?)

8)
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Coloring is your business, so these discussions could affect it, and I apologize if the effect turns out negative, and sincerely hope for the positive effects. You also sold pigments (and of course, you know that I know who made them), and I raised both my hands in support of the use of them. I've been using your vietnam earth, beach sand and black smoke on exhausts ever since they became available. Too expansive to be used the way I do on tracks though, but quality is there.
Wanted to explain that this thread is not against your business, just opinions on a specific collection of products in your range.



NO, you are totally worng. Coloring is not my bussines, is my LIFE! and my hobby. My bussines is paint models, even sometimes, without using my own colors. But in fact, all of this is creating a very positive thing for us, the modeller in general. I missed themes like this one. In anotehr hand, maybe you missed the point that I am not in Mig productions anymore, and that Vietnam Earth and those colors is not mines anymore either!. Anyway, I think that you have no idea who made them and one more time, you still wrong. But please, send me a private email.... and let's talk about pigments, about verlinden (you own me this one) about resin copies (this one is good, right?) and about what about your life the last years, because....long time ago you just disapear from this planet and now i find you with a different name with your own PE company.

Trush me, your life is more interesting to me that the CM . Please, send me that email, I really miss you!

BTW: One more thing...: I can see that now you paint some nice models. I must admit that, even if these ones doens't add anything new to my eyes. I think that you just follow what other made before, you paint chips like others made before during years, and you just follow what other develop. But you still need to learn a lot, specially to respect to those who try to open new doors for guys like you. if these new techniques are transformed into bussines or not, it is just because there are a demand of that, and all of us must feel happy that someone can supply us with new tools and stuff to make our modelling lifes easier and more confortable.
I cannot say the same about teh Photeatching market, overflowed and boring, where everybody do the same, the same upgrade sets, the same grills for tanks, the same stuff.

Yes, I am in the bussines in one way or other, same like you, but I feel happy that my bussines in based in the inovation, in the creation, in something new that was not created before.

The IDEAS is my bussines.

MIG
PD: I will tell to Mig productions people that finally I contacted you. they will feel very happy to know that.
Mig_Jimenez
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Posted: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 11:23 PM UTC
And now the second reply to the ARTBOX:

1)
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I forgot to answer your question didn't I....
On flat surfaces, shadows and shades have to be created artificially. In modeling, the shape and form are already there, so if you stick that picture painted on a canvas or paper onto 3D shape in the same scale, the artificially drawn shadows and highlights will not always match the real and natural ones.



And WHO tell you that you cannot make artificial shades and shadows in a 3dimensinal volume??? is there a law who don't allow you that? You can break the rules when you want, specially in art and also in modelling. You can make articial shadows if you think it can help to your history, because the ambiental light change acording the place , but if you apply some effects, contrasts and shadows in your models, it remain over it forever.
I have seen many models from good modellers painted in plain colors, and when these models travel from a model show or are phographied for a magazine, the strong lights ruin these models, because you see very ugly effects. But if you force to oyr own artificial light to be present always in your model, doens't matter if the ambienatl light change around it. Open your mind. That explanation that you posted is very basic and simple. I expected something more from you.

Another exmaple: Why not you just paint your model in asic color, then, left your tank in your garden for 1 month, and wait until it collect dust!! WHY you add ARTIFICIAL DUST when there are real dust around you in veryplaces?

the same with rust.....

2)
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The better canvas artists can paint shadows and shades that will match a 3D form, to extends. But here the form had already been presented to you, why would you want to alter it?

This is an alteration, not an enhancement. I've already said that 2 pages ago. The box art needs the artificial shading to illustrate shapes and forms. 3 dimensional models don't.



The box art need aletarion in the shadows???
During many centuries in the history, the art suffered many changes and took different ways and styles. During the Romanic era of art, figures and landscapes was represented FLAT , without shadows and volumes in plain pictures. In that time, nobody claimed that the figures must have volume and shadows.

During the renacement era, Da Vince developed the AIR effects, the atmosphere and the deep, and it was abig change with the pass. Not everybody accepted it. But this changed our perception.

During the actual days, the Cubism movement (Juan Gris, Picasso) moved into a new dimension of art, breaking the parts of the subjects and representing even the hiden parts of the objects in their representation. It was terrible for the classic artist, and they were very critized by such new style of the real interpretation.

later, other painter breaked the rules one mroe time, desomposing the colors and using the "impresions of the brush" to create volumen , lights and atmospheres, avoiding the volumne and shape factors.

Even people like Kandisky, Miro and others, distorsioned the reality in lines and shapes of expresion to create histories and compositions.

And now, are you telling me that we cannot add shadows to a 3d plastic kit?



Who are you to say that? Why we cannot do that? Just because under your short and basic conception of the modelling think that it is not realistic? And who tell you that a person who add shadows whant to make something realistic?

Is the HOLLYWOOD movies realistic to you? Save private ryan film, is realistic to you???

No ma, the director is cheating you. the bunkers is cardboard, the blood is just paint, and the tiger is a T34.
But you have fun and you like the action, and that's all. is ENTERTAIMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ENTERTAIMENT, just fun!

MIG
BillGorm
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: November 02, 2009
KitMaker: 609 posts
Armorama: 433 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 02:17 AM UTC
You both make excellent models. You disagree about the best way to get there. Can we leave it at that and walk out of here adults?
alanmac
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United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 02:38 AM UTC



It was better when you were trying to make a point not score one.