I feel that modeling in general makes us very aware and a good way of Educating people especialy the younger generation and whether it is a King tiger or an M1 it opens ones eyes to some thing very lacking in this day and that is reality many have no awareness or understanding of attrocities commited in any war and sadly dont seem to care realy
I dont relate or see any German armor as part of the Holocaust sure there are soldiers of every Army whether good or bad who have comitted crimes against humanity personaly for being an armor geek since I was 11 has given me the ability to hold my own on world history.
Cheers cuny12
Hosted by Darren Baker
Rationalizations?
Cuny12
Joined: April 04, 2010
KitMaker: 378 posts
Armorama: 348 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 02:10 AM UTC
woltersk
Joined: May 27, 2003
KitMaker: 1,026 posts
Armorama: 654 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 02:25 AM UTC
Just a few thoughts:
1) WII German armor is very cool looking. They were more colorful than their overall olive drab or forest green US or Soviet counterparts.
2) My father served in the Kriegsmarine during WWII and was in no way a Nazi. As he put it, he, and most of is his peers, were just soldiers and sailors fighting for their country with no idea what was going on back home. He also said that before Hitler came to power he and his mother ate lard on day-old bread and after Hitler’s rise they were eating 3 square meals a day. A lot of history is about perspective, understanding that each side thinks it is right and good, and that the enemy is wrong and evil. The Germans didn’t think of themselves as immoral and malevolent. Misguided maybe, but they believed they were fighting the good fight.
3) In a completely un-parallel vein to your question, since there is no comparing a fictional story to the real-life atrocities committed during WWII, many a Star Wars modeler finds the Evil Empire’s weapons far more ‘sexy’ and interesting than those of the Rebellion side. You gotta admit that the Star Destroyer and TIE Fighter are cool looking vehicles. Does that make us modelers evil Imperial sympathizers?
4) What about pure aesthetics with all politics aside? When it comes to modern weapons some builders find the Merkava and Leopard 2 A5/6 more appealing than an M-1 or T-72.
5) The fledgling Israel Air Force’s Avia S-199s were Czech built Me-109s. Why would the IAF fly anything that resembled or was related to ‘Nazi’ aircraft? Because they were needed, fit the requirements, were available, and inexpensive. The IDF founding fathers got over any political resentment because they required viable aircraft to defend their young country.
A question put forth to everyone on a slightly related subject: Why did every Luftwaffe aircraft sport a swastika, but outside of a small one below the Afrika Korps palm tree and some draped flags over vehicles, German armor did not?
1) WII German armor is very cool looking. They were more colorful than their overall olive drab or forest green US or Soviet counterparts.
2) My father served in the Kriegsmarine during WWII and was in no way a Nazi. As he put it, he, and most of is his peers, were just soldiers and sailors fighting for their country with no idea what was going on back home. He also said that before Hitler came to power he and his mother ate lard on day-old bread and after Hitler’s rise they were eating 3 square meals a day. A lot of history is about perspective, understanding that each side thinks it is right and good, and that the enemy is wrong and evil. The Germans didn’t think of themselves as immoral and malevolent. Misguided maybe, but they believed they were fighting the good fight.
3) In a completely un-parallel vein to your question, since there is no comparing a fictional story to the real-life atrocities committed during WWII, many a Star Wars modeler finds the Evil Empire’s weapons far more ‘sexy’ and interesting than those of the Rebellion side. You gotta admit that the Star Destroyer and TIE Fighter are cool looking vehicles. Does that make us modelers evil Imperial sympathizers?
4) What about pure aesthetics with all politics aside? When it comes to modern weapons some builders find the Merkava and Leopard 2 A5/6 more appealing than an M-1 or T-72.
5) The fledgling Israel Air Force’s Avia S-199s were Czech built Me-109s. Why would the IAF fly anything that resembled or was related to ‘Nazi’ aircraft? Because they were needed, fit the requirements, were available, and inexpensive. The IDF founding fathers got over any political resentment because they required viable aircraft to defend their young country.
A question put forth to everyone on a slightly related subject: Why did every Luftwaffe aircraft sport a swastika, but outside of a small one below the Afrika Korps palm tree and some draped flags over vehicles, German armor did not?
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 03:04 AM UTC
I build models to keep busy, and to learn. I build with my kids to teach. I build what I find interesting. I prefer Allied subjects, specifically US, because that is where I am from. In many ways what I build seems harmless from the perspective that it is just a model of an object from an event from long ago. But at the same time, it brings the past to life. Not just the object, but the purpose of the object and the cause it represented, or the present and current events, or the future and what may occur.
When I build German or IJA subjects, it's with the though that it was a waste of men and material, and they are built as a comparison to an Allied or US subject. The thought of a German tank or figures stuck in the snow, or their IJA counterparts abandoned on an island, seems to illustrate this most clearly. I'm not representing a cause, but the end result of that cause.
When I build German or IJA subjects, it's with the though that it was a waste of men and material, and they are built as a comparison to an Allied or US subject. The thought of a German tank or figures stuck in the snow, or their IJA counterparts abandoned on an island, seems to illustrate this most clearly. I'm not representing a cause, but the end result of that cause.
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
KitMaker: 717 posts
Armorama: 697 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 03:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am not talking about Poland invading Germany, but Poland was preparing for a war before Germany had a plan to attack!
Why not blaming England and France? Didn't they give Chechoslovakia to Hitler?
We can only speculate what would happen if there wouldn't have been a treaty between Poland and Britain, but definitely if Britain knew that Germany is going to make a war against Poland then signing a treaty automatically means to be involved in a war. A war that turns into world war.
Maybe, but it was not the cause of the war, and niether did it make any material contribution towards it. Had the treaty not been signed, it is most probable that France and Britain would still have declared war after the invasion of Poland, not out of sympathy for Poland, but because it would have been obvious that France, and Belgium were next. remember they were expecting a rerun of WWI
Quoted Text
BTW, non agression pact between USSR (not Russia, please) was AFTER the pact between Poland, France and England and not before that. And for Stalin that was a defence act, to move the theoretical border of conflict with Hitler from western USSR land to Poland since it was clear that sooner or later Hitler will go towards the East.
I disagree very much that it was a defensive act, many historians think Stalin was completely wrong-footed by Barbarossa and was unprepared for it, hence the lightning German advances and collapse of the soviet front (despite its massive superiority in terms of men and materiél
Quoted Text
And about revisionism - saying that Stalin was going to occupate Poland and Germany is pure revisionism. See what MBR wrote - he is 100% correct.
I never said Stalin would have invaded Poland or Germany if things had been different. In fact I think exactly the opposite. I think Stalin made the pact to secure Polish territory with the minimum risk because, lets remember, it wasn't so long since Poland had handed the Soviets a humiliating defeat in the Russo-Polish war of 1921. I think if he had not been able to take advantage of a bilateral war on two fronts he may well have had to wait longer to build up his forces, or may never have invaded
I think perhaps you are accusing me of saying something someone else has said here?
Nito74
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,386 posts
Armorama: 4,727 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 03:56 AM UTC
This is a good topic for sure.
Most of WW2 deaths were among Russian civilians & troops, adding the HL victims , jews, gypsies and political opposition.. but I mean if we rationalize we would not build a single model...
Belgian genocide in former Zaire, Vietnam, WOMD in Irak, native americans slaughtered, South american indians by spaniards and portuguese , african slave trade by all European nations... well you got the picture..
Modelling is a fun, learning hobby. If you think the King Tiger is a cool kit, build it.
You don't like the markings, change them, build a "What If" with US or Israeli markings. Just have fun !!
I know a local modeller who was building a train station at Auschwitz unloading prisioners, and someone asked him why was he building such diorama ... I simply replied, so that people don't forget history.
I saw a few years ago a documentary at Kursk, where after 50 yrs they made a huge lunch with both german & russian veteran tankers, there was a lot of respect between them, they were bonded by the same past , the same hell, the same experience .
Anyway back to the bench !!
Most of WW2 deaths were among Russian civilians & troops, adding the HL victims , jews, gypsies and political opposition.. but I mean if we rationalize we would not build a single model...
Belgian genocide in former Zaire, Vietnam, WOMD in Irak, native americans slaughtered, South american indians by spaniards and portuguese , african slave trade by all European nations... well you got the picture..
Modelling is a fun, learning hobby. If you think the King Tiger is a cool kit, build it.
You don't like the markings, change them, build a "What If" with US or Israeli markings. Just have fun !!
I know a local modeller who was building a train station at Auschwitz unloading prisioners, and someone asked him why was he building such diorama ... I simply replied, so that people don't forget history.
I saw a few years ago a documentary at Kursk, where after 50 yrs they made a huge lunch with both german & russian veteran tankers, there was a lot of respect between them, they were bonded by the same past , the same hell, the same experience .
Anyway back to the bench !!
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 04:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just a few thoughts:
1) WII German armor is very cool looking. They were more colorful than their overall olive drab or forest green US or Soviet counterparts.
2) My father served in the Kriegsmarine during WWII and was in no way a Nazi. As he put it, he, and most of is his peers, were just soldiers and sailors fighting for their country with no idea what was going on back home. He also said that before Hitler came to power he and his mother ate lard on day-old bread and after Hitler’s rise they were eating 3 square meals a day. A lot of history is about perspective, understanding that each side thinks it is right and good, and that the enemy is wrong and evil. The Germans didn’t think of themselves as immoral and malevolent. Misguided maybe, but they believed they were fighting the good fight.
3) In a completely un-parallel vein to your question, since there is no comparing a fictional story to the real-life atrocities committed during WWII, many a Star Wars modeler finds the Evil Empire’s weapons far more ‘sexy’ and interesting than those of the Rebellion side. You gotta admit that the Star Destroyer and TIE Fighter are cool looking vehicles. Does that make us modelers evil Imperial sympathizers?
4) What about pure aesthetics with all politics aside? When it comes to modern weapons some builders find the Merkava and Leopard 2 A5/6 more appealing than an M-1 or T-72.
5) The fledgling Israel Air Force’s Avia S-199s were Czech built Me-109s. Why would the IAF fly anything that resembled or was related to ‘Nazi’ aircraft? Because they were needed, fit the requirements, were available, and inexpensive. The IDF founding fathers got over any political resentment because they required viable aircraft to defend their young country.
A question put forth to everyone on a slightly related subject: Why did every Luftwaffe aircraft sport a swastika, but outside of a small one below the Afrika Korps palm tree and some draped flags over vehicles, German armor did not?
The mean version (typically quotet by Army guys after 3+ beers):
Germany had an Imperial Navy, a Democratic Army and a Nazi Air Force
This is obviously not true as history shows (Dönitz inherited the rulership from Adolf, Pilots like Steinhof and Hartman became highly respected Bundeswehr Pilots, some Army generals where hanged at Nurenberg) but it has a small core that is.
The Luftwaffe was basically (re)founded after the NSDAP came to power and was shaped in many ways by Goering (who was a WWI fighter pilot AND a devout Nazi). Combine this with the short history of airforces in general and you get a service that has no tradition to build on. So it is heavily influenced by the early pilots and their roots in the DLV
The Navy OTOH traced it's linage and it's officers corps back to Wilhelm II and the Hochseeflotte. They existed without a break and had a honorable history to use as a base.
And the army traces itself back to Prussia and the "Alte Fritz". This includes some interesting traditions that sadly where not present in all german officers. They show in Officers ignoring orders to "sort out the Jews among the PoW" or refusing to "stand and die" (and being shot for it)
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
Armorama: 1,143 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 04:57 AM UTC
Rob, this is certainly an interesting topic. One that I wasn't prepared to find here on a modeling site. After reading through 2 pages, I realized that I had started to formulate my own response, and when done, found it quite formulated on past family views and feelings.
Let me say that I'm a 63 year old who is Jewish, and who grew up in middle class America. I went to school and had neighbors from all walks of life. All were friends, and it seemed natural enough to me.
My Grandparents on both sides came to the United States prior to WWII, but lost a great many close family members in the concentration camps. I even had one uncle who had a number tattoo on his forearm, but would never tell us kids about it when questioned. Both sets of grandparents disliked the Germans, & Japanese to the nth degree, and would always make comments that confused my bother and myself, as we couldn't understand their dislike of them. My father, and his contemporaries, fought in WWII. lost friends & family, and harbored ill feelings till their passings.
So one could say that growing up in the 50's-60's was a some what confusing period for me. I hold no ill will towards any German or Japanese, have studied and seen enough documentaries to understand those times. And to accept that the world political conditions is what caused WW1 through WWII.
With that being said, I grew up watching WWII movies, and there were a ton of them. My interests have always been WWII through Korea American, Allies, & Axis in that order. Perhaps one day I'll actually build a current piece of Armor. Even when I modeled aircraft, they always seemed to have a prop.
I can relate one story that once while I was building a rare Axis aircraft model, a 1/48 scale Tamiya Me 109 G, my father questioned why I picked a German aircraft over another Allied aircraft. As he once again reminded me that he was a B-17 flight crew member during the war. I really didn't have an answer for him back then.
To me plastic modeling is a hobby, an enjoyable past time, that allows me to create something without having to be a master craftsman, and at the same time allows me to develop my skills to further that end.
Let me say that I'm a 63 year old who is Jewish, and who grew up in middle class America. I went to school and had neighbors from all walks of life. All were friends, and it seemed natural enough to me.
My Grandparents on both sides came to the United States prior to WWII, but lost a great many close family members in the concentration camps. I even had one uncle who had a number tattoo on his forearm, but would never tell us kids about it when questioned. Both sets of grandparents disliked the Germans, & Japanese to the nth degree, and would always make comments that confused my bother and myself, as we couldn't understand their dislike of them. My father, and his contemporaries, fought in WWII. lost friends & family, and harbored ill feelings till their passings.
So one could say that growing up in the 50's-60's was a some what confusing period for me. I hold no ill will towards any German or Japanese, have studied and seen enough documentaries to understand those times. And to accept that the world political conditions is what caused WW1 through WWII.
With that being said, I grew up watching WWII movies, and there were a ton of them. My interests have always been WWII through Korea American, Allies, & Axis in that order. Perhaps one day I'll actually build a current piece of Armor. Even when I modeled aircraft, they always seemed to have a prop.
I can relate one story that once while I was building a rare Axis aircraft model, a 1/48 scale Tamiya Me 109 G, my father questioned why I picked a German aircraft over another Allied aircraft. As he once again reminded me that he was a B-17 flight crew member during the war. I really didn't have an answer for him back then.
To me plastic modeling is a hobby, an enjoyable past time, that allows me to create something without having to be a master craftsman, and at the same time allows me to develop my skills to further that end.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 07:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The mean version (typically quotet by Army guys after 3+ beers):
I agree with you, the mean version is quite rough
Anyway I think that the better opinion about the Wermarcht responsabilities during the ww2 has been influenced by the attempt to Hitler (20th July plot) secretly organized by the leaders of german army. This fact had been seen as a sort of "historical redemption".
About this point I totally agree with Chris:
Quoted Text
They were tried for initiating illegal wars of agression against other sovereign states. Seperate from the holocaust (and not in any way diminishing the deaths of 6 million in the camps and ghettos) their hunger for conquest lead to the deaths of millions and the destruction of Europe. The German army Passionate pro nazis and non-nazis alike, was not unenthusiatic in prosecuting these wars. It is not so easy to seperate culpability as people would like, and wermacht units committed war crimes as well as SS units
ChrisDM
Joined: January 01, 2010
KitMaker: 717 posts
Armorama: 697 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 08:01 AM UTC
The problem I have with agreeing that the plot to kill Hitler was evidence of a large number of good men in the Wermacht is that its origins only went as far back as 1942/1943 when the chief conspiritors started to build their network
It seems to me if they were that opposed to Hitler they might have tried to do something about him earlier. The war was three years in by this point. I do wonder if they were as motivated by the fact Germany was losing heavily in the East by this point and were more worried about what the Russians would do to Germany than what Germany had been doing to the countries it conquered
No attempt was made while the forces of Germany were advancing....
Getting back on topic though, NONE of this (in my opinion) has anything to do with what we chose to model. 1/35 plastic tanks just are a hobby that we do for fun. We pick subjects that we find visually interesting and sometimes as a side thing we get interested in the real vehicle, but personally I so no conflict in being the most ardent anti nazi in the world and modelling a panzer.
If you like it build it!
It seems to me if they were that opposed to Hitler they might have tried to do something about him earlier. The war was three years in by this point. I do wonder if they were as motivated by the fact Germany was losing heavily in the East by this point and were more worried about what the Russians would do to Germany than what Germany had been doing to the countries it conquered
No attempt was made while the forces of Germany were advancing....
Getting back on topic though, NONE of this (in my opinion) has anything to do with what we chose to model. 1/35 plastic tanks just are a hobby that we do for fun. We pick subjects that we find visually interesting and sometimes as a side thing we get interested in the real vehicle, but personally I so no conflict in being the most ardent anti nazi in the world and modelling a panzer.
If you like it build it!
Bizarre
Joined: July 20, 2010
KitMaker: 1,709 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 08:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I never said Stalin would have invaded Poland or Germany if things had been different. In fact I think exactly the opposite. I think Stalin made the pact to secure Polish territory with the minimum risk because, lets remember, it wasn't so long since Poland had handed the Soviets a humiliating defeat in the Russo-Polish war of 1921. I think if he had not been able to take advantage of a bilateral war on two fronts he may well have had to wait longer to build up his forces, or may never have invaded
I think perhaps you are accusing me of saying something someone else has said here?
Yes, sorry, I answered to Brian's words in the same post. I was at work and was a bit disorganized. I agree with many things you say here. I hope I didn't offend you.
Bizarre
Joined: July 20, 2010
KitMaker: 1,709 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 08:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
(1) The army did order some attrocities i.e Italie during an anti-partisan operation, the shooting of escaped officers from Stalag III etc.
You know, I don't have anything against Germans, even though my family suffered during the war. I think it shouldn't be a tabu to discuss openly what was going on during the Hitler regime.
Buckeye198
Joined: May 02, 2010
KitMaker: 596 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 10:25 AM UTC
Keith, your points are great. There's no doubt in my mind that Hitler was one of the greatest leaders of all time...too bad he had to be COMPLETELY misguided, prejudicial, and a mentally unstable madman with hopes of world domination at all costs. But he did amazing things for the German people and nation, as your father explained. Hitler turned Germany from an impoverished embarrassment of a country to one of the most industrialized and prosperous nations in a manner of about four years. If only we had a President who could do the same for America... 
And concerning Star Wars, you mentioned how the Imperial equipment looks WAY cooler than the rebels' stuff...did you know that George Lucas actually based most of the Empire's equipment, uniforms, etc. on those of the Nazis? Just check out this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31296974@N04/3342309600/ Okay so that was a joke, but Lucas really did model the Empire on Nazi Germany. Another cool factoid: you mentioned HaGanah's (the predecessor to the IDF) use of a Czech-built version of the 109 in their air force, and they also used many other foreign-built versions of German small arms, as they were in great supply (Germany wasn't using them anymore...) and easier to acquire than British- or American-made weapons. Granted all weapons were illegal under British rule, but these were easier still to acquire. However, when the time came for target practice, there wasn't a single soldier who could hit the target. Finally, expert shooters got their hands on the weapons and determined that all the sights were bent. As it turns out, this was done by the forced laborers working in munitions factories as their own attempt to thwart the Nazi War Machine. Many HaGanah fighters thus learned to shoot by aiming the sights off-target! And that was a great question about the Luftwaffe's swastika. Manky thanks to you for asking it, and to MBR for his vast knowledge of the subject.
And concerning Star Wars, you mentioned how the Imperial equipment looks WAY cooler than the rebels' stuff...did you know that George Lucas actually based most of the Empire's equipment, uniforms, etc. on those of the Nazis? Just check out this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31296974@N04/3342309600/ Okay so that was a joke, but Lucas really did model the Empire on Nazi Germany. Another cool factoid: you mentioned HaGanah's (the predecessor to the IDF) use of a Czech-built version of the 109 in their air force, and they also used many other foreign-built versions of German small arms, as they were in great supply (Germany wasn't using them anymore...) and easier to acquire than British- or American-made weapons. Granted all weapons were illegal under British rule, but these were easier still to acquire. However, when the time came for target practice, there wasn't a single soldier who could hit the target. Finally, expert shooters got their hands on the weapons and determined that all the sights were bent. As it turns out, this was done by the forced laborers working in munitions factories as their own attempt to thwart the Nazi War Machine. Many HaGanah fighters thus learned to shoot by aiming the sights off-target! And that was a great question about the Luftwaffe's swastika. Manky thanks to you for asking it, and to MBR for his vast knowledge of the subject.Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 11:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The problem I have with agreeing that the plot to kill Hitler was evidence of a large number of good men in the Wermacht is that its origins only went as far back as 1942/1943 when the chief conspiritors started to build their network
It seems to me if they were that opposed to Hitler they might have tried to do something about him earlier. The war was three years in by this point. I do wonder if they were as motivated by the fact Germany was losing heavily in the East by this point and were more worried about what the Russians would do to Germany than what Germany had been doing to the countries it conquered
No attempt was made while the forces of Germany were advancing....
Getting back on topic though, NONE of this (in my opinion) has anything to do with what we chose to model. 1/35 plastic tanks just are a hobby that we do for fun. We pick subjects that we find visually interesting and sometimes as a side thing we get interested in the real vehicle, but personally I so no conflict in being the most ardent anti nazi in the world and modelling a panzer.
If you like it build it!
That's EXACTLY my thought. They conspired against Hitler only when the defeat was near
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 01:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text(1) The army did order some attrocities i.e Italie during an anti-partisan operation, the shooting of escaped officers from Stalag III etc.
You know, I don't have anything against Germans, even though my family suffered during the war. I think it shouldn't be a tabu to discuss openly what was going on during the Hitler regime.
Yes sure it should be discussed and documented. If this came over as "the army did no wrong" than this is not what was intended. I simply could not found the name of the village etc. The german army had both, individual soldiers and small groups acting on their own AND officially ordered attrocities.
The former you will find in all WWII armies and I bet you a beer the number of cases per 1000 soldiers is about equal in all armies as the the relative lack of persecution/punishment. That is a bad thing in itself, Soldiers should fight Soldiers and not civilians and there are rules to be observed IMHO
But the ordered attrocities are the really bad thing, the "evil" element of the german Wehrmacht so to speak.
A decade or two back we had an exhibition in germany "Attrocities of the Wehrmacht" that did NOT make the distinction. IMHO it would have been better to virtually "split" it: Part A - Military Attrocities in WWII showing what soldiers did on their own. Part B - Attrocities of the Wehrmacht concentrating on the "ordered from above" ones. That way it could be shown that the Wehrmach was not "behaving like every other army"
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 01:21 PM UTC
The Staufenberg group did act rather late but german officers where planning assasination attempts since 1938. Some failed, some where aborted since the risks where deemed to great. In Gernan but the dates and names of the Generals should be readable And they where not the only people in germany trying to kill Hitler. IIRC more that 20 attemps where made.
Cuny12
Joined: April 04, 2010
KitMaker: 378 posts
Armorama: 348 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 05:09 PM UTC
Just me again
I would like to relate a recent experiance, My wifes grandfather was an allied Airman who was shot down in 43 by bad luck he ended up in a concentraion camp which is documented with the AWM his wartime experiance was published in a news article for ANZAC day To which it was used by a neo Nazi Holocaust denying individual denouncing him on his website as another faker and even denying his participation in the war, When i read what he said I was Irate but I also felt sad at his Ignorant and uneducated view, would this stop me from building a KT NO chance or the war crimes that were commited whils he was a POW such as his close friend being shot for reaching through the fence to fetch a cricket ball even if I found a good reference of one with a swastika I would still put one on it one day I will get there
Every time I go to the LHS I look at a KT and when I run out of modern subjects one will be on the shelf as I dont associate The two together as a modelling subject and if I didnt build one I would be like the above mentioned individual
Cheers cuny12.
I would like to relate a recent experiance, My wifes grandfather was an allied Airman who was shot down in 43 by bad luck he ended up in a concentraion camp which is documented with the AWM his wartime experiance was published in a news article for ANZAC day To which it was used by a neo Nazi Holocaust denying individual denouncing him on his website as another faker and even denying his participation in the war, When i read what he said I was Irate but I also felt sad at his Ignorant and uneducated view, would this stop me from building a KT NO chance or the war crimes that were commited whils he was a POW such as his close friend being shot for reaching through the fence to fetch a cricket ball even if I found a good reference of one with a swastika I would still put one on it one day I will get there
Every time I go to the LHS I look at a KT and when I run out of modern subjects one will be on the shelf as I dont associate The two together as a modelling subject and if I didnt build one I would be like the above mentioned individual
Cheers cuny12.
The3rdPlacer
Joined: July 29, 2008
KitMaker: 430 posts
Armorama: 407 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 05:20 PM UTC
Hey Robby,
I enjoy modeling the machine and the technology. German subjects are not a real priority right now for me, but I would and will build them. I usually never try to connect the specific history with the subject. I see them a miniature machines I can hold in my hand.
This may not make sense to some since I think most modelers are also interested in the history of the subject.
I feel the same way about aircraft subjects I build also. Again I care more about
the minature subject than who flew it, drove it or otherwise.
I will confess a uneasy feeling when I see a WW II diorama (or other wise) with dead soldiers of any nationality depicted. One other depiction that bothers me is the modeling of "happy" WWII German crew members sitting on their 1/35 mounts.
One example of this was a superbly done diorama of a wrecked US jeep with Christmas presents littered over the wreck site and "happy" German soldiers picking through the loot. it just bothered me, sorry.
My apologies to any German modelers who read this and may not understand my view point of modeling AFV's at that time in history. I have no ill will or hatred for your country.
Again I'm more interested in the machinery and not the specific unit, marking, or history.
Respectfully,
Ryan
I enjoy modeling the machine and the technology. German subjects are not a real priority right now for me, but I would and will build them. I usually never try to connect the specific history with the subject. I see them a miniature machines I can hold in my hand.
This may not make sense to some since I think most modelers are also interested in the history of the subject.
I feel the same way about aircraft subjects I build also. Again I care more about
the minature subject than who flew it, drove it or otherwise.
I will confess a uneasy feeling when I see a WW II diorama (or other wise) with dead soldiers of any nationality depicted. One other depiction that bothers me is the modeling of "happy" WWII German crew members sitting on their 1/35 mounts.
One example of this was a superbly done diorama of a wrecked US jeep with Christmas presents littered over the wreck site and "happy" German soldiers picking through the loot. it just bothered me, sorry.
My apologies to any German modelers who read this and may not understand my view point of modeling AFV's at that time in history. I have no ill will or hatred for your country.
Again I'm more interested in the machinery and not the specific unit, marking, or history.
Respectfully,
Ryan
Railspltr
Joined: March 19, 2010
KitMaker: 96 posts
Armorama: 62 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 01:00 AM UTC
Rob,
Perhaps you have already thought of one possible solution to your dilema. Build an Axis vehicle with a good interior and then wreck it with suitable HEAT round punctures, scorched and torn metal. That is model it as a "kill" for a diorama. Modelling a destroyed AFV might lead to a challenge to ones evolving modelling skills and add to the "fun" such challenges bring. I haven't worked up the nerve to try it yet.
Perhaps you have already thought of one possible solution to your dilema. Build an Axis vehicle with a good interior and then wreck it with suitable HEAT round punctures, scorched and torn metal. That is model it as a "kill" for a diorama. Modelling a destroyed AFV might lead to a challenge to ones evolving modelling skills and add to the "fun" such challenges bring. I haven't worked up the nerve to try it yet.
Bizarre
Joined: July 20, 2010
KitMaker: 1,709 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 05:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
One example of this was a superbly done diorama of a wrecked US jeep with Christmas presents littered over the wreck site and "happy" German soldiers picking through the loot.
Ryan, I have seen the same plot but with wrecked Marder and US soldiers this year at Norwegian IPMS. Seems like copied from what you say!
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 05:31 AM UTC
I'd like to know...
Have you ever seen (or maybe done) some dio set in a concentration camp?
What would you think about?
One of the best dio which I ever seen is this:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/modern/t55_uandersson.htm
Is a reproduction of a pic taken during the Prague Spring
Is a dramatic dio really well done. The scene represent in an outstanding way the tragedy (...and the reactions) of Czech people invaded by Russian
But in my opinion a dio set in a concentration camp probably would be "nastiness"...
I'd really like to know our opinions
Cheers
Have you ever seen (or maybe done) some dio set in a concentration camp?
What would you think about?
One of the best dio which I ever seen is this:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/modern/t55_uandersson.htm
Is a reproduction of a pic taken during the Prague Spring
Is a dramatic dio really well done. The scene represent in an outstanding way the tragedy (...and the reactions) of Czech people invaded by Russian
But in my opinion a dio set in a concentration camp probably would be "nastiness"...
I'd really like to know our opinions
Cheers
armouredcharmer
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 670 posts
Armorama: 410 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 06:08 AM UTC
If i may be allowed to add my humble opinion,i reason to myself that it was the leaps and bounds in technology that warfare brought forward that fascinate me.
I try to put to one side that these are used to kill people - if the other things are brought into play then perhaps Henry Ford (or any other automobile inventor)should have been hanged as mass murderers too !.
Please feel free to enjoy our beloved hobby as you see fit,to me personally it`s an escape from the humdrum life i lead.
I try to put to one side that these are used to kill people - if the other things are brought into play then perhaps Henry Ford (or any other automobile inventor)should have been hanged as mass murderers too !.
Please feel free to enjoy our beloved hobby as you see fit,to me personally it`s an escape from the humdrum life i lead.
Buckeye198
Joined: May 02, 2010
KitMaker: 596 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 12:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'd like to know...
Have you ever seen (or maybe done) some dio set in a concentration camp?
Mauro, yes I have seen some Holocaust dios, and I really didn't think they served their purpose. There were too few people--prisoners and otherwise--portrayed to make it a believable scene, their expressions and other variations couldn't be captured well, and it seemed like the focus was just on the railcars and electric wire. I don't believe models are the right medium to present anything Holocaust-related. I know that there are some astounding modelers out there, but I don't believe that the fear, despair, desperation, anger, hopelessness, pain, trauma, and every other mood associated with what we see in the pictures of the round-ups, deportations, and confinement can be captured in a diorama. Maybe ONE figure or a few could be made by some really talented modelers to capture their personal vibe, but I don't believe that a diorama could be made in a practical scale of a Holocaust scene. Rather, a dio could be made, but it would not do the subject justice and would end up being more of a mockery than a serious piece of reflection. Unlike any other model kit, this is a very somber subject that must be done with extreme remembrance and reverence. Just my personal views
spacewolfdad
Joined: May 23, 2010
KitMaker: 642 posts
Armorama: 593 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 01:49 PM UTC
I have followed this discussion with immense interest and found it fascinating reading. I have one point to make and that is we model representations of war, figure modellers do the same, naval modellers, aircraft modellers as well. A French Dragoon from 1805 hacking at a poor Russian infantryman is no less brutal than a brewed up tank with its occupants burnt to a crisp. This is the reality of it all, I read a large amount of historical books from various eras and they all have the same overriding theme, war is a nasty, brutal, vicious business with innumerable ways for (mainly) young men to be killed. If you can confront that fact and still model whatever - then all well and good, if you can't then try something else as a hobby.
I think that the preponderance of Axis models, mainly late war, is a factor that tends to skew the modelling scene, if there wasn't the umteenth version of the Tiger, would people bother to model it. Why not some more of the less powerful models and quirky little tankettes, they make interesting subjects and are sorely neglected.
At the end of the day WWII was a titanic struggle against a hateful regime and is deserving of the recognition it gets in us modelling it, after all who questions the modelling of French Napoleonic era soldiers who served another famous despot.
Brilliant thread, keep it going,
All the best,
Paul
I think that the preponderance of Axis models, mainly late war, is a factor that tends to skew the modelling scene, if there wasn't the umteenth version of the Tiger, would people bother to model it. Why not some more of the less powerful models and quirky little tankettes, they make interesting subjects and are sorely neglected.
At the end of the day WWII was a titanic struggle against a hateful regime and is deserving of the recognition it gets in us modelling it, after all who questions the modelling of French Napoleonic era soldiers who served another famous despot.
Brilliant thread, keep it going,
All the best,
Paul
Bizarre
Joined: July 20, 2010
KitMaker: 1,709 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 10:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Czech people invaded by Russian
not Russian people invaded Czechoslovakia, but many other nations too. USSR doesn't mean Russian.
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