Hello everyone! First off, let me give a fair warning that this thread will be a bit off-topic in that I'm not talking about specific kits or companies or anything like that. I'm looking for a new kit and I'm suffering some terrible bouts with my conscious. Here's the dilemma:

It seems like the vast majority of model companies dealing with the Second World War make many of their kits of Third Reich machines. As a modeler, I can understand why: they made a variety of different machines to serve the same purpose; they made some of the most unique-looking vehicles, both operational and experimental; their entire country was obsessed with creating the best and most efficient fighting machines for the common goal; and for lack of better words, a lot of their vehicles looked really freakin' cool! It's only natural that we modelers take a keen eye to their war machines. However, as an American with family who fought in that bloody war, and as a proud and observant Jew, I simply cannot bring myself about to buy a King Tiger kit.

So I want to ask you all, how do you rationalize your modeling of a subject whose very aim was the elimination of all non-Aryan peoples, the worldwide and tyrannical rule of a syphilis-infected occultist, and the advancement of hatred and bigotry throughout the world? Please, as you respond here, keep in mind that I have nothing against Germany or the German people (I took German in high school and visited--and LOVED--Germany last summer). I truly believe that the nation and the culture of Germany is rich and awe-inspiring, but those 12 dark years are simply an unforgettable part of their history, and as a modeler, I can't bring myself to build kits of their machines that helped perpetrate one of the greatest injustices the world has ever experienced. Perhaps some of you can share your thoughts on the subject, and maybe even change my mind...who knows?? To be honest, I'd really like to be able to build a SdKfz 251 kit...such a neat-looking vehicle!

Anyway, I'd like to thank you in advance for your answers, and again I beg you to help me keep this civil...I'm not looking for a fight, just a personal resolution. Thank you all, and G-d Bless!

Robby,

I entirely agree with your view. I have only ever bought one kit of a german subject purely as it was A cheap and B I was bored. But on another point I only do British and Russian subjects as I am British and I have been to Russia and I went to the memorial in then Leningrad to the milliion plus people who lost theirn lives there.

But I also have to state that if you look at the figures Stalin was probably as bad as Hitler in some respects and where does it all stop?

I mean should we be modelling The second Gulf war?
I know Sadam had to go and the world to a degree is a better nplace without him, but the UK and The USA all went to war over a Lie, the Fact that hehad WMD's should this be a subject forr models?

Paul

There is a saying, "Guns don't kill people, people do".

Weapons are like any other tool, they are designed to form a specific function but it's up to the person using it to decide what they are going to use it for. The Kingtiger, like any other German vehicle, was designed and built by mostly normal people who did not necessarily share the same radical views as the Nazi party. These were mostly simple people who took pride in their trade skills. If you research accounts about Allied occupation in Germany at the end of the war you will find that by and large the German engineers were both relieved and excited when US and British/Commonwealth soldiers expressed interest in their work. These engineers were thrilled to be appreciated and wanted to talk about the things that they had made. They weren't the kind of people that harbored extremist destructive views in their hearts, they just took pride in their work.
Remember too that it was these same people who sabotaged the very vehicles that they had built in order to thwart the German Nazi military. In addition to this a lot of those who served in the German military at the time were also simply serving and defending their country but not necessarily the Nazi party.

There is nothing wrong with admiring and respecting the craftsmanship of a tool, people and their beliefs are something else entirely. The Japanese Katana is another good example of this as it is a very finely crafted tool that has gained high popularity, but it was used to perform very inhumane acts. This can easily be applied to most Russian military weapons as well.

That aside, there is another reason that would legitimately justify buying something that replicates a tool used for evil purposes and that is to teach. If mementos of past atrocities are pushed aside, buried and forgotten then people forget how bad things were and allow them to happen again. For this reason alone you should have an SS Panzer or an aircraft bearing a swastika.

Again, just a few thoughts for you to consider

Cheers
Jeremy

Thank you all for your answers...I really do appreciate your insights! I think Jeremy raises the best point here...as then-General Eisenhower said upon seeing the horrors of the concentration camps, "I visited every nook and cranny of the [camps] because I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda." While we can't provide the same first-hand accounts through our models, we can keep alive the memory that what happened was very real, and remind at least ourselves and our immediate friends and family about what happens when power is left unchecked, our fellow man is humiliated at our hands, and a desperate people decides that the only solution is mass extermination of the enemy.

Please feel free to post your thoughts here too!

Well,as usual, the difference isn't in the things, the difference is in our minds

Doing a German panzer model, can't mean necessarily an apology for Nazist ideology, all depends on the original goal which we have.

Doing a German panzer model could mean, representing the madness of war and Nazism, so it could be the exact opposite of an apology

In my opinion we never have to forget the original purpose of the machineries which we reproduce; they were invented to kill, is hard to soften this assumption.
But the goal of my hobby isn't an apology for violence, war and war crimes.
I just try to represent a piece of human history, with his greatness, his misery, his cruelty and his mercy.

Interesting matter Robby, thanks a million to have posted here

Regards

Rob,
I got to to tell ya man......I build all WWII vehicles and figures cause I think they look cool. My eye has always been attracted to military stuff.....cause it looked cool. I know full well what the real tools of war are made for, and have operated/used quite a few modern ones for their intended purpose, but honestly, there true purpose does not factor into my reasons for modelling them. Mauro hit it right on the head IMHO.... " the difference is in our minds".

For me Rob, my rationalization is this....... they look cool, and it's only platic that is a hell of alot of fun to glue together and slap some paint on.

I have to chime in on this one. Being Jewish by birth and having lost many family members (civilian) to the horrors of the war, this is my take on it. I model mostly allied figured vign's because I am an American and that's where my preforance lies. Any person who stands up against the eveils of the world and puts their life in danger to protect inocents is in my opinion worthy of modeling/stories/ paintings/ect.. I also to some extent do axis but for the following reasons. We modelers are artist in our own right, I do dio's and vign's. I tell a story of human conflict during war, w.w.2 or Korea, V.N. I try to do what I call opposing forces sets that are seperate but go together historicly, basicly both sides of the story. Someone once told me I was a war monger for modeling war, my reply was, I model war for three reasons. #1 It shows the best and worst of humanity during armed conflict. #2 It is a reminder to those who have never gone through it that , those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. You would be amazed at how many young people in this world ( my own country especially) that have no idea what w.w.2 was about or have even the faintest idea where Korea or V.N. is or what they were about. And #3, I just really enjoy pressing the limit as to what I can replicate in miniature as far as mother nature goes without using factory made items. I can not or will even try to rationalize why wars are fought over so called superior ideas of state or religion, there is none as far as I can see. I can justify fighting over a peoples freedom from persecution by an armed hostiles no matter when or where. Some people may disagree with my thoughts on this topic but that's where I stand. I have a dio in the works showing the round up of Polish jews in Warsaw. I have planed at least three more to cover the story of the holocost to go together. Why some people ask. See reason #1 and #2 above. I don't make history, I just remind and remember through modeling.

Wow - this is a rather deep topic. If you need a reason to depict a King Tiger with a clean conscience, just remember it's a model of an enormous waste of resources that hastened the end of the war! (With the same effort for each Tiger the Wehrmacht could have had a fistful of Pz IVs, or at least a couple Panthers to replace losses...)

Of course, the Bundeswehr is a whole different ballgame! Not only are they a decent bunch ideologically, they also have the coolest modern MBTs.

Tom

1) If some choose to model the "good guys" and this is their way of honoring and preserving the allied struggle in WW2, great! However, they shouldn't assume that the person that picks up that king tiger kit is doing the opposite, wishing to tarnish the allied effort and uphold nazism. The german afv modeller may have other ways to honor the allied efforts aside from the nationality of the plastic kits they build.

2) Does watching violent movies make one violent? Does listening to death metal make one aggressive? If your answer to those questions are always yes, then you will probably see german afv modellers as the continuation of the 1000 year reich.

BTW panzer wrecks (I think 2 or 3) has a sd kfz 251 with a tarp over it. I think Russian or Polish women and children were using it to travel after the war. If you had a troubled mind about building any of the 5 million versions the germans used, this might be a neutral alternative. I will post a scan later today.

Interesting discussion Robby.
My questions is .... What weapon of death can one model with piece of mind? Personally, all of them, as I dont connect my scale model hobby with politics or religion and the pain the 1/1 versions have caused. I dont have hidden messages in my scenes and theres no maral to be learnt. Its a craft, a passtime and at the end of the day, its only a piece of painted plastic. As Jeremy mentioned "Guns don't kill people, people do".


Hell yes .... good luck to poor bastard that gets in my way when Im listening to Slayers "reign in blood"

Well said Frank!! No need to have to rationalize a hobby.

Excellent discussion here my friends.

My position: don't over think it.

When putting the final details on a PzIII, or T34, or Sherman for that matter, I am never even considering the "politics", that led to the creation of the subject. If anything, my thoughts are with the men who crewed these beasts, regardless of their affiliations. The human element is a major consideration in how I depict my builds.

I view this as a hobby, nothing more. It is my way to express my artistic side by replicating a subject that interests me.

I am an American by birth, Jewish by heritage, a US Marine by choice, and a career law enforcement officer.

Many of my builds are US Marine subjects as that is where my interest lies. Then too, during a search of geneology sites, we found a relative who was a member of Panzer Armee Afrika. Even before this revelation, half my subjects were DAK builds, I find that interesting.

To come full circle on the topic, all I can add is those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

G

...Well

After all kit modelling has never killed anyone

Except some mad who perhaps had drunk a bottle of Tamiya glue...

This has been a rational and well-argued discussion about a sensitive subject! Bravo to everyone so far!

I would only add that whatever we model, we should be conscious of the perspective of anyone who views our end products. My anscestry is in China. Knowing the history of the 30s and 40s, the core of my being cringes at depicting IJA or IJN subjects. My father on the other hand (who actually experienced Japanese occupation), actually doesn't harbor ill feelings over that time period. In his mind, the Chinese people (with help) defeated them and the Japanese paid dearly as well. What will get his ire up is the 2nd Gulf war (for reasons cited above).

All I'm saying is that 1) we can't be surprised at the variety of comments we get and 2) if a sincere question is asked, to give an answer according to your conscience.

BTW: I build almost strictly US WW2 stuff because I can get the dang tech manuals and photos of survivors! My AMS drives most of my modeling decisions!!!!

Great discussion!

My humble take on this is that machines aren't and should never be tied to a political party, ideology, or belief system. In the case of WWII axis weapon systems (i.e. King Tiger, Tiger I, Panzer IV, Flak 36, Opel Blitz, etc), in my mind, these were never Nazi/SS machines...they were simply German-made weapons. Just as an F-14 Tomcat, F/A-18 Hornet, Abrams, etc., isn't a Democrat, Republican, or Independent but a U.S.-made weapon platform, it doesn't and shouldn't matter which government or administration happens to be in charged at the moment of their conception, introduction, and application...they are still only machines.

Just as sword is a sword, a knife is a knife, and a King Tiger is a tank, they were built with mostly specific purposes in mind. In the case of the King Tiger, it just happened that they were used by an evil political movement to engage in war. I'd say build whatever you like and enjoy the process!

Rob

Robby,

You are drawing a link between building plastic WW2 German tanks with the crimes of the Nazi Party, such a link does not exist and I am sorry it sounds absurd.

I am currently building a Panzer 1 here on the forum, does it mean that I am in some way shape or form validating what they did? I am sorry, I am all for Political correctness but this is one step too far.

Most of my partners family (Polish Jews) died in German Death Camps during the war and in the 10 years that we have been together she has never said that my hobby is morally wrong, does that make your morals superior?

Robby, my dad and his three brothers all fought in WW2 for the U.S., saw frontline service, and thankfully survived. Having said this, I feel no need whatsoever to rationalize why I enjoy building German armor models. This is one of several hobbies I have and I build what I like plain and simple. A lot of good points have been made in this thread but I think Frank put it best:



Mike

I don't rationalize about anything I build,I don't give it any thought,I just build what I want.It has been a non factor,no struggles,it doesn't bother me.

I have no qualms modeling German subjects. I understand which side represented light and truth during World War II and I don't think modeling German subjects glorifies Nazi Germany.

The real question (for me) is: Why weapons of war? Why not model cars ... or gardning, which would delight my wife? I haven't been able to answer this one.

I built model cars exclusively for over 15 years. I travelled across the Mid-West competing in show after show. Then about three years ago I began building armor. German armor. Don't know why, nor do I think about it.

I still build a car now and then, but they are replicas of cars I drove as a policeman.

If I had to answer, I'd say it's what interested me at that time.

G

I look at it this way:
I like to build cool looking vehicles from all nations and the Germans win the cool contest hands down. It's a model and it can't be used to kill anybody.
1) No King Tiger was ever used in a death camp to exterminate Jews.
2) The Japanese Army made the Nazis look like Campfire Girls when it came to committing atrocities. Should we refuse to build models from Japanese manufacturers on principal?
3) I live in Connecticut and Robby lives in Ohio. If we're going to refuse to build German vehicles on principal, then we should first return our land to the Native Americans it was stolen from, so that we're not hypocrites.

Well Bill, in my opinion, Art Summit has already given a good answer

Tanks look cool, far cooler than a car (...'right, of course is a matter of taste...). As I said before, we can't forget the original purpose of weapons, but if I focus just on their design, lots of them are probably the most efficient machineries which humanity has invented. Perhaps a question could be: Why the most efficient machineries which humanity has invented actually are weapons?, but that would be another matter...

(....gardening is BORING... )

regards

I'd like to say that I don't view modeling Nazi subjects as a glorification of Nazism or anything like that. It's more so just a connection of the regime with their atrocities, regardless of whether or not the machine in question was actually used in a death camp. Curiously, the first model I built (and finished) was Tamiya's 1/48 Me262A2, which is adorned with Iron Crosses (themselves not originally Nazi symbolism) and two swastika decals. As a kid, I loved the thought of the next generation of aviation technology going toe-to-toe with the previous generation, so I bought and built the kit. Then I started thinking, and that's when problems arise. The way I see it, my grandfather, who grew up during the war, refuses to forgive the Germans for their 12 years of induced insanity; my father has forgiven them, but holds a mighty grudge; I have forgiven them, made peace with both the soldiers of the time and their descendants (provided they are truly remorseful and free of hatred and Antisemitism, of course), but there come times when I question whether or not I should do so; perhaps my children will be able to be completely at peace with the issue while keeping alive the memory of all those lost and the reasons why they were taken away so many years ago.

Again, thanks to all who have responded! More views are welcome if anyone has anything else to share. Oh and Bill...jet engines are infinitely cooler than summer squash

As someone who spent several years in Israel,I too agree with Robby's way of thinking,however I would like to point out that not all WW2 German armour has to be depicted as being used by the Nazis,I am proud of my Jewish heritage but point blank refuse to build anything with SS markings, but I did build Hobby Boss's LWS because it was so cool looking.My Grand Father fought in North Africa as a tank commander against the Africa Korps in WW2 I am proud of this.I still on occasion build Bundeswehr armour because it is too good not to.
My first ever model built was Tamiya's Merkava 1.this was over 20 years ago and believe it or not I still have that kit in my garage somewhere.