Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Bizarre
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Akershus, Norway
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Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 10:38 PM UTC

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Stalin had known about the German build up and was preparing for defense (which was entirely possible, as allies had been leaking information to Moscow as part of the attempt to gain its allegiance), it would still mean he was at least considering the possibility of war with Germany.



yes and no. I agree with what you said here but I don't think that without this "non-agression pact" Stalin would occupy Poland himself. (you said that in your 1st message). Of course it was obvious that a war can happen but until the last he refused to believe that Hitler would attack and that's why during the first week of war Stalin didn't issue any orders or smth.
Spiderfrommars
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Milano, Italy
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Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 10:48 PM UTC

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I'd like to know...
Have you ever seen (or maybe done) some dio set in a concentration camp?


Mauro, yes I have seen some Holocaust dios, and I really didn't think they served their purpose. There were too few people--prisoners and otherwise--portrayed to make it a believable scene, their expressions and other variations couldn't be captured well, and it seemed like the focus was just on the railcars and electric wire. I don't believe models are the right medium to present anything Holocaust-related. I know that there are some astounding modelers out there, but I don't believe that the fear, despair, desperation, anger, hopelessness, pain, trauma, and every other mood associated with what we see in the pictures of the round-ups, deportations, and confinement can be captured in a diorama. Maybe ONE figure or a few could be made by some really talented modelers to capture their personal vibe, but I don't believe that a diorama could be made in a practical scale of a Holocaust scene. Rather, a dio could be made, but it would not do the subject justice and would end up being more of a mockery than a serious piece of reflection. Unlike any other model kit, this is a very somber subject that must be done with extreme remembrance and reverence. Just my personal views



Yes Robby, I totally agree with you. I think that the cruelest atrocity of the history wouldn't be depicted by a diorama. Even if the modeller was almost an artist a dio fix in a concentration camp would seem a sort of gruesome offensive object
Spiderfrommars
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Milano, Italy
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Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 10:50 PM UTC

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Czech people invaded by Russian


not Russian people invaded Czechoslovakia, but many other nations too.



Yes I know Roman, you're right, I wrote it in a rough, simplier way


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USSR doesn't mean Russian.



Yes, people are not their governments, especially people who didn't have the possibility to chose
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 01:20 AM UTC

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Stalin had known about the German build up and was preparing for defense (which was entirely possible, as allies had been leaking information to Moscow as part of the attempt to gain its allegiance), it would still mean he was at least considering the possibility of war with Germany.



yes and no. I agree with what you said here but I don't think that without this "non-agression pact" Stalin would occupy Poland himself. (you said that in your 1st message). Of course it was obvious that a war can happen but until the last he refused to believe that Hitler would attack and that's why during the first week of war Stalin didn't issue any orders or smth.



Russia wanted industrial advancements and more political influences on the international stages. Its orthodox and communist backgrounds had long prevented it to enjoy some of the benefits exclusive to catholic and democratic states (and still the case today to certain extends). Russia was seeking cooperation with whomever possible, Germany happened to be the only one willing to put aside those ideology and religious differences and sign the pack.

There's no good guy or bad guys in international politics, but different states, different people do adapt to different approaches, and some have tradition of being "aggressors". Russia, especially after peter the great, had undoubtedly become one of the more prominent aggressors, and we probably shouldn't analyze its behaviors like it was a kind of victim.




Germany isn`t a catholic state nor was it one back in the 20th century. The main german nation (Prussia) was "Protestant" and even that only in "the majority of people here are". Same for quite a few more. And since the late 1700s most nations had switched to "State before Religion" (i.e a church marriage does not confer special status in germany, only a STATE marriage does)

Since the 1700s (Frederik) Prussia was without religion "...dear Bishop if enough of my loyal subjects where Muslims I would build them a Moschee" (Frederik when asked by the Protestant Bishop if the new laws would mean the state building catholic churches). Oh and Bismark was busy kicking the Catholic church where it hurts for decades (Kulturenkampf)

Germany and the UdSSR had cooperated between 1919 and 1941 because both nations where politically isolated (UdSSR because of Communists, Germany because of WWI). That cooperation is considerably older than the Hitler-Stalin packs (Treaty of Locarno, Reichwehr-Red Army cooperation)

Bizarre
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Akershus, Norway
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 02:11 AM UTC

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Germany and the UdSSR had cooperated between 1919 and 1941 because both nations where politically isolated (UdSSR because of Communists, Germany because of WWI). That cooperation is considerably older than the Hitler-Stalin packs (Treaty of Locarno, Reichwehr-Red Army cooperation)


Agreed. Can't be formulated simpler than that.

Brian said that Allies would give Russia (there was no Russia, USSR please) what they needed if Stalin would agree to fight against Hitler. I doubt in that. As MBR says both countries were in isolation due to ideological reasons.

In addition, Stalin had a fresh memory how "Allies" helped during the civil war "the Russian Tsar army" - taking all gold from the country, betraying, etc. Of course at the end USSR had no choice and become an allied country.... paying for help with the remaining gold. Stalin asked for opening the 2nd front, but it wasn't opened until it was clear that USSR will take over Hitler.

Bizarre
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Akershus, Norway
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 02:17 AM UTC

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Russia wanted industrial advancements and more political influences on the international stages. Its orthodox and communist backgrounds had long prevented it to enjoy some of the benefits exclusive to catholic and democratic states (and still the case today to certain extends). Russia was seeking cooperation with whomever possible, Germany happened to be the only one willing to put aside those ideology and religious differences and sign the pack.
There's no good guy or bad guys in international politics, but different states, different people do adapt to different approaches, and some have tradition of being "aggressors". Russia, especially after peter the great, had undoubtedly become one of the more prominent aggressors, and we probably shouldn't analyze its behaviors like it was a kind of victim.



Can you mention those "benefits" please?

Well, if you go that far into the history... Can you list those aggression acts?

During WWII USSR was a victim, more then any other country. See the civilians death numbers.
And please, stop writing Russia when you are talking about time period between 1917 and 1991. It was a different country with not only one nation's representatives making politics.
agramer1966
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Croatia Hrvatska
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 04:15 AM UTC

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Russia wanted industrial advancements and more political influences on the international stages. Its orthodox and communist backgrounds had long prevented it to enjoy some of the benefits exclusive to catholic and democratic states (and still the case today to certain extends). Russia was seeking cooperation with whomever possible, Germany happened to be the only one willing to put aside those ideology and religious differences and sign the pack.
There's no good guy or bad guys in international politics, but different states, different people do adapt to different approaches, and some have tradition of being "aggressors". Russia, especially after peter the great, had undoubtedly become one of the more prominent aggressors, and we probably shouldn't analyze its behaviors like it was a kind of victim.



Can you mention those "benefits" please?

Well, if you go that far into the history... Can you list those aggression acts?

During WWII USSR was a victim, more then any other country. See the civilians death numbers.
And please, stop writing Russia when you are talking about time period between 1917 and 1991. It was a different country with not only one nation's representatives making politics.



What a naive view of history, it is embarasing ... can we please stay with modeling. Most of us prefer axis vehicles because they had to be resorcefull with whatever was available and created some really interesting designs.
Buckeye198
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 07:02 AM UTC
Damir, thank you for your very succinct answer. I agree, I think they had some of the coolest and most unique designs of any war. And thank you for trying to get us back on topic. I enjoy the dialogue here, but everyone please remember this is a modeling forum, not a historical debate. Thank you!
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 09:00 AM UTC

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Germany isn`t a catholic state nor was it one back in the 20th century. The main german nation (Prussia) was "Protestant" and even that only in "the majority of people here are". Same for quite a few more. And since the late 1700s most nations had switched to "State before Religion" (i.e a church marriage does not confer special status in germany, only a STATE marriage does)



Who said Germany was a catholic state?

and if you were trying to defend the separation between religion and states, remember, excommunication is still being carried out today, and was practiced even in later half of 20th century against political groups and their leaders. Fidel castro and Juan Peron were excommunicated in the 1950s and 60s.
Before that, pronounced cases ilike Napoleon and freemasonry really weren't that long ago. It's funny you mentioned protestantism, because even lutheranism practices excommunication.

What about Nato's different attitude and stance on the issues of Chechen, Georgia, Croatia, Bosnia, etc. Why were serbs, bosnians, muslim and croats treated differently? Surely the other 3 were all aggressors and the catholic croats were the victim there...

look. No one is saying religions were the only causes. Just saying there's no point in denying the influences and roles of religions in human conflicts.



My final post on this part of the thread:

Catholic state is from your post:


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Russia wanted industrial advancements and more political influences on the international stages. Its orthodox and communist backgrounds had long prevented it to enjoy some of the benefits exclusive to catholic and democratic states



Excommunication

I do not see ANY relevance here. In Western Europe no one cares about religion. The church excommunications someone or the local rabbit breeders club throwing someone out has the same relevance for your personal life. Besides the churches are loosing members in the 5 digit number each year in germany these days who leave VOLUNTERELY (I did so almost two decades ago)

Modern conflicts

With NATOs composition and the place continental european nations assign to religion that claim is "interesting". Nato includes dominant Anglican, dominant Catholic, Dominant Ortodox, Dominant Muslim and quite a few dominant nothing (i,e Germany) nations

(1) Getting and enforcing a " cease and desist order " against the local priest makes sure of that
Buckeye198
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 10:26 AM UTC

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what was the topic again? That the king tiger design was ultimately a tool to served in the killing of jews and therefore should not had been modeled by those that weren't neo-nazis?
Well, that correlation between nazi prosecution of the jewish race and German's participation in WWII you drew isn't without dispute here. We were arguing whether the Germans were to be blamed for the war, and whether the killing of jews was if fact the purpose and goal of Hitler's war, which the mass german population supported, whether directly or indirectly, with actions such as designing and building of the kingtigers.

Off topic?



Yes, this IS entirely off-topic. I'm not focused only on the King Tiger, nor am I trying to relate any specific vehicle to the Holocaust. My reason for beginning this thread is to find ways for me personally to validate building Axis armor. In my mind, I didn't feel comfortable constructing something that was associated with the Third Reich. Maybe it was just the fact that I would be handling a swastika with care or something, but I had some internal trepidation towards building a Nazi vehicle. It makes no difference to me whether or not Germany is a Catholic state or if Stalin had plans to invade Germany; the fact of the matter is that over 6 million of my people and just as many Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, priests, mentally challenged, and politically opposed Germans were displaced, tortured, and systematically murdered in a plot devised by numerous men who believed that they were genetically and divinely superior and the rest of humanity had to be liquidated to make room for a pure Aryan world. There have been numerous atrocities committed in wartime and peacetime before, but NEVER before had there been entire facilities dedicated to the extermination of entire peoples, warriors or otherwise. The Nazi Regime took pride in their work and took extensive notes, photographs, and other records of the murders in every village, city, and camp. The Holocaust is something that I can never forget about, nor is it something that the world and humanity should forget about. For these reasons, I found it very difficult to construct a model of their machinery, regardless of whether or not it would've been found in the camps; the government they were used to fight for was the same government that devised and implemented the Holocaust and so to build anything from the Axis was understandably very hard for me to rationalize. Thanks to the fine modelers on this forum, I think I'll be able to rationalize it in future models, but this thread was not intended to turn into a political/historical debate. Thank you for understanding this and keeping the forum on-topic in future posts.
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 11:42 AM UTC
If in doubt, do not build it. Modelling is about having fun and if you are not happy with some subject - don't. There are a lot of non-german subjects or post WWII subjects and more coming out so modellers are thankfully not restricted to Panzers. Of the 35 kits I have build since returning to modelling in 2008:

+ Seven are WWII

One of these is modelled after a re-enactor vehicle (Kettenkrad, see Modelling a photograph) and one is a field kitchen.

+ Eight are post WWII germans

+ The rest are post WWII NATO

And my stash goes in the same direction. Tons of M113, LAV and Strykers with some Bundeswehr stuff (Wiesels, Leos) and a few WWII vehicles (Axis and allies)

Modelling german WWII vehicles works different from post WWII vehicles for me. Post WWII I buy a model based on "looks good" or "fits into the family" (M113, LAV/Stryker) and then I search for a matching picture/vignette ID. Vehicles can "sit in stash" for years (M1128) until I get an inspiration

WWII germans are "inspiration first" and the inspiration is likely a movie or an old picture. Only after that I aquire the model and start building resonably soon

I.e reading a book on "Railroads in WWII" (IIRC the Piekalkiewicz one - his books are often the inspiration base) and coming across a picture of a Landser sleeping on a bench while waiting for the train home made me aquire the needed parts and build that small vignette,


Every modeller has his quirks. If I model a US vehicle it is typically "in distress" of some kind - The M1A1 is mirred in muck, the M113 has the engine cover open and clearly needs the AA, the M60 commander asking for direction. Or in less than heroic poses - The Humvee is doing a "picknik", the M577 is the mids of a chaotic "build the CP" scene, the LAV-R is muddied
lukiftian
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 11:56 AM UTC
Maybe it's to proudly exercise my Aryan nature and heritage.

Although I will admit that if anyone has western, eastern, or southern european ancestry the chances of having at least one jewish ancestor in the last 300 years approaches 100 %. To mine I say:" Sorry Gramps, you'll just have to spin in your grave, and get over yourself, because you're dead."

I like Soviet /Warsaw Pact subjects but I'll happily build WWII German subjects, and also Israeli tanks, with the requisite dangerous Palestinian 9 year olds throwing rocks and sling shot at them.
lukiftian
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 12:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text


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Russia wanted industrial advancements and more political influences on the international stages. Its orthodox and communist backgrounds had long prevented it to enjoy some of the benefits exclusive to catholic and democratic states (and still the case today to certain extends). Russia was seeking cooperation with whomever possible, Germany happened to be the only one willing to put aside those ideology and religious differences and sign the pack.
There's no good guy or bad guys in international politics, but different states, different people do adapt to different approaches, and some have tradition of being "aggressors". Russia, especially after peter the great, had undoubtedly become one of the more prominent aggressors, and we probably shouldn't analyze its behaviors like it was a kind of victim.



Can you mention those "benefits" please?

Well, if you go that far into the history... Can you list those aggression acts?

During WWII USSR was a victim, more then any other country. See the civilians death numbers.
And please, stop writing Russia when you are talking about time period between 1917 and 1991. It was a different country with not only one nation's representatives making politics.



What a naive view of history, it is embarasing ... can we please stay with modeling. Most of us prefer axis vehicles because they had to be resorcefull with whatever was available and created some really interesting designs.



Agreed, Damir. Well said
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 12:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe it's to proudly exercise my Aryan nature and heritage.

Although I will admit that if anyone has western, eastern, or southern european ancestry the chances of having at least jewish ancestor in the last 300 years approaches 100 %. To them I say:" Sorry Gramps, you'll just have to spin in your grave, and get over yourself, because you're dead."

I like Soviet /Warsaw Pact subjects but I'll happily build WWII German subjects, and also Israeli tanks, with the requisite dangerous Palestinian 9 year olds throwing rocks and sling shot at them.



Judging from my family tree the "gernans" consider interbreeding with whatever foreign group comes by a prime duty similar to the Ringworldes "Riskata" or the haBandari "Steal the Sauron genes" Program. Swedish, Italien, Mongol, French - and those are the ones we can identify for sure.

====================

And we definitly need more civilian figures. I still have a nice idea for a diorama with an 88mm Flak/36, some 1980s Bundeswehr soldiers and a barracks gate complete with attached Peacenik demonstrators. Sadly neither the Peaceniks nor the BW Soldiers are availabel.
lukiftian
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 12:29 PM UTC
"Judging from my family tree the "gernans" consider interbreeding with whatever foreign group comes by a prime duty similar to the Ringworldes "Riskata" or the haBandari "Steal the Sauron genes" Program. Swedish, Italien, Mongol, French - and those are the ones we can identify for sure."

Exactly


Swedish, Danish, Irish, Croat, and god only knows what else myself. But I'm still keeping the hat
Buckeye198
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 06:21 PM UTC
Yeah Brian I can explain for you. I wasn't trying to get people to stop building Axis armor or anything like that. I just felt weird about building something from the Third Reich and I wanted to find out how others deal with the issue. Most people have said that it isn't an issue. They build what looks cool and they don't think about the purpose the actual machine served; their hobby is to model, not to think about the past. Those who do think about it say that we must remember the mistakes of the past, and by building Axis kits, they keep alive the lessons learned from a dark chapter in our history; in other (more famous) words, "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." Still others say that they forget about the politics and build just to honor the universal soldier and the idea that they are willing to sacrifice everything for a higher cause. In the end, however you think about it and whatever kits you decide to build is up to each modeler. So that's all. No preaching intended here, just trying to find a way to cope with these complications. And this community--as always--has been able to guide me along just fine.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 06:54 PM UTC
I have read with interest the viewpoints presented here. I would like to add I feel the same way as Robby about certain subjects. My pet peave is Herman Goering. I refuse to replicate in scale any of his WWI aircraft. The following is a thread where I demonstrated my method for coming top terms with a kit that only offered his markings.

Click here.

I still build WWI aircraft kits from all nationalities and have a rather specific German oriented set of files among my collection of info & books.
Buckeye198
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 09:32 PM UTC
Brian, I completely understand your points. I also think their vehicles were some of the most advanced of their time, and that's why I was in such a dilemma. I know the war wasn't started to instate the Holocaust and I know that few outside of the Nazi higher-ups and the SS knew about what was going on in the camps until after their liberations, but that doesn't make them any less atrocious. And I'm fully aware of the "Fritz Hat" design being derived from that of the Stahlhelm. Regardless of all this, I was just a little uneasy about modeling their machines and I wanted some help to get over this.