Anyway Robby I really understand and I have lots of respect for your unease.
I think that some of the other guys may don't have any problem because they aren't Jews.
I think that if I were Jew I'd have perhaps the same thoughts.

Anyway I really think that with some plastic and a little glue you can't betray and offend your roots

Of course, just my very humble opinion anyway

Cheers

I can completely understand where you're coming from Robby

I can also understand why you raised it, despite whta others say. I also think you are comletely entitled to do so and thank you for raising it in a mature and level way which has in turn lead to a (mostly) mature and level debate

As far as I am concenred, while these vehicles themselves cannot logically be Nazi, they are the product of a society militarised by the Nazi party and National Socialism. A system incidentally that was elected to power in a democratic process in the early 1930s (it did not seize power, it was chosen by the German people) and the state persecution of jews began in 1933, so I'm pretty sure that while some people may not have been aware of the existence of the camps, everybody knew how the state felt about and 'dealt with' Jews, and everybody had seen them driven from their homes and businesses and collected by Nazi paramilitaries and Gestapo and shipped away.

Getting back on track, while a tank cannot be a nazi, it was the product of a Nazified state (by which I mean all aspects of the state from arms manufacture to education, local goverment, including marriage and death certificates, everything). Therefore it CAN be seen as representing a Nazi controlled ideology. In the case of late war tanks, even its manufacture was made possible by the management of dedicated party member and close confidant of Hitler, Albert Speer

Now, I'm not saying panzer modellers are closet Nazis, I've known too many seriously great guys who are very definitely not neo nazis but love to build a panzer to think that

I'm also not saying people should bear in mind what I have said above when they chose to build a Panzer. As I have said numerous times on this thread; to me a 1/35 plastic tank built in 2011 has nothing to do with a real one used in a war 70-odd years ago. It can only visually represent it and nothing more

I'm just saying that personally, I CAN understand if some people have a feeling of moral queasiness at the thought of building Panzers (or indeed Imperial Japanese tanks, or any other tool of any fascist state) and I really don't see why anybody would want to disparage that, each to their own

As has been suggested, why not build your panzers destroyed or captured? This would put them in a historical context against allied forces or armour rolling past


Alternatively don't worry about it, just don't model panzers at all. One of the greatest myths of modelling is that Panzers are the most interesting

I gave up modelling panzers nearly three years ago just because I was completely bored of them (they are everywhere you look in this hobby!) I got to know British Armour and Churchills and have never looked back; over 40 variants, in service of 15 years, endless variety of markings.

The same can be said of pretty much any tank. If you really dig into ANY modelling subject and get to know it they are all interesting, you just have to get to know them

Hmm, the Nazis way to power is actually more complex and involves quite a bit of law bending (but as you righly claim no law breaking). The last free votes that resulted in Hitler becoming Reichskanzler in January 1933 had the NSDAP at somewhere around 32-33 precent (and in decline from the previous election). They where the strongest faction but nothing more.

Through a fault in the German Constitution, the stupidity of the Zentrum (Political equivalent to todays CDU, actually many founding members of the CDU had been Zentrum before 1945) and to a lesser degree the SPD (far more left than todays SPD, not a peoples party like they are today)

Back then Reichskanzler was not elected but nominated by the Reichspräsident (Hindenburg). Customs had it that the leader of the strongest faction was choosen. Hindenburgs personal dislike for Hitler (not Hitlers politics) had made him break that custom twice and nominate the SPD and Zentrum leader respectively. Both formed a minority government with the opposite (Two SPD/Zentrum coalitions) and both terminated that for minor reasons. So Hindenburg was running out of options. Listening to his son as well as to Zentrum leaders who claimed they "could control Hitler" he nominated Hitler.

Hitler used another fault in the constitution and through a combination of coalition politics (with liberal and conservative parties including the Zentrum) and bending the laws of protective custody (arresting the communists) managed to ram through near-dictatorial powers based on the (much used and abused) Article 48 of the constitution.

With that he could "unify the laws" of the various german states (back then state law trumped national law) and that in turn enabled stuff like the 1935 Nurenberg laws (The start of the Jewish prosecution)

======

That KZs existed was no secret. That they where used for mass-killings was. The early camps (within germany) where mostly aimed at communists, socialists etc and used for re-education (Think GULAG) not outright mass-murder. With the jewish population the Nazis used a staggered approach. First getting them "out of sight" (Into walled Ghettos, restricted to few shops etc) and then transporting them off from there. This allowed people to "think they where relocated/close their eyes and ears" and with people in the cities thinking more and more about "next meal" and "next raid"(1) this allowed them to silence any nagging doubts.

Still some civilians knew for sure. Starting with the railroad workers (The SS used regular train personal) and ending with entrepreneus like Schindler (who at least saved some) and bastards like von Braun (who complained about the "low quality of worker material")

(1) The Jewish population in germany where mostly city based

Sorry MBR, you're right, I did oversimplify somewhat

The NSDAP did indeed use some dirty tricks to maniplute the process and gain power. This was not what we might call a normal democratic election process now. However, my point was that it was not a coup, and not illegal, but that they gained power through popular (not majority, but the largest faction) support not force of arms

Subsequent to that the point I was trying to make was that, contrary to some posts on this thread which seek to portray mass ignorance of Nazi crimes and policies amongst the 'majority' of the German populace, knowledge of and aquiescence to them was an endemic part of German society by the outbreak of war in 1939. This was further intended to support the idea that German military hardware of the period was a product of, and can represent, that society (I was attempting to keep it linked to the subject of the thread)

I understand that part of the process of 'processing' Camp inmates was the confiscation of spectacles, shoes, clothing and other goods which were in turn sent to German civilians to counter shortages. I often wonder if any of these civilians had any idea of the origin of these things. I can only imagine they either did not, or chose not to question it lest they find out

No problem, my post was more to "give enhanced details" (As a german with History as an examination subject in high school and a historian that had 3. Reich and population development as a secondary subject one gets quite a bit background) I totally agree that the "Machtergreifung" never happened.

And I agree, there was at least some knowledge that not all was right when it came to Jews, Gypsies, Communists etc. Some stuff was quite well known (i.e the Euthanasia operations - these where carried out in normal sanatoriums etc.) and some more would at least be "strongly hinted add" 1943 when Speer took over, switched to war production and employed more KZ inmates in the industry. The inmates where a bit "segregated" with Jews going to "secret" works like Dora while Russian POW (killed in the same system) went to the coal/iron mines. Still, the miners knew "something was not right" by simply looking at the rations and comparing them to the rations of the "Fremdarbeiter"(1) also present. They might not get the whole picture but hints.

As for the clothing, that is an interesting question. I have to check with my grandmother how much was bought "used" back then. I know that used books and baby gear where no problem for my parents back in the 1960s so it might have been somewhat common.


(1) Fremdarbeiter where not to be "destroyed by work" (Yes, that is the term used by the Nazis). They recieved less meat/fat than a german worker but generally the same amount of calories

Chris, I think you have put into words what I have struggled with for so long in this thread. This is exactly where my uneasiness comes from. While I think that many Nazi vehicles are much "cooler looking" from a modeler's point of view (SdKfz250, Elefant, Me163, the prototype Ho229--probably my all time favorite), they were created with support and inspiration from the needs and wants of the Nazi regime. And of course, MBR, the facts you know are essential to understanding this very difficult subject! Thank you both!

Well. it's not much of a stretch to paint something white. I like Lothar's planes myself, I did a nice DR.1 in his colours.

Well, yes, because we all know that a Scud loaded with anthrax is NOT a WMD, right?

This topic has been visited here before. I don't justify buildiing what I like.

Figure modellers build Confederate subjects of the American Civil War. Part of the reason for the civil war was the Conderate desire to maintain the institution of slavery. My forefathers fought for the Union and two of my relatives died in the war to preserve the Union. To be blunt the Confederacy was just as evil for the American Black as Egypt was to the Isrealites.

I don't think people are supporting Naziism or slavery when they build these subjects...it's just that the subject matter fascinates them.

I am a German vehicle builder..mostly WWII..both of my Grandfathers fought in combat in WWII...against the Germans....I don't glorify Hitler or love the Nazis..I just love the cool WWII German Armor.

I know that your being Jewish would make the decision to build a subject linked to the Nazis much harder. And noone can blame you for that. But that's OK and you don't have to. There are millions of other kits out there to choose from.

To put it in perspective just look at all of the French, Polish, Dutch and Russian members of this site who specialize in WWII German subjects...The Germans occupied those countries and millions of their countrymen, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, were killed. I don't think they try to rationalize the building of German vehicles....I just think they like the subject matter, end of story.

It's not the glorification of an ideaology...it's the passion to build a technological wonder and a piece of history. This just sums up how I feel.


Jeff

Interesting topic.

So like some others for a long time I did not model Waffen SS subjects. A few years ago however, I came to the conclusion (and this works with regular German Army subjects as well) that me not building these subjects would not make them go away. They are a part of history, they existed. They are also an expression of my interest in history. So in the end I came to terms with the fact that me building either regular Army subjects nor Waffen SS subjects does not reflect an idolization of Nazi ideology, in the same way as studying German milhist is not an agreement with what the Germans did in WWII.

In a much broader context though, modeling is something you do for personal reasons, and if it really makes you uncomfortable, then it should not be pursued. Not being jewish (though the point of ancestry is a good one; no doubt I have a jewish ancestor somewhere, not that my genes really care!) I don't have the same concerns about it, or rather my concerns are at a more general and detatched level -- they don't have a personal impact. I suppose if the Germans tried to exterminate Italians (FREX, as an Italian-american) perhaps my opinions would be different. I can see where the OP is coming from, even if my own hang-ups are more vague and generalized.

When I build a model, I do so for my own personal satisfaction. This is why I rarely post my work, or participate in contests (what does that prove? Does it make me happier as a modeler?). Personally I have no problems with doing the full range of WWII subjects, including Waffen SS or Japanese subjects. But it is in the end a personal decision.

Damon.

I have to admit I've seen threads like this one before and I just don't get it.

If you have to come up with a rationalization for building -ANY- machines of war, then maybe you're in the wrong hobby. I doubt there is a single type of military vehicle out there that hasn't somehow been involved one way or another in the killing of human beings, whether innocent civilians or military personnel either by accident or planned. How do you rationalize building a model of any machine whose sole purpose is killing others?

When you build a model of a Sherman tank do you think about the families of the German soldiers that might have left fatherless because of this tank? Do you think their children were evil?

A model is just that. A model. Nothing more unless you make it so. I personally think you are over thinking this whole subject and that there is no rationalization needed. Really, if the pleasure of building a model tank leaves you feeling guilty, you might try what someone else suggested and build a blown up one if that makes you feel better about it. Otherwise, just build whatever models you like because they look cool.

James

(Or in retrospect, maybe MY rationalization is that it's just a bit of plastic made to look like something real, and that the bit of plastic isn't really going to go out and blow holes in people or anything else immoral.)

who knows??!!

great thread, and I am like many here, I don't rationalise it at all.

I am like most of you here too very much a military history buff, and I don't know which came first, the modelling or the inerest in military history - I suspect the modelling as a kid of 10 or 12, and then wanting to find out ABOUT the true stories behind the machines I was building.

A Mongram Sherman 'Screaming Mimi" in 1/32 scale from memory was the first model built, and then so I could have something to fight against, a Panzer IV (Monogram).

I model what takes my fancy - at the moment it is British Armour, but LOTS of US Shermans have crossed my workbench, along with fleets of TIgers.

And until I read this thread, I have NEVER thought about any morality in building these, just in making them look real!!

SO yeah, it's just a hobby, get over it, or collect stamps (said with a cheeky smile). And I do have connections to the war, my Grandfather died in it, never had the pleasure of meeting him. But that's life (or death as the case may be).

Allow me to chime in from Greece - with a little background.

Yes, Greece, with one of the highest percentage of pre-war population lost in WW2, (750,000+ almost 2 times the US combat KIA/MIA for comparison), to a brutal three-part occupation by Germany, Italy and Bulgaria.

My grandfather came back from the front in bad shape and died soon after. My father spend part of his childhood in the occupation. Tens of thousands of my countrymen - of every religion - were executed, sent to the KZs, forced away from their ancestral homes or simply starved to death.

It was traditional until a few years ago for simple Greeks facing a great disaster natural or other to say: "the Germans are coming back!".... What more to say?

So, logically, I really SHOULD feel at least some hesitation in modelling Axis subjects, right? Well, I don't. None. Actually the roots of my interest in modelling since childhood has been Axis and mainly German war machines. Should I rationalize it? Well, given the opportunity in this thread by Robby, I feel I should.

I'll just run thru all the reasons mentioned above: diversity of the subject, technological advances (LEAPS actually), historical importance etc etc. These are all good and valid points and i share them as well.

However, I think we are missing a point here and I feel it should be brought up as I feel it actually touches upon the core of Robby's concern.

Many of us, including me personally, are fascinated by German WW2 designs. Second to that I'd rank Soviet designs WW2 and post-WW2. I think there is more to this fascination than mentioned (admitted perhaps?) so far in this thread.

You see, these designs were born of regimes that affected every part of the societies they ruled (as already mentioned), regimes that militarized huge parts of their populations, not only to mobilize but also to motivate.
Uniforms, medals, parades, rituals, whole castles for God's sake! They romanticized their mobilization - their call to arms - to appeal to the mind, the vanity, the base desires of their people and detract from their darkest goals and deeds.
So, these weapons of war we choose to model, not only did they happen to be produced during these regimes' reigns but more than that they were actually SHAPED - to a degree - by them and their ideologies. The German panzers were built to be the Iron Fist of the Fatherland! The Soviet ISs and SUs and missile carriers of the Cold War were not just built to function but also to look "good", menacing, proud, imposing, in the May Day parades on the Red square... Even the simple and rugged T-34 had a pure and direct aggresiveness to its design. These were the instruments of power of totalitarian, militaristic and yes, evil and brutal regimes. Compare that to the bland and utilitarian drabness of the thousands of copies built of a few basic designslike the Sherman and its derivatives and such, by the US and the Allies. No romantic aggrandizing, just simple, industrial tools.

And to a degree this still resonates in the hearts of many of us, even though - i hasten to say - it is not connected to its original intent... Someone stated above "evil has no physical appearance". I beg to differ. The implements of evil people, evil regimes, tend to be imbued with a fascinating, dark appeal, or style, quite intentionally, in order to intimidate, awe or just simply scare friend and foe alike.

To end my rant. Robby, I absolutely respect and believe I understand your concerns. Moreover I believe there is more to them than has been addressed so far in this thread. In my humble opinion, if you feel that applying your time and skills to anything that insults your heritage and your beliefs feels wrong and makes you question whether it is OK or right to do so, then don't. If you can accept that being interested, even fascinated, with these subjects and yet disconnect them from what shaped them into being, well go for it!

Just my 2c (yeah right!) worth.....

Trifon

Rob;
Ever owned a volkswagen? Porsche? BWM? Toyota? Nissan? Mitsubishi? All built by the Axis war machine. Companies that willingly created machines of war (as did Ford, Caddilac, GMC, etc. . . .). A model is just a plastic representation of something else. There does not need to be any connection between those that killed and the weapon that was used.
I respect your thoughtfulness on this issue. I think it is important to ask ourselves moral questions and challenge our reasons why we do things. But, if we all continued along those lines with everything then there are many, many children in Asia and specifically Southwest Asia that can wonder why they should build a model of an M1 or an F15. And that line of thinking leads to more hatred of the thing and the thing that produced the thing. Cheers.