Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
salt6
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 06:22 PM UTC
You might find these interesting.


http://www.maritime.org/doc/camo/index.htm#pg28

http://www.smmlonline.com/articles/kriegsmarinecamo/kreigsmarine.html
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 07:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What's the overall height?



14-15 inches.

Mike
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 03:37 AM UTC
For paint I'd look at what the beast would be hiding from. I would think air attack would be the biggest threat. I would think it would operate in generally open areas. I don't think you'd want to try to operate this thing in a forested or hilly area. From the ground level there's not a lot of cover for it to blend in with. You could probably argue that it would be mostly used in a fire support role for a general area. So, it probably wouldn't have to face enemy ground forces...except if there's a breakthrough.

So I'd go a mottled green and/or brown over dark yellow. Maybe for the roof and part of the upper sides harden the greens and browns to appear as foliage. If you wanted to get fancy you could use a splinter pattern on the lower half of the sides.

Of course the devilish side in me would suggest doing it in an ambush scheme.
salt6
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 04:37 AM UTC
That's about 43 feet!

I agree that air attack would be your biggest threat.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 04:53 AM UTC
Thinking along the lines of the Octopus scheme. If I do, will this green work? (I've painted the heli-pad in this color and it looks pretty good, it's just that I'm pretty color blind, and that makes this a PITA for me.)

Vallejo Model Air German Green

If this is not the correct green, which Vallejo Model Air would be?

Also, I'll be using the Vallejo Model Air Dunkelgelb. OR, should I use Middlestone? There's a pretty significant difference between the Middlestone and Dunkelgelb.

Steve, I was off a little...it's about 13 inches (not that it makes that much of a difference).

In essence, I'm seeking good colors for this and the turrets. In layman's terms...a green, a brown, a yellow, and whatever else I may need. Prefer the Model Air because I can get it at the local Hobbytown.

Appreciate the help and input very much.

Mike
salt6
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 05:06 AM UTC
I know everyone wants to do the regular armor camo, but you have basically a forty foot tall building. So here's a rough idea. You could substitute greys for the blues.



Download the image and zoom in and out to simulate an air attack.
griffontech
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 08:26 AM UTC
This thing would be hard to hide no matter what the Germans painted it. How about just shades of greys and browns, to mimic a large hill. Maybe they would have thought of adding rooftop gardens and trees to add to the sense of it being a hill
barkingdigger
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 09:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This thing would be hard to hide no matter what the Germans painted it. How about just shades of greys and browns, to mimic a large hill. Maybe they would have thought of adding rooftop gardens and trees to add to the sense of it being a hill



Nah - he'd need to add a snow-capped peak to the main turret!

In practice, the upper surface needs to be camo'd to look similar to its surroundings from above (ie "grass" or "dirt), and then the real trick is adding enough counter-shading on the lower parts and irregular dark lines on the upper parts to break up the very regular outlines that will give it away on recon photos. (Anyone getting near enough to attack will see it sticking out regardless of paint, so the camo is for evading recon pics - later wars would introduce other issues like IR signiature etc...) There were smaller-scale schemes for "normal" vehicles that do the whole "hide the shadows" trick to either mask the edges completely or at least make it look less like a tank, so these lessons just need blown up in scale.

Bear in mind the outlines to break up are not just the main hull sides, but also the shape of the turrets, the long gun tubes, and if possible anything that indicates "front" or "back". A crazy patchwork of say dark green over Olivgrun would hopefully make it harder to see where each feature ended and the next began, even if the presence of the vehicle itself could not be hidden. One problem with the more popular "long bands" schemes is that it can be easier to make out the main elements of the vehicle if the turret etc are not in exactly "12 o'clock" alignment because of the breaks in the pattern, whereas wiggly lines, blotches, and giraffe-style honeycomb patterns are more likely to hide the joints even when things are rotated.
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 09:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

This thing would be hard to hide no matter what the Germans painted it. How about just shades of greys and browns, to mimic a large hill. Maybe they would have thought of adding rooftop gardens and trees to add to the sense of it being a hill



Nah - he'd need to add a snow-capped peak to the main turret!

In practice, the upper surface needs to be camo'd to look similar to its surroundings from above (ie "grass" or "dirt), and then the real trick is adding enough counter-shading on the lower parts and irregular dark lines on the upper parts to break up the very regular outlines that will give it away on recon photos. (Anyone getting near enough to attack will see it sticking out regardless of paint, so the camo is for evading recon pics - later wars would introduce other issues like IR signiature etc...) There were smaller-scale schemes for "normal" vehicles that do the whole "hide the shadows" trick to either mask the edges completely or at least make it look less like a tank, so these lessons just need blown up in scale.

Bear in mind the outlines to break up are not just the main hull sides, but also the shape of the turrets, the long gun tubes, and if possible anything that indicates "front" or "back". A crazy patchwork of say dark green over Olivgrun would hopefully make it harder to see where each feature ended and the next began, even if the presence of the vehicle itself could not be hidden. One problem with the more popular "long bands" schemes is that it can be easier to make out the main elements of the vehicle if the turret etc are not in exactly "12 o'clock" alignment because of the breaks in the pattern, whereas wiggly lines, blotches, and giraffe-style honeycomb patterns are more likely to hide the joints even when things are rotated.


Now that's along the lines of what i have been thinking...
Tried my own, very sloppy design. Of course, the colours are debatable. I aimed at giving the Ratte a wrong (smaller) contour, making it seem farther away than it actually is.



While using some darker colour, I don't think the whole thing will apear like one big dark colour blop from afar.
urumomo
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 10:05 PM UTC
so if we're all in agreement that air attack is the primary threat ---- why do we keep seeing her in profile during this discussion ?

....it's not a torpedo run ....
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 03:48 AM UTC
Nicolas, your image really showed me the concept some of you have been talking about. Slick! Unique. Really. Makes sense to me now how this can be accomplished.

Thoughts on colors? I see the first range of hills. The second further back range. Clouds, per se? The "smaller" outline of the Ratte. Mmmmmm.

I would really like to see someone's idea of camo for the top/aerial view.

Yeah...unique. It'll def make someone look twice at it. (as in a 1:1 person looking at a 1:35 tank)

Mike
salt6
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 08:25 AM UTC
Mike,

I think you are going to have to be bold on this paint job. Try putting the images into a paint program and zooming in and out. To my eye the more you zoom out (farther away)the colors become unrecognizable.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 08:39 AM UTC
Point taken Steve.

Now that I can visually "see" the concept behind painting a tank like a battleship, this is what I'll go with. It will indeed be bold! It'll also make real sense (does to me finally! ).

Mike
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 02:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Point taken Steve.

Now that I can visually "see" the concept behind painting a tank like a battleship, this is what I'll go with. It will indeed be bold! It'll also make real sense (does to me finally! ).

Mike



Happy you liked it. Tried to apply it to a more "3D"-like picture. The difficutlty is to keep what works from the ground without making it to "obvious" from above. Don't like how the front turned out. Hope it still helps...



MikePowell
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 08:49 PM UTC
You may want to consider the hypothetical nature of the war in which the vehicle could have emerged. I believe that suggests some significant prolongation of the war beyond 1945, a prolongation that Germany could have only achieved by regaining air supremacy over both the homeland and active fronts. This would have allowed increased industrial production to create a Ratte and operational space to employ it (though I'm unclear just what purpose it was to serve).

With air superiority, the air threat is greatly diminished and the need for aerial recognition increased, so a use of the white circled swastika against a red background would seem likely. The prominent use of this marking, along with brightly colored turret tops was, of course, a regular feature of Kriegsmarine vessels while within range of German air cover. I will grant that naval practice was driven by the need to distinguish own ships from opponents' ships and you could theorize the Allies having nothing that the Luftwaffe could mistake a Ratte for, or not.

So my argument is that ground observation followed by heavy artillery attack is the threat and to that end I'd favor horizontal banding, darker colors at the bottom to blend with ground cover, then progressively lighter in grey/blues as you rise above some assumed level of average European ground cover, topping off with a very light grey, almost white. Slap a few swastika bands fore and aft, add some yellow turret tops and you're good to go! Don't worry about something to confuse as to speed and direction. This thing will maneuver at about the speed of growing grass.
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 09:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You may want to consider the hypothetical nature of the war in which the vehicle could have emerged. I believe that suggests some significant prolongation of the war beyond 1945, a prolongation that Germany could have only achieved by regaining air supremacy over both the homeland and active fronts. This would have allowed increased industrial production to create a Ratte and operational space to employ it (though I'm unclear just what purpose it was to serve).

With air superiority, the air threat is greatly diminished and the need for aerial recognition increased, so a use of the white circled swastika against a red background would seem likely. The prominent use of this marking, along with brightly colored turret tops was, of course, a regular feature of Kriegsmarine vessels while within range of German air cover. I will grant that naval practice was driven by the need to distinguish own ships from opponents' ships and you could theorize the Allies having nothing that the Luftwaffe could mistake a Ratte for, or not.

So my argument is that ground observation followed by heavy artillery attack is the threat and to that end I'd favor horizontal banding, darker colors at the bottom to blend with ground cover, then progressively lighter in grey/blues as you rise above some assumed level of average European ground cover, topping off with a very light grey, almost white. Slap a few swastika bands fore and aft, add some yellow turret tops and you're good to go! Don't worry about something to confuse as to speed and direction. This thing will maneuver at about the speed of growing grass.



Interesting points you got there. I agree that fielding such a vehicle probably means the war has taken a very different course at some point. However, even if the Gemans were to have air suppremacy I still think air attacks would remain a major threat. Just think of Soviet tactics and their (often) complete disregard for own losses. Add a little more despair (e.g. the Ratte approaching Moscow), and I can totally picture a swarm of 100 Sturmoviks on a suicide mission trying to take out that thing...

It's funny you brought about the mostly horizontal pattern. When I pictured possible camo schemes, I first thought of the British caunter scheme used in the desert war.

As regards aerial recognition, there is no way on erath a pilot will mistake the Ratte with let's say a T-34 or an IS-2. Using the swastika for propaganda is another story, of course, but one wouldn't need to actually paint it on then.



MikePowell
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Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 11:51 PM UTC
Nicolas,

I may be coming it a bit high, but I'm thinking air "supremacy", the German jets put the Wehrmacht on a footing equivalent to Coalition forces in Operation Desert Storm. Otherwise, you've got essentially the Tirpitz on tracks and 617 Squadron had experience of mounting Tallboy attacks from staging bases in the Soviet Union. So for me, the odd PO-2 is all that can get about.

Agree that even Corporal Klink can distinguish Ratte from say a Lend-Lease T-29. And I can't posit that the Soviets or even the Americans can field something of similar size if my given is German air supremacy. So your point on the unnecessity of swastika air recognition painting is well taken.

It is also interesting that you comment such wouldn't have to be painted as some Kriegsmarine ships employed painted canvas for swastika panels on their decks and, I believe, in some instances for colored turret top panels. Not to mention the national flags we see atop so many real and model armored vehicles.

Caunter had come to my mind in more verdant colors and for the upper levels especially I was mindful of First World War German naval schemes; horizontal bands from bottom to top of Red Brown (actually below water line, but might work for Ratte running gear), Anthracite Grey, Squirrel Grey and, finally, Silver grey. Designed to foil long range observation in an age before surface radar.

http://www.sms-navy.com/paint/sms_paint-overview.htm


HARV
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 02:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I would really like to see someone's idea of camo for the top/aerial view.



Hmmmm........go for the overhead dairy farm look??




Just kidding

I am enjoying watching your build. That is an awesome idea for a scratch-build project. It is looking great.

Randy
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 03:15 AM UTC
Ha Ha --- actually not a bad enough idea !
... I wouldn't bomb that ... poor little farm critters ...
MikePowell
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 03:34 AM UTC
Another thought on what's up with Ratte basking under air supremacy. What if there were Ratten operating jointly; then it would be helpful for air support, air resupply drops and landing helicopters to tell one Ratte from another. Numbers on top (single digits probably get you by) or symbology (circle, triangle, etc.) or how about two letter alpha codes (GN for Gneisenau, BR for Barbarosa or whatever name was assigned); surely they would have named them,right?
salt6
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 03:52 AM UTC
Circle or square painted on the landing pad with a designator inside it?
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 05:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Circle or square painted on the landing pad with a designator inside it?


My thoughts exactly.


Quoted Text

surely they would have named them,right?


"PK" will be the letters for this one. Way back in the blog I mentioned naming this one after our cat that passed away. "PK" fits well.

I think the camo pattern is decided, at least for the front, back, and sides. Nicolas, I hope you won't mind if I use your scheme or a variation of it (your first version)?




Mike
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 05:56 AM UTC
Great to see you're getting close enough to plan the camo Mike. I've attached a link to a build (still wip) of the 1/144th Takom Ratte which might be of interest. The builder used a "big n bold" scheme and I found it quite interesting to see how well it worked on such a big subject .....

cheers
Brent
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 06:12 AM UTC
Oy Vey! Mig's already got a paint set out for the Takom Ratte! Wonder what research that came from?

Click here ----->
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 11:02 AM UTC
It would help if I attached the link DOH!!!!!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/message/1428924419/Takom+1-144+Landkreuzer

ps Mike I'm thinking of picking up one of these and converting it into 1/72nd, so it'll be sort of a mini Ratte .....