Hosted by Darren Baker
DML M103A1 - disappointment
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 06:06 AM UTC
Maybe Dragon just reached the 'Cynical Level', where they figure anything with their name on it will sell (like a certain Japanese manufacturer). The other guys are still working their way up the ladder.
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 06:38 AM UTC
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The unfortunate reality of Dragon Models is...they're Chinese. The Chinese manufacturing sector, the biggest on earth and biggest ever in recorded history, is a heartless soulless monster dedicated to mass production and global sales. Period. Quality never comes into the discussion...
I don't see any problems with the size, the nationality, or a "heartless soulless" attitude to laissez faire business.
However, there is the other side of the business equation - the customer or potential customer. I don't care how big, or soulless or what nationality some company is, if the customers don't buy their products, that company won't stay in business, much less make a profit.
Model builders have to blame themselves to some degree for kits like DML's M103. Every crappy DML T28 bought and sold was just more incentive for DML to cut research and development corners with their M103. And every crappy M103 that's bought and sold continues that incentive for DML to cut corners on their next release.
Every modeler everywhere that has bought one of these M103s and who was willing to settle for less than what the kit should have been, shares some of the blame for the next DML mess (and not just DML, either...). The origins of the crappy M103 lie with the sales (i.e. modelers buying them) of the crappy T28, and if the next DML kit falls down in the accuracy area, sales of the M103 will be partly to blame.
There's a lot of complaining going on about the T28 and the M103 and a lot of pre-release angst about how accurate the M6 will be.
If you don't want crappy kits, don't buy crappy kits, and to rip apart those modelers who're willing to step up and throw the "BS flag" when some crappy kit has hit the market just makes the situation worse for us all.
Don't buy these kits, and either the manufacturer will change and give us what we want, or they'll go out of business because their kits are not selling, and some other kit maker will step up and take their place.
Nationality, size or business ethics don't really matter here. What matters is whether the kits sell or not, and every crappy kit that does sell is one less reason for the next kit to be better. Manufacturers will always try to cut corners and maximize profit, but the consumer has all the potential profit in his pocket until he makes the purchase, so he also has at least half the influence on the process.
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 07:04 AM UTC
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Have you thought about making a new M103 kit with Hunnicutt's plans?
I've talked with Ted about this, and the decision is no. With this kit out there, all of the potential sales of a resin kit are out of the question, since the modelers will buy the less expensive kit. As Pawel mentions about, a "correction" kit would entail replacing just about everything, so that's out of the question too. We'll just move on to the next kit...
Jon
T-29 heavy tank???!!! Great news, I would buy a couple of such kits. When it will be available for order?
About dragon m-103 kit - there is nothing left but to wait the accurate (I hope) rb metal barrel.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 08:46 AM UTC
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Model builders have to blame themselves to some degree for kits like DML's M103. Every crappy DML T28 bought and sold was just more incentive for DML to cut research and development corners with their M103. And every crappy M103 that's bought and sold continues that incentive for DML to cut corners on their next release.
Absolutely! Why in the world should _any_ company spend money on R&D and tooling if they make the more profits producing crap than producing quality?
I bought an M103A1 because I already have a good start on an accurate turret and hull due to earlier efforts. If I didn't have them, I wouldn't have buoght the kit no matter how much I really want an M103 model on the shelf. As it is, it appears I will likely be using even less of the kit than I thought to go with my existing parts. Which makes the suckage even greater!
I didn't buy the T28 bcause the basic vehicle doesn't excite me much and the problems were too severe for me to correct with my level of disinterest.
I'm not buying the Kpz 70 just yet because I want to see a comprehensive evaluation of its accuracy due to the T28 and the 103.
Similarly, I won't be buying the M6A1 until someone does a similar comparison. If no-one falls on their sword on that one, my money will remain in my pocket.
I do not buy Academy kits until there has been a good evaluation. If these companies go belly up due to poor sales, so be it. Make crap and you don't get my money on a regular basis.
That's the hard reality of business. Want my money, make accurate products with a fair value.
Paul
1.90E_31
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Armorama: 154 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 10:08 AM UTC
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T-29 heavy tank???!!! Great news, I would buy a couple of such kits. When it will be available for order?
Not for a few months. Pattern's not done, and both Ted and I have instructions for other kits to draw. Also, economic realities will slow us down even more than having other stuff to do.
Jon
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 04:51 PM UTC
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T-29 heavy tank???!!! Great news, I would buy a couple of such kits. When it will be available for order?
Not for a few months. Pattern's not done, and both Ted and I have instructions for other kits to draw. Also, economic realities will slow us down even more than having other stuff to do.
Jon
It is a pity. I hope next year it will be ready, al least I hope you will have enough patience and effort not to throw your work with t-29. And it seems questions about your future plans regarding t-30 or t-34 are premature currently.
1.90E_31
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Armorama: 154 posts
Posted: Monday, May 05, 2014 - 11:35 PM UTC
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It is a pity. I hope next year it will be ready, al least I hope you will have enough patience and effort not to throw your work with t-29. And it seems questions about your future plans regarding t-30 or t-34 are premature currently.
Kris,
It all depends on what happens in the next months. Things could change. As for the kit, the design allows for replacement of the engine deck and rear plate in order to make this a T30 or T34. That's some of the parts that are not built yet. All of this will be built before anything goes into molds so that these options are available for the future.
Jon
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 05:14 AM UTC
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It is a pity. I hope next year it will be ready, al least I hope you will have enough patience and effort not to throw your work with t-29. And it seems questions about your future plans regarding t-30 or t-34 are premature currently.
Kris,
It all depends on what happens in the next months. Things could change. As for the kit, the design allows for replacement of the engine deck and rear plate in order to make this a T30 or T34. That's some of the parts that are not built yet. All of this will be built before anything goes into molds so that these options are available for the future.
Jon
Ok. I wish you to complete this beautiful tank until some manufacturer makes it.
DrPlastic
Joined: June 15, 2009
KitMaker: 21 posts
Armorama: 4 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 02:10 AM UTC
All measurements aside, I am building it as that is what one does with model kit. I have found two things. First the kit's solid barrel in my kit was horrendously warped and unusable and the worst offender is that after assembling the basic hull with the exhaust in place and basic turret, the turret contacts the exhaust shroud and is bad enough that it prevents the turret from turning.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, May 12, 2014 - 06:41 AM UTC
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First the kit's solid barrel in my kit was horrendously warped and unusable
Looks like you got one of the kits with a short (or nearly short) shot sprue. A number of other buyers got kits with malformed fenders.
Not much to do about that until someone (RB perhpas) comes out with a replacement.
Regarding the turret flaw there's nothing you can do with that short of rebuilding it, I'm afraid except to choose a turret angle where the exhaust either fits under the turret or the turret is angled off to the side enough where it isn't an issue.
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall during the design meetings on this one.
Paul
1.90E_31
Joined: December 24, 2004
KitMaker: 252 posts
Armorama: 154 posts
Posted: Friday, May 16, 2014 - 06:42 AM UTC
Kris,
OK, now we start the next phase of the work. Three of the four pattern options are done, so we can start pre-production work. Here are the options:
T-29
T-30:
T-34:
The T29E3 can't be built since I need a copy of the upper turret to make the mods. That's next.
Jon
OK, now we start the next phase of the work. Three of the four pattern options are done, so we can start pre-production work. Here are the options:
T-29
T-30:
T-34:
The T29E3 can't be built since I need a copy of the upper turret to make the mods. That's next.
Jon
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Friday, May 16, 2014 - 07:03 AM UTC
Well, I very much want that T29! I am planning on harvesting the barrel from my T28, since the kit should give me at least one useful thing.
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 06:49 AM UTC
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Kris,
OK, now we start the next phase of the work. Three of the four pattern options are done, so we can start pre-production work. Here are the options:
T-29
T-30:
T-34:
The T29E3 can't be built since I need a copy of the upper turret to make the mods. That's next.
Jon
Jon
thank you very much for your photos, I have been waiting for any update of your work on T-29 family. I am sure you must finish the work you have already started. I would like to order per one model of each type - t29, t30, t34, t29e3.
I hope next week you will have new updates and photos of your progress.
MikePowell
Joined: March 19, 2010
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 17 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 11:04 AM UTC
Please,how about a new thread on the T-29 etc? This thread began with Vodnik's work on the M103A1 and his developments and research merit their own thread in my opinion.
While the T-29 is interesting, it's disappointing to find a new post here and discover it doesn't relate to the M103A!
Mike Powell
While the T-29 is interesting, it's disappointing to find a new post here and discover it doesn't relate to the M103A!
Mike Powell
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 05:01 PM UTC
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Please,how about a new thread on the T-29 etc? This thread began with Vodnik's work on the M103A1 and his developments and research merit their own thread in my opinion.
While the T-29 is interesting, it's disappointing to find a new post here and discover it doesn't relate to the M103A!
Mike Powell
Mike
I understood and agree with you, but currently there is not much information about T-29 family and, in my opinion, it is not worth to create the new thread only about T-29 (if you don't mind, of course).
Regarding M-103 kit - yesterday I wrote a letter to RM model about M-103 gun barrel and got this answer:
"...yes, I'm going to produce this barrel. To be honest, this barrel is already produced and it is waiting for adding to the web site."
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2014 - 03:33 PM UTC
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I understood and agree with you, but currently there is not much information about T-29 family and, in my opinion, it is not worth to create the new thread only about T-29 (if you don't mind, of course).
Frankly, the lack of available T29 info is the _perfect_ reason to start a new thread. If anyone is looking for T29 stuff, they won't think to look at a thread called M103.
Threads are free! Start lots of them, one for each new topic. It becomes much easier to find things that way. :-)
Paul
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2014 - 04:07 PM UTC
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Regarding M-103 kit - yesterday I wrote a letter to RM model about M-103 gun barrel and got this answer:
"...yes, I'm going to produce this barrel. To be honest, this barrel is already produced and it is waiting for adding to the web site."
You mean RB Model? Yes, it's coming soon.
avenue
Joined: May 25, 2013
KitMaker: 544 posts
Armorama: 542 posts
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2014 - 04:26 PM UTC
I just brought one my self,and it was disappointment,DML do not put enough effort,and may trying to cut cost.
Let's hope AFV club or meng will come up with there own M-103 kit.
Let's hope AFV club or meng will come up with there own M-103 kit.
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Monday, May 19, 2014 - 05:10 PM UTC
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Regarding M-103 kit - yesterday I wrote a letter to RM model about M-103 gun barrel and got this answer:
"...yes, I'm going to produce this barrel. To be honest, this barrel is already produced and it is waiting for adding to the web site."
You mean RB Model? Yes, it's coming soon.
Yeah, you are right, I meant RB Model.
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Let's hope AFV club or meng will come up with there own M-103 kit.
I think it is not likely at all, do not believe in it.
kris1983
Joined: May 04, 2014
KitMaker: 12 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 01:24 AM UTC
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 01:54 AM UTC
That barrel looks very nice. It's kind of like putting a ruby on a pile of dog poop but it can only help. . .
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 11:55 PM UTC
It does indeed. Hopefully I'll have a sample tomorrow to verify if it matches the dimensions I provided to the RB Model, but I have no reason to doubt it does.
The barrel has been designed to fit to the kit mantlet, regardless of the fact that it is much too small. But there were no compromises made in dimensions of the visible part of the barrel - it is accurate.
I also have a prototype of my 3D printed mantlet, but I'm waiting for the new barrel to show both parts together. In the end I decided against creating a complete design in CAD, so the 3D printed part is somewhat simplified and requires some additional shaping with a sanding stick to give it proper shape, but I decided it will take less time than designing the fully correct shape in CAD.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 03:44 AM UTC
okievit
Joined: June 18, 2003
KitMaker: 225 posts
Armorama: 206 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 04:46 AM UTC
Looks great Pawel, I'll take one of both 
Thanks for your efforts!
Olaf
Thanks for your efforts!
Olaf
odiesan
Joined: May 18, 2008
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 09:02 AM UTC
I see they are available on eBay already
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120mm-M58-METAL-BARREL-TO-M103-M103A1-M103A2-HEAVY-TANKS-35B132-1-35-RB-NEW-/380910313595?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item58b006207b
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120mm-M58-METAL-BARREL-TO-M103-M103A1-M103A2-HEAVY-TANKS-35B132-1-35-RB-NEW-/380910313595?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item58b006207b
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