Яusso-Soviэt Forum: Cold War Soviet Armor
For discussions related to cold war era Russo-Soviet armor.
For discussions related to cold war era Russo-Soviet armor.
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Hard criticism on Trumpeter´s model kits
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 01:48 PM UTC
What plastic injection manufacturer is without a few "off" kits? If you can name one manufacturer, I will only buy from them.
Grauwolf
#084
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 01:55 PM UTC
Nenad,
You identify yourself as "PatriotaModels", a company that offers conversions and corrections, right?
So what is the problem???....just cash in on Trumpeter's mistakes and sell some conversions and corrections!
Cheers,
Joe
You identify yourself as "PatriotaModels", a company that offers conversions and corrections, right?
So what is the problem???....just cash in on Trumpeter's mistakes and sell some conversions and corrections!
Cheers,
Joe
bwiber
Joined: August 03, 2008
KitMaker: 436 posts
Armorama: 320 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:06 PM UTC
I read things like this and start to feel that I am not a modeler.... I don't count the rivets, I don't measure each weld seam, I don't do a engineering analysis of the curves.
I just build the model that I want. I know that there are errors, both in the kit (no kit is perfect) and in the way I build it. But as minimal as my skills are, I have fun and I don't sweat the BS.
Yes, I have started to build a Trumpeter kit I hated.... so I quit building it. I have built a Trumpeter kit I loved.... and I bought another in the KV series because I had fun building the first one.
I am sorry I am not the modeler you are, but how dare you tell me that I don't count because I might build a Panzer? I might only be a kit assembler, but I happen to have fun. I really doubt that you do, and for that, I am sorry for you...
Bob
I just build the model that I want. I know that there are errors, both in the kit (no kit is perfect) and in the way I build it. But as minimal as my skills are, I have fun and I don't sweat the BS.
Yes, I have started to build a Trumpeter kit I hated.... so I quit building it. I have built a Trumpeter kit I loved.... and I bought another in the KV series because I had fun building the first one.
I am sorry I am not the modeler you are, but how dare you tell me that I don't count because I might build a Panzer? I might only be a kit assembler, but I happen to have fun. I really doubt that you do, and for that, I am sorry for you...
Bob
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I read things like this and start to feel that I am not a modeler.... I don't count the rivets, I don't measure each weld seam, I don't do a engineering analysis of the curves.
I just build the model that I want. I know that there are errors, both in the kit (no kit is perfect) and in the way I build it. But as minimal as my skills are, I have fun and I don't sweat the BS.
Yes, I have started to build a Trumpeter kit I hated.... so I quit building it. I have built a Trumpeter kit I loved.... and I bought another in the KV series because I had fun building the first one.
I am sorry I am not the modeler you are, but how dare you tell me that I don't count because I might build a Panzer? I might only be a kit assembler, but I happen to have fun. I really doubt that you do, and for that, I am sorry for you...
Bob
Remember, "Have fun".
BBD468
Joined: March 08, 2010
KitMaker: 2,465 posts
Armorama: 2,383 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:49 PM UTC
And this type stuff is why i rarely visit here anymore. What happened to Build what ya like, how ya like, when ya like and just have fun doing it! Isnt that what its supposed to be about? Everyone has their way of building models and people like different kits or several different brands. Ya got an opinion on a kit and want to chat about it constructively, then do so and you will get a nice thread.
Matt Nethery said it...."Have Fun!"
Gary
Matt Nethery said it...."Have Fun!"
Gary
tanknick22
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 03:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There is a simple solution for your problem with Trumpeter kits.
If you dont like them, dont buy them !!!
I made this decision a few years ago about Dragon.
Their kits are also full of mistakes !!!
You say that Trumpeter has releaesed all models on your list which you have send them a few years ago, which other manufacturer does this ?
NONE !!!!
So why do you complain about Trumpeter ?
I for myself like their kits and if i have to correct some things on a kit than i do this , thats what i call modelling.
Who cares for WWII anymore?
Me and about thousands of other modellers.
Thats just my opinion.
Have a nice day
Cheers
he has serious issues
Bodeen
#026
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
Armorama: 1,359 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 04:32 PM UTC
This is a site for modelers of every level of talent and every interest. There are a lot of serious modelers(rivet counters..if you will) who want to have an accurate kit right out of the box..I don't blame them. There are people like me who like to be accurate but are unwilling or unable to put forth the effort needed to make a kit as accurate as possible.I read as many reviews as possible to find out which kits are universally praised or panned...then I make my decision on what to buy. I have built Trumpeter's KV-1 and KV-2 kits and I love them. I have the Sd.Kfz.7 in the stash and it looks like a decent kit, though it didn't get rave reviews, I got it for a great price. The little Aerosan kit in my stash looks very nice, too.
Bottom line....Trumpeter makes some nice stuff and they make some crap (their figures are horrible).
The fact that WWII subjects far outsell all other areas of interest must be lost on you. I personally don't build anything that dates after the Korean War.
I think that you should build what you like from the manufacturers that you like and, most of all, have fun doing it.
Jeff
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 05:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There is a simple solution for your problem with Trumpeter kits.
If you dont like them, dont buy them !!!
I made this decision a few years ago about Dragon.
Their kits are also full of mistakes !!!
You say that Trumpeter has releaesed all models on your list which you have send them a few years ago, which other manufacturer does this ?
NONE !!!!
So why do you complain about Trumpeter ?
I for myself like their kits and if i have to correct some things on a kit than i do this , thats what i call modelling.
Who cares for WWII anymore?
Me and about thousands of other modellers.
Thats just my opinion.
Have a nice day
Cheers
Who cares about WWII anymore? THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF US, THAT'S WHO!!! You need to go back and check on how many articles, forums and new releases there have been just in the last few weeks of WWII AFV kits...
I agree with the other modelers that are responding to your rant over TRUMPETER's models: IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM, DON'T BUY THEM!!!
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014 - 06:16 PM UTC
Ok, my turn.
I understand the need or want to rant sometimes. You get frustrated by these and other things and they eventually come to a head and need to be "popped" so to speak. I get it. But maybe, sometimes, it might be better to write these things out in a word document, or similar format that you can copy and paste here, that way you have the opportunity to edit, really and carefully edit not only your text but your thoughts. See how they actually look and read from another's perspective. How someone else is going to see this and how others, as a result might perceive you and your thoughts.
I have found that sometimes my emotions get the better of me too and I go off. But if I have the presence if mind to take a step back and do as I suggested above I have often found that half the time I do not end up using what I wrote and the other half I severely edit so that the tone is less immediately hostile and aggressive. Sometimes this makes it easier for others to digeste your information and your point of view.
I agree that there are models from trumpeter with inaccuracies! both big and small! but then again thee are with every manufacturer. Nothing is perfect, yet. Nor does it need to be. What is not perfect you either accept or you change, by one means or another. This is the most amazing time to be a model builder, weather you are an OOB or rivet counter! we have more options available to us now then ever before. Be thankful for what we have but always demand better. But maybe, demand in the right forum and in the right way. A thoughtful letter to trumpeter might go farther than a rant on Armorama, although this is obviously getting some attention, Cheers
I understand the need or want to rant sometimes. You get frustrated by these and other things and they eventually come to a head and need to be "popped" so to speak. I get it. But maybe, sometimes, it might be better to write these things out in a word document, or similar format that you can copy and paste here, that way you have the opportunity to edit, really and carefully edit not only your text but your thoughts. See how they actually look and read from another's perspective. How someone else is going to see this and how others, as a result might perceive you and your thoughts.
I have found that sometimes my emotions get the better of me too and I go off. But if I have the presence if mind to take a step back and do as I suggested above I have often found that half the time I do not end up using what I wrote and the other half I severely edit so that the tone is less immediately hostile and aggressive. Sometimes this makes it easier for others to digeste your information and your point of view.
I agree that there are models from trumpeter with inaccuracies! both big and small! but then again thee are with every manufacturer. Nothing is perfect, yet. Nor does it need to be. What is not perfect you either accept or you change, by one means or another. This is the most amazing time to be a model builder, weather you are an OOB or rivet counter! we have more options available to us now then ever before. Be thankful for what we have but always demand better. But maybe, demand in the right forum and in the right way. A thoughtful letter to trumpeter might go farther than a rant on Armorama, although this is obviously getting some attention, Cheers
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 02:37 AM UTC
That's the rub. It seems that buying models from ANY company is a crapshoot. You have to rely on what others say about them I guess.
Gundwan
Joined: June 21, 2010
KitMaker: 18 posts
Armorama: 10 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 02:50 AM UTC
"Who cares for WWII anymore?".....we do the more ww2 stuff out there the better .....
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 03:14 AM UTC
I don't come on here for a day and... 
Anyhow...
While I appreciate people offering criticism, nothing in the hobby is perfect, I prefer it to be CONSTRUCTIVE. Anyone who wants to just VENT their frustration can very easily message me. I am happy to let you vent your frustration. I really mean that...venting usually has a root problem in a kit...just like this one.
IF you find that you just cannot contain your frustration to ONE person, then I suggest you do it as a kit review or a BLOG, so that we can see the issue, researched, and how the problem relates to the rest of the kit.
For example, is the Late D-30's only issue the muzzle break? What other problems are there, if any? Did everyone's kit come like this? Is it possible Trumpeter labeled the kit incorrectly? These are questions to be discussed and can lead to highly informative threads others can use to avoid a bad kit, understand what the kit represents, and gain solutions to problems a kit may pose.
So Nenad, are you up to doing a review or Blog on this?
Anyhow...
While I appreciate people offering criticism, nothing in the hobby is perfect, I prefer it to be CONSTRUCTIVE. Anyone who wants to just VENT their frustration can very easily message me. I am happy to let you vent your frustration. I really mean that...venting usually has a root problem in a kit...just like this one.
IF you find that you just cannot contain your frustration to ONE person, then I suggest you do it as a kit review or a BLOG, so that we can see the issue, researched, and how the problem relates to the rest of the kit.
For example, is the Late D-30's only issue the muzzle break? What other problems are there, if any? Did everyone's kit come like this? Is it possible Trumpeter labeled the kit incorrectly? These are questions to be discussed and can lead to highly informative threads others can use to avoid a bad kit, understand what the kit represents, and gain solutions to problems a kit may pose.
So Nenad, are you up to doing a review or Blog on this?
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:45 AM UTC
After a bit of research, here is the basic deal:
D-30 (early): Slotted baffle
D-30 (late): Slotted baffle with changed towing lug location
D-30A (or D-30M): New "double" baffle.
D-30J: Locally made Serbian D-30A.
Hope that helps clear it up a bit.
D-30 (early): Slotted baffle
D-30 (late): Slotted baffle with changed towing lug location
D-30A (or D-30M): New "double" baffle.
D-30J: Locally made Serbian D-30A.
Hope that helps clear it up a bit.
jointhepit
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 3,829 posts
Armorama: 881 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 08:39 AM UTC
"He has a point though, although there are better ways to go about making it. There really is no excuse for manufacturers these days to release kits with such glaring errors with the amount of 1:1 originals in existence, and the technology at their disposal. With the amount of money we spend on a given kit we have the right to expect accuracy. Yes, we are modelers but there's a limit to what we should have to take from model companies. "
agree just getting the type of vehicle right according to the description on the box seems hard these days...
but if it's the only stick to play with, it's better then nothing....
agree just getting the type of vehicle right according to the description on the box seems hard these days...
but if it's the only stick to play with, it's better then nothing....
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 11:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And this type stuff is why i rarely visit here anymore.
That doesn't make any sense. This only comes up in a few threads, and if it is in one that otherwise interests you, ignore it. Abandoning a forum neither helps you or stops them.
Quoted Text
What happened to Build what ya like, how ya like, when ya like and just have fun doing it!
It never went away. If that's what you like, no internet posting from someone a half a world away should deter you. Even if it is a direct challenge, I don't follow why anyone would stop posting or feel forced to change their enjoyment of a hobby.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 11:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
For example, is the Late D-30's only issue the muzzle brake? . . . Did everyone's kit come like this? Is it possible Trumpeter labeled the kit incorrectly?
FYI, there is a slight goof by Trumpeter but it doesn't affect anything. You can see the instructions and layout on Hobby Search. Both kits show multi-baffle brakes in the instructions, box art, and marking profiles. The "late" kit shows a double baffle brake in the finished line/CAD drawing, but that's it. The only differences in the kits are exactly as you have described, Jacques: slight tweaks in the muzzle brake and towbar. The muzzle brakes are sprues D1 and D4 in the early kit and D3 in the late kit. I presume that D2 is the double baffle brake.
The error that I see is that someone mistook "D-30 late" for D-30M/A. That's not Trumpeter's fault.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 12:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There really is no excuse for manufacturers these days to release kits with such glaring errors with the amount of 1:1 originals in existence, and the technology at their disposal.
I can think of three reasons right away. Not sure if you consider them "excuses" or not:
1. Insufficient money.
2. Insufficient time.
3. Insufficient skill or knowledge.
These are all inter-related, you see, and it's usually impossible to mediate the effects of one aspect because they are suffering from one or two of the others as well.
Quoted Text
With the amount of money we spend on a given kit we have the right to expect accuracy.
I would argue that for the great majority of kits from the first rank companies we get that. Accuracy that is, not perfection.
Quoted Text
Yes, we are modelers but there's a limit to what we should have to take from model companies.
You aren't forced to "take" anything. "Accept" compromises of varying degrees to get the subjects we want in the scales we want in the media we want while remaining economically viable and buildable, yes. "Take" anything, no.
KL
kandahar
Joined: December 29, 2013
KitMaker: 52 posts
Armorama: 52 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 01:11 PM UTC
To my mind the issue is being incorrectly defined - it is not accuracy or not per se but HOW MUCH accuracy is desired. All model companies offer a general degree of accuracy - you can recognise the model as a replica of the prototype. That qualifies as being 'accurate' to some degree. However, one runs into problems when one starts to determine how closely one wants the model to conform to the prototype. Some big Chinese companies tend to reside at the lower end of the scale in this respect. It is up to the modeller to decide how much accuracy is acceptable to them personally and then avoid the companies which do not meet their personal standards. Of course that may mean not being able to make a replica of a particular prototype but then that is the price one pays. However, companies which do fail regularly to conform to the higher standards do need to be called out on this issue - I feel that the information should be out there no matter what so that all potential buyers can make a fully informed buying decision.
young_sven
Joined: May 14, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 04:51 PM UTC
I am curious to the reference to "some Chinese companies" being at the "lower end of the scale".
It seems to me as if the Chinese are the ones who have brought true innovation into the hobby, both in subject choice and superior molding technology.
SOME non Chinese companies seem often to be satisfied with reboxing old models, and I would argue that some/most of the plastic models coming from the western (and SOME eastern european) manufacturers don't hold a candle to the Chinese ones (often much more clunky in detail etc).
For me, modeling is about doing the best I can with the model I have to work with, whether it is a high tech kit released last week, or an old Tamiya model from the 70's. Sure, I enjoy perfect accuracy just like anyone else, but I am also happy to try and stretch my own skills and try to fix said inaccuracies (if they actually bother me).
Having said that, blatant and avoidable mistakes are an annoyance, I agree.
We are all different, but I for one am happy that the Chinese companies such as Bronco, Meng, Takom, Trumpeter, Hobbyboss etc are providing us with top class kits of subjects we could only dream about a few years ago.
Tamiya, Italeri, Revell etc... well, they seem stuck in a rut to be honest (even though Tamiya do seem to be waking up from their deep sleep of many years now, at least a little).
No matter what, nobody is perfect.
It seems to me as if the Chinese are the ones who have brought true innovation into the hobby, both in subject choice and superior molding technology.
SOME non Chinese companies seem often to be satisfied with reboxing old models, and I would argue that some/most of the plastic models coming from the western (and SOME eastern european) manufacturers don't hold a candle to the Chinese ones (often much more clunky in detail etc).
For me, modeling is about doing the best I can with the model I have to work with, whether it is a high tech kit released last week, or an old Tamiya model from the 70's. Sure, I enjoy perfect accuracy just like anyone else, but I am also happy to try and stretch my own skills and try to fix said inaccuracies (if they actually bother me).
Having said that, blatant and avoidable mistakes are an annoyance, I agree.
We are all different, but I for one am happy that the Chinese companies such as Bronco, Meng, Takom, Trumpeter, Hobbyboss etc are providing us with top class kits of subjects we could only dream about a few years ago.
Tamiya, Italeri, Revell etc... well, they seem stuck in a rut to be honest (even though Tamiya do seem to be waking up from their deep sleep of many years now, at least a little).
No matter what, nobody is perfect.
kandahar
Joined: December 29, 2013
KitMaker: 52 posts
Armorama: 52 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 05:54 PM UTC
The phrase needs to be read in conjunction with the previous sentence. Whilst Chinese companies may indeed have improved things with regard to subject choice and moulding technology one cannot say the same with conforming accurately to the prototype they represent. As I stated it comes down to HOW MUCH accuracy you want.
young_sven
Joined: May 14, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 06:08 PM UTC
Thanks for the clarification, Christopher.
I fully respect your opinion, even though I don't 100% agree with it in a general sense.
Putting "Chinese companies" and "not conforming to the prototype" (or words to that affect) in the same sentence is a bit of of a broad generalisation, and could be true for basically any manufacturer out there - Chinese or not.
But you are right, it is really a matter of how much accuracy one is looking for in a model (and how much work a modeller wishes to do to make it more accurate).
If one is looking to a 100% perfect replica of the original, with every minute detail exactly as per the real vehicle, then I dare say that any model kit out there will disappoint.
I fully respect your opinion, even though I don't 100% agree with it in a general sense.
Putting "Chinese companies" and "not conforming to the prototype" (or words to that affect) in the same sentence is a bit of of a broad generalisation, and could be true for basically any manufacturer out there - Chinese or not.
But you are right, it is really a matter of how much accuracy one is looking for in a model (and how much work a modeller wishes to do to make it more accurate).
If one is looking to a 100% perfect replica of the original, with every minute detail exactly as per the real vehicle, then I dare say that any model kit out there will disappoint.
C_JACQUEMONT
Joined: October 09, 2004
KitMaker: 2,433 posts
Armorama: 2,325 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 06:59 PM UTC
Me I'm happy with Trumpeter kits in general, although there are some that are better than others.
Just one nitpick about people praising their KV series to high heaven, this used to be justified BEFORE Trumpeter dropped the ball with the KV-1S and KV-85. The ones before were excellent.
Cheers,
Christophe
Just one nitpick about people praising their KV series to high heaven, this used to be justified BEFORE Trumpeter dropped the ball with the KV-1S and KV-85. The ones before were excellent.
Cheers,
Christophe
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:15 PM UTC
In general I agree that pointing out inaccuracies is a useful thing ... when forward in a less emotional/aggressive way they are very helpful in coming to a conclusion to buy or not to buy !
Yesterday I read some reviews on the new TAKOM Leopard 1A5 -C2 ... I preordered the MENG Leo and was left disappointed ... so with the help of these reviews my choice is to skip the TAKOM kit because it doesn't offer a get improvement for 65€ and keep on waiting, but that certainly does not mean the TAKOM kits fail in general .... only this one does till I get to open the box and have a look myself.
There have been some bad apples lately from quite a few manufactures ... but the good apples still keep coming ... so thankx for that.
Cheers
Christopher
Yesterday I read some reviews on the new TAKOM Leopard 1A5 -C2 ... I preordered the MENG Leo and was left disappointed ... so with the help of these reviews my choice is to skip the TAKOM kit because it doesn't offer a get improvement for 65€ and keep on waiting, but that certainly does not mean the TAKOM kits fail in general .... only this one does till I get to open the box and have a look myself.
There have been some bad apples lately from quite a few manufactures ... but the good apples still keep coming ... so thankx for that.
Cheers
Christopher
1721Lancers
Joined: March 21, 2012
KitMaker: 1,673 posts
Armorama: 1,640 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 03:47 AM UTC
Hey mate, these so-called bad kits are keeping your job and paycheck coming in.
Just think about that for moment.
After you have thought about it, start having fun with building
or just leave it to the others who wish to.
Here's something else to think about, what would you do if someone said the aftermarket stuff from Patriota Models was "müll" rubbish
Signature
(from a happy modeller who has many brands in the stash from A to Z, but without PaMo)
Paul Badman
Just think about that for moment.
After you have thought about it, start having fun with building
or just leave it to the others who wish to.
Here's something else to think about, what would you do if someone said the aftermarket stuff from Patriota Models was "müll" rubbish
Signature
(from a happy modeller who has many brands in the stash from A to Z, but without PaMo)
Paul Badman
BBD468
Joined: March 08, 2010
KitMaker: 2,465 posts
Armorama: 2,383 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 02:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Signature
(from a happy modeller who has many brands in the stash from A to Z, but without PaMo)
Paul Badman
Right on Brother Paul, me too! I love all models...some better than others, but im just happy to have a stash.
Gary
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