Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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New Book- The Sherman Tank Scandal of WWII
mkenny
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Posted: Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 10:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

US tankers ultimately prevailed, but over 60,000 armored division soldiers were killed and wounded; their preventable sacrifice inspired the Hollywood movie Fury.





Not going to bother checking the numbers but I am sure the author knows that the biggest manpower losses in an Armored Division falls on the infantry Regiments.
DG0542
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Posted: Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 10:54 PM UTC
Has anyone gone and read the website teh Chieftain's hatch or listen to the Operation Think Tank on You Tube...almost everything said here is reported to be myth and backed up with US Army Documents.

1) The US and Britain did tank studies and found that the Panther was 1.2 times better than the Sherman, and that most tank on tank battles were won by who saw first and shot first.

2) The 76mm with HVAP was tested versus the 17pdr, and the US didn't adopt the 17pdr because it was an okay gun, the 76mm was just as good, and its another piece of ammo in the logistical nightmare.

3) The wet stowage bins were dis-used post war, and that the biggest success was the movement of ammo from sponsons to the floor.

4) the 5 to 1 ratio for Sherman versus Panther, was based on the smallest US Army tactical unit was a Platoon of five tanks.

5) The 76mm was always planned to be fitted into the M4 and they had it ready in 1942, but was rejected because the fightablity for the M1 Gun in the early round Sherman turret.

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 11:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

snipped, see earlier post if interested



Hey Robin

I think you totally missed my point, it was to try and get some of the generalisations made here backed up by sources that could be read and evaluated (by both sides of the argument).

We freely critise the WOT world for things like this thread but so many statements in here are just as guilty of loose history. Hearsay, repeating commentary from National Geographic war videos and personal bias are not balanced views ....

Really interesting that the guy who stirred all this up is the author of the "new" book and his only ongoing contribution is to again promote said book. Almost everything after the initial announcement has been over-reaction with the usual "mines bigger, better and badder" than yours dosed with more than a touch of national jingoism .... [/quote]

Point taken :-) Facts are always better than no facts or simple hearsay but when there are a number of comments about the rational or irrational fear of JaBo's then there probably was a widespread fear of JaBo's (even if that fear was based on hearsay and fantasy ...)
/ Robin
Scarred
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

US tankers ultimately prevailed, but over 60,000 armored division soldiers were killed and wounded; their preventable sacrifice inspired the Hollywood movie Fury.





Not going to bother checking the numbers but I am sure the author knows that the biggest manpower losses in an Armored Division falls on the infantry Regiments.



Yeah, I'd like to see a breakdown of tank crews vs infantry, whether they were from direct fire or indirect fire (artillery), land mines, snipers, infantry assaults and fratricide.
mkenny
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 03:57 AM UTC
Take the Polish Armoured Division.
1944-45.

KIA 1157
WIA 3514

4671 Casualties.

Infantry
833 KIA
2573 WIA

Tank Crews
324 KIA
941 WIA

Inf 3406
Tank 1265

You can see how just giving the total 'Armoured Division' casualties can create a false impression of tank crew losses.

There were a further 900 casualties in the other parts of the Division.
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 04:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Take the Polish Armoured Division.
1944-45.

KIA 1157
WIA 3514

4671 Casualties.

Infantry
833 KIA
2573 WIA

Tank Crews
324 KIA
941 WIA

Inf 3406
Tank 1265

You can see how just giving the total 'Armoured Division' casualties can create a false impression of tank crew losses.

There were a further 900 casualties in the other parts of the Division.



And I bet a large number of those casualties occurred in Normandy pre-breakout too. The Poles were inexperienced and by all accounts pretty impetuous, at least at first. Another of those great units though where Elan and Dash invariably lead to relatively higher casualty rates.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 05:04 AM UTC
I haven't addressed the book yet but here I will, for what it's worth.

Either way, the "... over 60,000 armored division soldiers were killed and wounded..." is sensationalism. It does not say how many tankers were actually killed in their tanks in combat. That's just like saying that a person who died from a stroke while crossing a quiet street and car crash victims are both traffic fatalities. Well, no, one IS a traffic fatality and the other is death from a stroke (I'm sorry but I'm not sure how to categorize a stroke and I apologize for the sensitive nature of this example). They are two completely separate and unrelated events. What this part of the book description is saying, is that some poor Joe who is a part of X-number Armored Division who has no armored support near him, gets killed and the blame for that poor guy's death is pinned on the M4 Sherman. That is what that description tells me. Would I be correct in assuming so?

Frankly I feel that on subjects such as these, people need to be educated instead of sensationalized. I would gladly give my money to authors who use well researched, historical and reputable sources in their work with the intention of sparking interest in the area and educating with trustable material. Those who do use sensationalitic or opinionated material I will avoid as much as I can.
Scarred
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 05:23 AM UTC
Calling the Sherman a flaming death trap is sensationalism too. Case in point: Lafayette Pool. He had three Shermans shot out from under him, all named "In The Mood" numbered I thru III. He had the same crew through out the war and his crew called him War Daddy. According to Sherman critics this was impossible, that he should have been dead when his first tank, an M4A1 was destroyed by friendly fire. That fact that he and his crew survived shoots holes in the claims it was a dangerous tank.
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 05:48 AM UTC
"1) The US and Britain did tank studies and found that the Panther was 1.2 times better than the Sherman, and that most tank on tank battles were won by who saw first and shot first."

A) The advantage of the Panther was the high velocity long range gun and a thick front slope. In a lot of France, the long range advantage was lost due to terrain. So the Sherman was close enough frequently due to terrain to put a round through the side of the Panther. Had the Shermans been on the the steps of Russia, the loss ratio might have played more to the Panthers advantage.

"2) The original 76mm with HVAP was tested versus the 17pdr, and the US didn't adopt the 17pdr because it was an okay gun, the 76mm was just as good, and its another piece of ammo in the logistical nightmare."

B) Maybe the 76mm was equal to the 17 pounder (If the HVAP ammo had been readily avaiable to all crews), but when you cut down the barrel length, the comparison is thrown out the door. They were disappointed with the short 76 compared to the long barreled 17 pounder.

"4) the 5 to 1 ratio for Sherman versus Panther, was based on the smallest US Army tactical unit was a Platoon of five tanks."

C) I'm not sure what you meant. Did it take 5 Sherman's to kill 1 Panther or did you mean 5 Sherman's were knocked out for each Panther? Quite frequently tanks operated attached at less than a platoon. Maintenance issues etc...

"Calling the Sherman a flaming death trap is sensationalism too. Case in point: Lafayette Pool. He had three Shermans shot out from under him, all named "In The Mood" numbered I thru III. He had the same crew through out the war and his crew called him War Daddy. According to Sherman critics this was impossible, that he should have been dead when his first tank, an M4A1 was destroyed by friendly fire. That fact that he and his crew survived shoots holes in the claims it was a dangerous tank."

D) There is a pretty standard hit to fatality/injury ratio of tank crews. There were almost always survivors unless the enemy infantry were close and trying to shoot the survivors as they tried to escape. About the only tank I know that might have issues with survivors is the T72 family of tanks.

"I thought that I would be able to keep out of this but I just had to agree with the above.
The German soldier was better than everyone else.
The German officers were better than every other officer.
The German navy had far better ships (above and below the surface) than any other navy.
The German tanks were better than anyone elses.
The German aircraft were superior and their tactics was better.
The one and only thing that Germany wasn't better at was winning the war.
Something must be wrong somewhere in my text above, hmmmm,
what on earth could it be ?? Maybe the Germans didn't have the right motivation? Motivation is half the competition ?
Could it possibly be that the assumption/presumption that anything and everything German is better than anything else is incorrect ? "

E) The German army was the best trained at the start of WWII. They did not advance so successfully by being lucky. Their invasion was expected. In a war of attrition the experience slowly is killed off and and replaced by those of less experience. The Allies learned from their mistakes and gained experience.. We produced more trained soldiers and used the tactics that worked best against the germans along with plenty of artillery and air power. The advantage the Germans held shifted. They began losing more experience than could be replaced and they didn't have an answer for the massive artillery and airpower advantage of the Allies. Once factory production was firmly established by the Allies it was a done deal. Only question would be was how long could the Germans hold on.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 05:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Calling the Sherman a flaming death trap is sensationalism too. Case in point: Lafayette Pool. He had three Shermans shot out from under him, all named "In The Mood" numbered I thru III. He had the same crew through out the war and his crew called him War Daddy. According to Sherman critics this was impossible, that he should have been dead when his first tank, an M4A1 was destroyed by friendly fire. That fact that he and his crew survived shoots holes in the claims it was a dangerous tank.



Or Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters. The great Canadian and overall Allied tank ace. He also had 3 tanks, a scout car and a jeep shot out from under him if I'm correct. And I think Pool's second tank was destroyed by the P-38. Not his first.


Quoted Text


1) The US and Britain did tank studies and found that the Panther was 1.2 times better than the Sherman, and that most tank on tank battles were won by who saw first and shot first.



From that same study you speak of, they found that the Sherman had a 8.4:1 advantage on the offensive OVER the Panther. Overall, the Sherman was 3.2 times as effective in combat than the Panther. On the defensive, the Panther had a 1.1:1 advantage over the Sherman. Here is something of interest as well: "the average distance at which a US tank kills a Panzer(late IV, V, & VI) was 893 yards(816 m). Comparatively the average distance Panzers killed US vehicles as 943 yards(862 m)."

Source for above: http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/07/28/please-dont-use-the-5-m4s-1-panther-myth/

From that same article: "A British study concluded, during the Normandy campaign, that if the allies outnumbered the Germans 2.2 to 1 then victory was practically ensured. On the flip side, the Germans needed a 1.5 to 1 numerical superiority to ensure victory."

The final piece of that article is a quote from Robert Forzcyk: "'Overall, US armor destroyed more German tanks than German tanks destroyed US tanks, by a factor of about 3:2." '

Interesting isn't it?

Now before you go and try to blow my head off saying "IT'S FROM WORLD OF TANKS! IT'S NO GOOD!" Look at who he uses as sources.
Scarred
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 07:37 AM UTC
Quote "And I think Pool's second tank was destroyed by the P-38. Not his first."

You are correct. He lost the first to a panzerfauste, the second to a P-38 and the third to a Panther where his tank flipped over and he was blown out of the turret with a severely injured leg that had to be amputated. He is credited with a Panther kill.
AUSTanker
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 07:50 AM UTC
Sneak preview VIDEO for the book is here- great vintage and new tank photos!!


http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Mark-DeJohn/e/B01DTSCSEK/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1
Scarred
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 08:37 AM UTC
Is this spamming?
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 08:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sneak preview VIDEO for the book is here- great vintage and new tank photos!!
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Mark-DeJohn/e/B01DTSCSEK/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1




MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 10:07 AM UTC
I will admit, that "preview" is laughable. Stayed for the pictures and ignored the words. Wasn't that picture at 2:31 of the German tanker painting kill markings on his barrel taken on the Eastern Front? I also see many pictures of M3 Lee's.... A lot of pictures but not a whole lot of substance overall. And honestly, yes, there were many rookie tankers going into France but there are also many veterans of previous battles and operational theaters present.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 10:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sneak preview VIDEO for the book is here- great vintage and new tank photos!!


http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Mark-DeJohn/e/B01DTSCSEK/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1



Erm, why are there so many pictures of M3 Lee in a preview for a book about the Sherman?
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 10:30 AM UTC
And actually, that picture I referenced to, this one:

(only in pretty colorization) is of a Sturer Emil... On the Eastern Front... Whoever put this little preview together didn't do well enough amount of research when gathering pictures.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 11:11 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text



Or Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters. The great Canadian and overall Allied tank ace. He also had 3 tanks, a scout car and a jeep shot out from under him if I'm correct.



What substantiates this claim. Quite a few British tankers (Dring, Harris etc) would have had many more kills between their service in NA, ITALY and NWE. As no official tallys were kept this is really just a claim. I am not belittling his efforts but there is no basis to this.

Al
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 11:27 AM UTC
I wasn't quite marketing it as a claim. I was merely branching off of what some other person had said. If you check the post that I quoted you can also apply what you said to him. Why solely pick me out? I can claim you are singling me out. For what reason? I don't know. But mine is the only post you are quoting so must be the case.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 11:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wasn't quite marketing it as a claim. I was merely branching off of what some other person had said. If you check the post that I quoted you can also apply what you said to him. Why solely pick me out? I can claim you are singling me out. For what reason? I don't know. But mine is the only post you are quoting so must be the case.



Sorry but read the statement I referenced particularly the words " The great Canadian and overall Allied tank ace" this is why I asked the question. Not because of any prejudice or particular dislike of you personally. I rechecked the post you mentioned and nowhere in it does the writer claim the overall tank ace that you do hence me having no problem with it. Do you see the difference?

Al
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 12:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And actually, that picture I referenced to, this one:

(only in pretty colorization) is of a Sturer Emil... On the Eastern Front... Whoever put this little preview together didn't do well enough amount of research when gathering pictures.



Are you sure? The barrel in the pictures appears to have been camouflaged, when the 2 Emils used in combat seem to have been painted just in panzer grey.
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 12:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry but read the statement I referenced particularly the words " The great Canadian and overall Allied tank ace" this is why I asked the question. Not because of any prejudice or particular dislike of you personally. I rechecked the post you mentioned and nowhere in it does the writer claim the overall tank ace that you do hence me having no problem with it. Do you see the difference?

Al



Yes, I mostly used the last sentences sarcastically. But from what I've read quickly before posting that up mentions him as the Western Allies ace of aces.


Quoted Text


Are you sure? The barrel in the pictures appears to have been camouflaged, when the 2 Emils used in combat seem to have been painted just in panzer grey.



OK well here is a colorized picture:


Now to my untrained eye, after studying some pictures, the muzzle break looks a bit different than those on 8.8cm gun barrels and the barrel looks quite a bit chunkier than the 8.8cm barrel and more like a 12.8cm which the Emils used. Here is another picture of a Sturer Emil that has a very similar set of kill rings to the above picture:


And two more:



I'm no where near an expert on German self propelled guns so if I'm proven wrong then I'm wrong.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 02:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

re: The Original Post

It was rather in poor taste. I'm not wishing ill on the author simply because I'm sure it's a book a lot of effort went into, but at the same time it's really sounding like Belton Cooper for 84 bucks. Or Belton Cooper+one of those images of war books.

The various faults and debates about the Sherman have all been done a few times over. If there was something new and shocking (the 75 MM gun lobby is actually run by pro-Nazi reptile men!) I imagine it might be worth the price of admission. But it's hard to think of what else there is that needs to be discovered, and it sounds like it might be less of a "this is a book I wrote after researching and coming to a conclusion" and more "The Sherman should have had a 105 MM AT cannon and here's research I made to support that"

Re: Sherman weapons

Any military decision is a series of compromises, made on a series of assumptions. Rarely if ever do they turn out half as good as we'd planned (even "success" is often only part of the original intent working as intended).

For the 75 MM on the Sherman to be a "scandal" I feel two conditions must be met:

1. Was there a perceived need to up-gun the Sherman prior to Normandy that was ignored?

2. Did the 75 MM gun lead to excess casualties?


The first is easiest to address. Frankly there was not. US tanks with 75 MMs had done just fine against the range of German armor prior to hitting Panthers in Normandy. Even when the Ordinance branch made bigger guns, and produced the M4A1 76, there were no takers from the Army Ground Forces.

This should be taken as a strong sign that there was no perceived need or organizational pull for a Sherman with anything but a 75 MM. Indeed, even after the choice was made to have 76 MM armed Shermans become the standard tank for the US Army, parts of the US Amy the British and USMC fought hard to keep 75 MM Sherman production going because it was quite effective for most tank missions.

So in that regard it's hard to imagine better armed Shermans prior to D-Day without some counter-historical behaviors. There just wasn't any support for it at the end user or higher echelon level.

As to the second question, this is a bit fuzzier. Would better armed Shermans have resulted in less losses?

I will contend they would not. For the following two reasons:

A. The 75 MM was only insufficient against heavy German armor. This was a battlefield rarity in the West. The primary killer of Shermans was AT guns (which a larger more AT oriented gun would have been worse at killing) and infantry AT weapons. The primary target of Shermans was infantry in buildings and fortifications. Clearly for most targets, and most battles, the 75 MM was enough of a gun to get by.

B. The decisive element of tank vs tank is who shoots first. While the 75 MM was not going to kill Tigers and Panthers from the front, it was employed very successfully at Arracourt, St Vith etc. The key factor in this exchange is that a stationary tank in the defensive will virtually always spot the tank on the offensive first.

So in that regard if Shermans had 90 MM cannons they'd still likely take heavy losses on the offensive because the German tankers would get to shoot first. This is virtually certainly true because when the Germans were on the offensive even with thicker armor and bigger guns, they too took heavy losses in exchange for fairly modest results.

So coming off of point 2: the 75 MM was excellent against the biggest threats to the Sherman, and against the primary targets it had on the battlefield. The gun was not as relevant to American losses as being on the offensive was.





I believe that I stated earlier that the Sherman had a much better AP (Anti-Personnel, i.e Cannister) Round and HE (High Explosive) Round, used by the 75mm, than the 76mm. I also stated that The 76mm Gun used a superior AT (Anti-Tank) Round, as opposed to the 75's. Once the HVAP (Hyper-Velocity, Armor Piercing) Round became available, albeit not until late 1944, US Tankers had a better CHANCE of scoring a kill against heavier German Armor.

However, (Here I go AGAIN!) once US Tankers learned to lob a "Willy-Pete" (White Phosphorous) Round into a German Tank's "shot-traps", they could incapacitate it by eventually forcing the Crew to either abandon their vehicle, or burn to death. In the mean time, having distracted the German Tank Crew, US Tanks could, to quote Patton: "Surround the Bastards, and then PILE ON!" in order to pump all kinds of ordnance into the now crippled German Tank.

Had we been smart enough to figure out these kinds of tactics, we might have been able to properly TRAIN our Tankers while they were still Stateside. THAT might have saved more lives. Again, this is just more "what if, what if, what if". The same goes for "a better-armored Sherman".

Take into consideration that at the time of it's inception, (early 1941) the Sherman was projected to have more than adequate Armor as compared to it's contemporaries. YET AGAIN, remember that the Sherman was designed to fight against the likes of German Pz.Is, IIs, and early models of the Pz.IIIs & Pz.IVs, all of which we know were somewhat inferior when pitted against Shermans by the time of the last El Alamein donnybrook. So, now we have complacency setting in within the various US Military Procurement & Ordnance Departments, Armor Boards, Committees, "Kaffe-Klatches", ad nauseam...

In the meantime, the Germans were not sitting on their hands, (like we were) as they needed to develop armor that could counter the Soviet T-34/76 threat- Enter Panthers and Tigers. US Intelligence was already aware of the development of these new German "Super-Tanks", but nothing was done about it. We all know the rest of the story. By 1942, Ordnance was working on quite a few different concepts and designs that could have, and maybe should have, replaced the M4 Medium-series.

"Nooo, the M4s are GOOD ENOUGH" the "Powers-That-Be" proclaimed, "Why stop production NOW?"

And thus, accelerated development of the T26/M26 was curtailed, but development of the Pershing was not halted altogether. Would the M26 have dramatically changed things in Europe had we had this Tank by late 1943? That's another argument again.

I just might BUY this book that we've been hemming and hawing over, just to see what this author has to say. I will again state my opinion of the Sherman- It had it's faults, but in all, the US M4 Medium-series Tanks DELIVERED...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 02:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Has anyone gone and read the website teh Chieftain's hatch or listen to the Operation Think Tank on You Tube...almost everything said here is reported to be myth and backed up with US Army Documents.

1) The US and Britain did tank studies and found that the Panther was 1.2 times better than the Sherman, and that most tank on tank battles were won by who saw first and shot first.

2) The 76mm with HVAP was tested versus the 17pdr, and the US didn't adopt the 17pdr because it was an okay gun, the 76mm was just as good, and its another piece of ammo in the logistical nightmare.

3) The wet stowage bins were dis-used post war, and that the biggest success was the movement of ammo from sponsons to the floor.

4) the 5 to 1 ratio for Sherman versus Panther, was based on the smallest US Army tactical unit was a Platoon of five tanks.

5) The 76mm was always planned to be fitted into the M4 and they had it ready in 1942, but was rejected because the fightablity for the M1 Gun in the early round Sherman turret.




RIGHT! The T23 Turret wound up being adapted and used in order for the 76mm Gun to fit the M4-series...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, April 11, 2016 - 02:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

snipped, see earlier post if interested



Hey Robin

I think you totally missed my point, it was to try and get some of the generalisations made here backed up by sources that could be read and evaluated (by both sides of the argument).

We freely critise the WOT world for things like this thread but so many statements in here are just as guilty of loose history. Hearsay, repeating commentary from National Geographic war videos and personal bias are not balanced views ....

Really interesting that the guy who stirred all this up is the author of the "new" book and his only ongoing contribution is to again promote said book. Almost everything after the initial announcement has been over-reaction with the usual "mines bigger, better and badder" than yours dosed with more than a touch of national jingoism ....



Point taken :-) Facts are always better than no facts or simple hearsay but when there are a number of comments about the rational or irrational fear of JaBo's then there probably was a widespread fear of JaBo's (even if that fear was based on hearsay and fantasy ...)
/ Robin[/quote]

May I point out that the FEAR of JABOS is just as, if not more effective on morale as an actual attack? Just as US/Allied Ground Troops during WWII experienced "Tiger-phobia", and mis-identified nearly EVERY German Tank that they encountered, as a "Tiger"...

Sensationalism goes a long way. Nevertheless, if I were a German Tanker serving in Northwestern Europe, I'd have been terrified of being turned into hamburger by US/Allied Air, too... Same goes for our Artillery...