Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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New Book- The Sherman Tank Scandal of WWII
mkenny
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 08:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for posting those info links a few posts further back Nick, I'd seen most but enjoyed watching the Zaloga/Doyle discussion.

However ..... this has to be done.






That Tiger is towing one that has been knocked out.


AUSTanker
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 09:08 PM UTC
Funny thing, this- didn't we Yank colonists quite decisively settle the matter of arbitrary British searches back in 1783- you know- that "Yankee Doodle" thing? It was in all the papers, on both sides of the "Pond."

The book has something like 300-plus sources and 1300-plus footnotes. You're more than welcome to peruse them when it's out.

For now, can't let the cat out of the bag, as we colonists say...

mkenny
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 09:43 PM UTC


Quoted Text

Funny thing, this- didn't we Yank colonists quite decisively settle the matter of arbitrary British searches back in 1783- you know- that "Yankee Doodle" thing? It was in all the papers, on both sides of the "Pond."

The book has something like 300-plus sources and 1300-plus footnotes. You're more than welcome to peruse them when it's out.

For now, can't let the cat out of the bag, as we colonists say...




I am Irish so you your barbs are wasted on me.
I simply asked what were the sources you used and it seems this s a problem for you.
I just wanted to know what you were using to draw your conclusion and unless you have found a room full of previously unknown period documentation I do not understand your reticence. This path is well worn by many and I am confident you bring nothing new in the way of fact.
Your bombast echoes that of Gary L. Simpson and you seem to have a lot in common.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 09:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Funny thing, this- didn't we Yank colonists quite decisively settle the matter of arbitrary British searches back in 1783- you know- that "Yankee Doodle" thing? It was in all the papers, on both sides of the "Pond."

The book has something like 300-plus sources and 1300-plus footnotes. You're more than welcome to peruse them when it's out.

For now, can't let the cat out of the bag, as we colonists say...




Good we could get some American proto-fascist nationalism in, this thread is rocking'n'rolling now!
AUSTanker
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 10:08 PM UTC

You said it! You Limeys need to speak up and weigh in, then- enough of this "Reserved Englishman" stuff- your COMET was a damn good tank, and your FIREFLY Sherman was no slouch either- the shotgun marriage of a British gun and American body.
AUSTanker
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 10:19 PM UTC

Hey my trans-Atlantic friend, stand down- I'm both part Irish and English, so I feel your pain. My wisecracks were made in fun, which we Irish know a little about!

I've lived, worked, and studied in England, and interned with your Ministry of Defense, as well as served beside British soldiers in Bosnia, so nothing against them or our Mother Country.

I'm sure you can appreciate that since the book is not out yet, I can't post the intimate details of @300 or so sources used. And no historic topic is "finished" or "final," unless we are living in North Korea. If some can pass judgement on a 500-page book as yet unreleased, without reading it, we hope to see them on a reality show, demonstrating mind-reading skills!

Since I'm being slandered by both sides of the myth, I must be doing something right! Best, Christian

PS I'm not familiar with Mr. Simpson, nor have I communicated with him.

[/quote]

I am Irish so you your barbs are wasted on me.
I simply asked what were the sources you used and it seems this s a problem for you.
I just wanted to know what you were using to draw your conclusion and unless you have found a room full of previously unknown period documentation I do not understand your reticence. This path is well worn by many and I am confident you bring nothing new in the way of fact.
Your bombast echoes that of Gary L. Simpson and you seem to have a lot in common.
[/quote]
mkenny
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 10:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text




PS I'm not familiar with Mr. Simpson, nor have I communicated with him.




You Ouija Board broken?
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Thursday, April 21, 2016 - 11:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

PS- Yes, I'm the author! Best, Christian M. DeJohn



Wait.... YOU'RE the author? Gee I never would've known... Thanks for clearing that up.


Quoted Text

The fact that the 76 MM armed M4A1s all remained in depot during the assault on France, that despite having other weapons available, the US army went into France knowing it was going to encounter Tigers (despite the fact they largely did not), and despite that fact it went in equipped with Shermans with 75 MM guns, M10s with 3 inches, and the lamentable towed pieces of similar caliber (plus the 57 mm).



Like I said before, the 3in gun was similar to the 76mm. They are of very similar caliber: 3 inches = 76.2mm. Some rounds had similar penetrating power. I don't think the 3 in M7 can be counted as a poor gun that is subpar to the 76mm M1A1/A1C/A2.
AUSTanker
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 01:43 AM UTC
Mikey me boy, keep in mind- we're not all as sharp as you- I only felt the need to clarify my authorship because even after posting "here's a link to MY upcoming new book," etc., a few good souls (Bless 'em All!) seem to think I'm engaged in a sinister conspiracy..."Hey, wait a minute..what's YOUR interest in seeing this book do well?"

To digress a bit, to the topic of armor modeling...the book will have some great new color shots of 1/35 armor, and a ton of color shots of rare tanks from US and Euro museums and tanker gear.

Best,

Belton Cooper Jr...er, Christian M. DeJohn



Quoted Text


Quoted Text

PS- Yes, I'm the author! Best, Christian M. DeJohn



Wait.... YOU'RE the author? Gee I never would've known... Thanks for clearing that up.


Quoted Text

The fact that the 76 MM armed M4A1s all remained in depot during the assault on France, that despite having other weapons available, the US army went into France knowing it was going to encounter Tigers (despite the fact they largely did not), and despite that fact it went in equipped with Shermans with 75 MM guns, M10s with 3 inches, and the lamentable towed pieces of similar caliber (plus the 57 mm).



Like I said before, the 3in gun was similar to the 76mm. They are of very similar caliber: 3 inches = 76.2mm. Some rounds had similar penetrating power. I don't think the 3 in M7 can be counted as a poor gun that is subpar to the 76mm M1A1/A1C/A2.

DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks for posting those info links a few posts further back Nick, I'd seen most but enjoyed watching the Zaloga/Doyle discussion.

However ..... this has to be done.






That Tiger is towing one that has been knocked out.





I am very well aware of that, shows excellent unit discipline under fire as well as impressing the cat.
mkenny
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 03:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I am very well aware of that, shows excellent unit discipline under fire as well as impressing the cat.



They are not under fire.
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 03:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



I am very well aware of that, shows excellent unit discipline under fire as well as impressing the cat.



They are not under fire.



Um ..... they are in a combat zone, the other Tiger has been "knocked out" .... they aren't in Paris, near enough for the cat.
DriftwoodDan
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 03:36 AM UTC
Gary Simpson has been dead for a number of years and will not be able to defend himself.
mkenny
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 04:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text



they are in a combat zone, the other Tiger has been "knocked out" .... they aren't in Paris, near enough for the cat.



Photo was taken after 4th CLY withdrew back to the Amaye area some 4-5km to the west. Pz Lehr were between SS 101 and the nearest Allied forces.
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 04:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



they are in a combat zone, the other Tiger has been "knocked out" .... they aren't in Paris, near enough for the cat.



Photo was taken after 4th CLY withdrew back to the Amaye area some 4-5km to the west. Pz Lehr were between SS 101 and the nearest Allied forces.



Calm down I'm just having a bit of fun, god knows this thread needs it. And yes, I do know exactly where this photo was taken, I has books

Rubicon
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 05:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Quoted Text

Funny thing, this- didn't we Yank colonists quite decisively settle the matter of arbitrary British searches back in 1783- you know- that "Yankee Doodle" thing? It was in all the papers, on both sides of the "Pond."

The book has something like 300-plus sources and 1300-plus footnotes. You're more than welcome to peruse them when it's out.

For now, can't let the cat out of the bag, as we colonists say...




I am Irish so you your barbs are wasted on me.
I simply asked what were the sources you used and it seems this s a problem for you.
I just wanted to know what you were using to draw your conclusion and unless you have found a room full of previously unknown period documentation I do not understand your reticence. This path is well worn by many and I am confident you bring nothing new in the way of fact.
Your bombast echoes that of Gary L. Simpson and you seem to have a lot in common.



The current theory over on tanknet is that this book is his, rejected as ridiculous masters thesis, with lots of color pictures.
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 05:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The current theory over on tanknet is that this book is his, rejected as ridiculous masters thesis, with lots of color pictures.



Well pictures are always good and would suit many on this thread, words bad, pics good.

The title also seems to draw a lot from David Fletchers "Great Tank Scandal , British Tanks ..."
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 06:23 AM UTC
Maybe we should read page 340 of Col. Robert Allen's book "Lucky Forward". Gen Eisenhower talked about the tankers coming home and telling relatives how the Sherman stood up to the Panthers and Tigers. Eisenhower want the public relations officers to create good stories to combat the experiences of the tankers.
I have just one question to all. What type would you want to be in. A Panther or Tiger or a Sherman?
saurkrautwerfer
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 06:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Like I said before, the 3in gun was similar to the 76mm. They are of very similar caliber: 3 inches = 76.2mm. Some rounds had similar penetrating power. I don't think the 3 in M7 can be counted as a poor gun that is subpar to the 76mm M1A1/A1C/A2.



Less so the "gun" and more the "3 Inch Gun M5" towed system. When mounted on the M10 it was a pretty okay system. The towed gun however was too big and heavy to be a good infantry weapon. Then pair it with the Tank Destroyer doctrine for towed weapons, and you've got a weapons system that performed very poorly.

As far as my comments to the Chieftain, perhaps I misunderstood his intent, however the net influence of the Tiger on AGF appears to be limited.
casailor
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 08:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe we should read page 340 of Col. Robert Allen's book "Lucky Forward". Gen Eisenhower talked about the tankers coming home and telling relatives how the Sherman stood up to the Panthers and Tigers. Eisenhower want the public relations officers to create good stories to combat the experiences of the tankers.
I have just one question to all. What type would you want to be in. A Panther or Tiger or a Sherman?

It depends, on defense, a Panther. On offense a Sherman. At least I could count on it keeping running from day to day.
GazzaS
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2016 - 09:32 AM UTC
In forest and dense terrain, being in a tank would suck in any tank. Imagine trying to spot an anti tank gun in a camoflaged position. Here you are, 12-foot tall and moving hoping that the artillery prep did a good job...while straining your eyes waiting for your tank to brew up. You might want your tank to be able to survive that first hit. Or better yet, be in the second and third row...
....the Russians lost 800 tanks in Berlin, I read somewhere...

In open terrain that long barrel and high muzzle velocity coupled with superior optics would make a huge difference.

Saying this is better or that is better really depends on context in which they are used. Even the little bitty Hetzer was known to knock out JS-2's.

Calling anything that has the power to reach out and kill you "garbage" is just silly.

Gaz

Byrden
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Posted: Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Knowing just how dishonest the Nazis could be, I’m not even sure if I trust that 30 [Tigers] got [to Africa]




Well, let's take an example. The German Army (whom you seem to confuse with the NSDAP) reports 20 Tigers sent to the 501 battalion in Africa.

The researchers at TIIF.DE have counted the number of Tigers in this battalion, in Africa, and the total that they have counted so far is : twenty.

Those researchers counted the tanks by examining literally hundreds of photographs, cross-checking them with each other, gradually building a list over a period of years.

They put time and effort into this. They based their conclusions on traceable evidence. They didn't post their opinions without marking them as opinions. They didn't post assumptions as if they were facts.

I think that kind of procedural rigor would greatly improve your website.

David

AUSTanker
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 12:55 AM UTC
FWD: "SGT Christian DeJohn and the Cost of Standing up for Free Speech-"

https://www.thefire.org/sergeant-christian-dejohn-and-the-cost-of-standing-up-for-free-speech/
urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 01:09 AM UTC
AUSTanker
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 01:11 AM UTC

DeJohn VS. Temple Decision: Army Veteran's Win A Victory for Campus Free Speech:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2058593/posts