Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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M4E13 Panther F
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 03:30 AM UTC

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I'm loving this too, was planning on doing a similar project by the British on their obselete Sherman. It would have a Centurion style suspension and Metoer engine added to the M4A4 chassis.



The suspension is very do able since it's bogie system like the VVSS and HVSS...again the Engine would be the big problem. But the Centurion Suspension could be done minimum with an adapter plate.



Have you thought of a smaller road wheel? I'm sure something could be made for a conversion.

I agree, but did not look closer. Another factor is the length of the hull. The Centurions have a long hull, would three boogies fit on the M4A4 hull?

Now I did check out one suspension on the M4, the Porche boogies from the Elefant. Those would fit the standard M4 hull.

But, I went Panther on the model.



I noticed that too [Cent is 5.3 foot longer than the M4A4]. My idea was to use only 2 bogies, though I am, not sure that many could hold the bigger engine and extra armour though.



Have you considered a smaller road wheel?
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 03:42 AM UTC

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Premise:

The atom bomb test failed, and Stalinist traitors inside the Manhattan Project informed Stalin he had nothing to worry about. He decided to attack into western Germany on March 1st, 1947. Goal, destruction of the Western Army, and then the conquest of western Europe. The bulk of the Stalinist armored forces will be the T-34 85, supported by the IS series heavy tanks, with the new T-44 tanks available in limited numbers.

Western Army forces are the US M4 75mm, 76mm and 105mm tanks. The M26 and M26E4 Pershing series, and the new British Centurion

Challenge:

What could be done to turn an early M4 series tank into a T34 killing machine before spring 1947?

The Western Army has 18 months, all the spare resources in the US, all the resources of the Ruhr industrial complex, access to all the guns, munitions and spare parts left over from the US and German war efforts.



We, and that includes me, are getting a bit off topic here. Let's stick to the original idea, upgrading the M4 series. Expanding to the late hull M4 is fine with me, British, French, US, heck, even a Soviet M4A2 morphed into a "?"!

Thank you.
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 04:10 AM UTC

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I noticed that too [Cent is 5.3 foot longer than the M4A4]. My idea was to use only 2 bogies, though I am, not sure that many could hold the bigger engine and extra armour though.



Have you considered a smaller road wheel?[/quote]

After thinking it over a little I think 2 boogies would work. A stronger spring is all that is needed, and the Centurion boogies are easier to re-spring than the M4!
saurkrautwerfer
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 04:45 AM UTC
Wandering off topic because fun:

The biggest reason there's so few Pershings is the war ended. Simple as that. You look at how many made it to Europe in a short window and it stands to reason that had the war continued, or the Soviets been more than just unfriendly, you'd have seen a lot more M26s, and whatever the M46 would have been (I think if it'd come along faster, it'd have just been the M26A2 or whatever).

More reasonably in the short term, the most common Shermans would have been M4A3E8s, either factory made, or depot level refits.

However as to the project being shown, given the sort of odd ball stuff that did get trialed, it's really not too out there. In facing the Soviet hoards the answer to "should we get more tanks?" would always be "yes"

So given two things, a surplus of German factories and parts, and a whole mess of earlier model Shermans, it's not unreasonable to think that we'd see some oddball combos. I'd contend they'd be more likely to be not as US Army vehicles, but instead to fit out recently liberated Allied countries (so like, the Dutch just as a random example), but could still certainly show up in lower priority units (so like M26s and M4A3E8s in Armor divisions, with separate tank battalions scooping up frakentanks or improvised American-German assault tanks).

Dunno. It's a cool concept, and a fun sort of alternate history to look into. It almost as a weird sort of Twilight 2000 (or perhaps, 1947) vibe to it, and I like that lots.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 06:18 AM UTC

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The M26 failed the Armored Board Test, and Army Ground Forces acted upon the Armored Board recommendation. The GAF Engine was not what was needed and that was why they started the program that eventually became the M46, because the GAF Engine was too under powered and to improve the coolant system of the M26. It was Ordnance that pushed the deployment of the T26E3.

http://worldoftanks.com/en/news/pc-browser/21/The_Chieftains_Hatch_Pershing_1/

That's the first of a series of articles on the Pershing, and stats that the mechanical reliability is a major reason for its rejection...and he uses source documents.



Nevertheless, despite the failure of the M26 in the Armor Board's tests, 2,000 of them were built and many of these were deployed in Korea. Perhaps, as I mentioned earlier, IF the M26 had been given TOP PRIORITY, isn't it logical that TOP PRIORITY might have also been given to ironing out the M26's failings? Yes, the Ford GAF Engine was under-powered- The US possessed THE largest industrial-base in the world, especially in the field of producing engines of ALL types for the various Armed Services, "Lend-Lease" notwithstanding. Isn't it just a wee bit possible that this "industrial might" could have come up with a worthy replacement for the Ford GAF..? Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlins (under license) not only for the USAAF's P-51Bs, Cs, Ds and P-40Fs, but also for the RAF, and also de-rated (less Supercharger), marine-application Merlins for the US NAVY, using 3 each of them in our PT Boats. A Merlin wasn't that big in it's outside dimensions, so just for "$#!+$ & Giggles", couldn't a Merlin have been fitted into some kind of an armored application..? As it was, ALL of the US Heavy Tanks that I had mentioned previously, (T29, T30, et al) used much larger engines than the Ford GAF, with correspondingly higher horse-power ratings.

Another reason the M26 wasn't developed to it's full potential was that the various powers-that-be had asked major "armor-domo" General Patton whether the M26 should be manufactured in lieu of existing M4-types. Patton answered in the negative, mainly because he was afraid that a switch in production priorities would have deprived his Armored Forces of Shermans which he never thought he had enough of. Also, Patton was in the "dog house" again at the time over some faux pas that he had recently committed, (at some British Ladies' Organization function, I believe), and he was desperately afraid of being sent home for good if he ruffled anyone else' feathers... Ike had warned Patton "for the last time"...

There are viable arguments in favor of a switch-over from Sherman production to a superior weapons system, as well as against, and these arguments have raged ever since the M4-series Medium first came up against certain "superior" German Tanks, i.e, Tigers I & II, and Panthers.

It's been well established by numerous authorities on the subject that these "superior" German Tanks were pretty unreliable, mechanically speaking- Yes, they had superior armament and armor; no one is disputing that. Check the figures of German armored combat losses against the figures of these "vaunted" Tigers and Panther that suffered mechanical failures (Engines, Transmissions, Final Drives and Suspension Components) and also Engine Compartment FIRES. If US AFVs had suffered as many breakdowns, and systems failures, comparatively speaking of course, it would have been cause for a goodly number of official congressional inquiries, and BY GOD, HEADS WOULD HAVE ROLLED...
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 06:23 AM UTC

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Wandering off topic because fun:

The biggest reason there's so few Pershings is the war ended. Simple as that. You look at how many made it to Europe in a short window and it stands to reason that had the war continued, or the Soviets been more than just unfriendly, you'd have seen a lot more M26s, and whatever the M46 would have been (I think if it'd come along faster, it'd have just been the M26A2 or whatever).

More reasonably in the short term, the most common Shermans would have been M4A3E8s, either factory made, or depot level refits.

However as to the project being shown, given the sort of odd ball stuff that did get trialed, it's really not too out there. In facing the Soviet hoards the answer to "should we get more tanks?" would always be "yes"

So given two things, a surplus of German factories and parts, and a whole mess of earlier model Shermans, it's not unreasonable to think that we'd see some oddball combos. I'd contend they'd be more likely to be not as US Army vehicles, but instead to fit out recently liberated Allied countries (so like, the Dutch just as a random example), but could still certainly show up in lower priority units (so like M26s and M4A3E8s in Armor divisions, with separate tank battalions scooping up frakentanks or improvised American-German assault tanks).

Dunno. It's a cool concept, and a fun sort of alternate history to look into. It almost as a weird sort of Twilight 2000 (or perhaps, 1947) vibe to it, and I like that lots.



See my following post about my guess on M4A3 numbers. My final thoughts on the M26 are, there just would not be enough of them!
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 06:31 AM UTC
Given the political climate in 1945 I doubt any attempts will be made to restart German tank production.

Thoughts for the late hull M4's:

We cannot use the 88mm in the turret of the M4 series, the gun is too large.

The US 76mm can take out a T-34. The problem is, the T-34 can take out an M4 at a greater range. Re-arming the T-23 turreted M4A3's with the US 90mm would push the combat range out to a greater distance. Up-armoring to the level of the M4A3E2 could give them an edge over the T-34.

My calculations (guesses) are 800 M4 105, 2,500 M4A1 76mm, 1,000 M4A3 75mm, 3,400 M4A3 76mm and 1,500 M4A3 105mm tanks will be available. About half are HVSS. Given the known problems with the M26, to re-turret the M4 with the M26 turret is a reasonable idea. Let's say that 1,000 turrets will be made available. These can be used to re-turret the 75mm M4A3's. Because the welded hull can be up-armored easier let's take the M4A1 76mm turrets and put them on the 105mm M4 and M4A3 hulls, and upgrade all M4 and M4A3's to M4A3E2 armor and HVSS. Using mass production techniques I think enought 90mm guns could be made to re-arm 5,000 76mm tanks before March 1947.

That will give us 1,000 M26 turreted M4A3E8(E2)'s, 4,900 90mm M4A3E8(E2)'s, 100 90mm M4E8(E2)'s, 700 M4E8(E2)'s and 200 76mm M4A1's.

The 2,300 M4A1 hulls with no turrets could be fitted with the old 75mm and 105mm turrets and used for training and fire support. Or, the hulls can be used for special purpose tanks, such as the JagdShermans.

Mind you I did a lot of guessing, and fectoring to get my numbers, but in all we have some 6,000 M4A3 up gunned tanks. I'd be willing to bet that the Stalinists have that many IS series heavy tanks, and somewhers around 30,000 T-34 and T-44 tanks.
DG0542
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 08:17 AM UTC
Patton had nothing to do with his opinion on the M26, Ordnance generally ignored him. Reading Cooper I see...The M26 did have its bugs worked out its called the M46, and in Korea after the T-34 threat died down they with drew the M26 as unsuited and replaced them with M46 and M4A3s which had better power tow eight raito. When most of the Pershing decisions were being made Patton was in exile. Also looking at the timeline Cooper's stuff doesn't fit. They only got permission for production in 01/1944. Mind you this was a whole new vehicle so they needed new tooling at every vendor and to retrain all the fabricators that were working on it. They only had the first twenty ready for Zebra Mission one year later. No one wanted M26, engineers couldn't supported, Armor thought they couldn't fight it well, and logistics didn't want to reduce tank shipments...
mmeier
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 06:39 PM UTC
Well, the brits already have a tank version of the Merlin and use it. The Meteor (Cromwell, Comet, Centurion) with it's 600HP
DG0542
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 09:11 PM UTC
A Meteor in a Sherman would be interesting, especially since the British Tanks had rear mounted final drives and the Americans had front ones. Also seeing it as a prototype for the M26
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 09:57 PM UTC
M4's had a short lower length for the engine, but the Meteor could fit with a little massaging of the rear. To connect the engine to the front transmission all you have to do is make a flywheel plate with the proper drive shaft attachment. Actually, that would be the simple part of the conversion.

Does anyone have dimensions for the Meteor engine block?

It would be easier in the M4A4 hull.
mmeier
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 11:25 PM UTC
Not "dimensions" but this is one with persons around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot-BWz9BpTI

Oh and the Merlin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

Basically the "father", the Meteor lacked some parts so it was likely smaller.
mmeier
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 11:32 PM UTC

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A Meteor in a Sherman would be interesting, especially since the British Tanks had rear mounted final drives and the Americans had front ones. Also seeing it as a prototype for the M26



Fitting it to the M26 should be easier since it has a rear drive. But it would still leave it around 160HP short of the M46
m4sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 - 11:52 PM UTC

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A Meteor in a Sherman would be interesting, especially since the British Tanks had rear mounted final drives and the Americans had front ones. Also seeing it as a prototype for the M26



Fitting it to the M26 should be easier since it has a rear drive. But it would still leave it around 160HP short of the M46



The Meteor would not work on the M26, it is too large.
DG0542
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 12:45 AM UTC
It's not always HP heavy machines its also torque...so if the Meteor is better than the GAF...who knows...do we have dimensions of the Meteor versus the GAA and the GAF?
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 02:16 AM UTC

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It's not always HP heavy machines its also torque...so if the Meteor is better than the GAF...who knows...do we have dimensions of the Meteor versus the GAA and the GAF?



The Meteor does have more power than the GAA. I think it would make a good replacement for the A2 and A4 engines. I'm still looking for dimensions.
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 09:04 AM UTC
While waiting for some stuff for the 2nd M4E13 build I started laying out a JagdSherman I'm calling a M4A1E15. Plans are to make a new glacis plate from .080, 2mm, plastic sheet glued on the kit glacis that will tie into the M4A1 nose. Still thinking about the suspension at this stage. I might try and get a track made in 3D print for spaced out VVSS that I can cast up. Once I get that figured out I can decide on if I need a new hull.

The tank will use the Jagdpanzer IV hull parts, but will be armed with the US 90mm and have the usual Sherman parts and accessories. More to come as I have time. Long shifts again on the real job.


M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 05:38 PM UTC

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While waiting for some stuff for the 2nd M4E13 build I started laying out a JagdSherman I'm calling a M4A1E15. Plans are to make a new glacis plate from .080, 2mm, plastic sheet glued on the kit glacis that will tie into the M4A1 nose. Still thinking about the suspension at this stage. I might try and get a track made in 3D print for spaced out VVSS that I can cast up. Once I get that figured out I can decide on if I need a new hull.

The tank will use the Jagdpanzer IV hull parts, but will be armed with the US 90mm and have the usual Sherman parts and accessories. More to come as I have time. Long shifts again on the real job.





Interesting stuff about the Meteor.

Re: The nose on the "JagdSherman"- Wouldn't a reinforced "Jumbo" nose match the heavy Jagdpanzer Glacis better in that it could also save you some time..?

Just sticking MY nose in, again...

"Long shifts" on your "real job"! Boy, doesn't that take me back. In my last job, (in pharmaceuticals), I would work up to 14 hours on some days, plus weekends and holidays- Time and-a-half pay for overtime on Weekdays and Saturdays, Double-time pay on Sundays, Triple-time pay on Holidays... Life was good, but could be very taxing, physically... Being single and living in the State of New York, I was nearly Taxed to death, too...
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 06:05 PM UTC

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Re: The nose on the "JagdSherman"- Wouldn't a reinforced "Jumbo" nose match the heavy Jagdpanzer Glacis better in that it could also save you some time..?

Just sticking MY nose in, again...

"Long shifts" on your "real job"! Boy, doesn't that take me back. In my last job, (in pharmaceuticals), I would work up to 14 hours on some days, plus weekends and holidays- Time and-a-half pay for overtime on Weekdays and Saturdays, Double-time pay on Sundays, Triple-time pay on Holidays... Life was good, but could be very taxing, physically... Being single and living in the State of New York, I was nearly Taxed to death, too...



I asked for suggestions, please, everyone, give us your thoughts about the M4 rebuilds. I never would have tried the Jagdpanzer IV until I saw it here!

Hadn't thought of using the E2 nose. Plans were to use the stock nose with the added armor like the other one. I'll do some testing.

Here's with the new front plate test fitted. The slope of the Jagd is close to the slope on the nose, so maybe it is a better option.

I do 3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off rotation 12 hour shifts. And, I need to get off my tush and get to work!

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 06:48 PM UTC

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Re: The nose on the "JagdSherman"- Wouldn't a reinforced "Jumbo" nose match the heavy Jagdpanzer Glacis better in that it could also save you some time..?

Just sticking MY nose in, again...

"Long shifts" on your "real job"! Boy, doesn't that take me back. In my last job, (in pharmaceuticals), I would work up to 14 hours on some days, plus weekends and holidays- Time and-a-half pay for overtime on Weekdays and Saturdays, Double-time pay on Sundays, Triple-time pay on Holidays... Life was good, but could be very taxing, physically... Being single and living in the State of New York, I was nearly Taxed to death, too...



I asked for suggestions, please, everyone, give us your thoughts about the M4 rebuilds. I never would have tried the Jagdpanzer IV until I saw it here!

Hadn't thought of using the E2 nose. Plans were to use the stock nose with the added armor like the other one. I'll do some testing.

Here's with the new front plate test fitted. The slope of the Jagd is close to the slope on the nose, so maybe it is a better option.

I do 3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off rotation 12 hour shifts. And, I need to get off my tush and get to work!




AGREE- Your new Glacis lining up with the M4 nose looks to be a more aesthetically pleasing option. I would do the same if I were to build this hypothetical vehicle. Between all the projects that I've got going at this point, I'll probably never have the time, (OR ROOM!!!), to undertake, (That reminds me- in my last two years of High School, I worked for an Undertaker, too!), a JagdSherman project!!!

3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off rotation, in 12 hour shifts is a pretty tough schedule. What is it that you do for a living?
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 07:07 PM UTC

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Re: The nose on the "JagdSherman"- Wouldn't a reinforced "Jumbo" nose match the heavy Jagdpanzer Glacis better in that it could also save you some time..?

Just sticking MY nose in, again...

"Long shifts" on your "real job"! Boy, doesn't that take me back. In my last job, (in pharmaceuticals), I would work up to 14 hours on some days, plus weekends and holidays- Time and-a-half pay for overtime on Weekdays and Saturdays, Double-time pay on Sundays, Triple-time pay on Holidays... Life was good, but could be very taxing, physically... Being single and living in the State of New York, I was nearly Taxed to death, too...



I asked for suggestions, please, everyone, give us your thoughts about the M4 rebuilds. I never would have tried the Jagdpanzer IV until I saw it here!

Hadn't thought of using the E2 nose. Plans were to use the stock nose with the added armor like the other one. I'll do some testing.

Here's with the new front plate test fitted. The slope of the Jagd is close to the slope on the nose, so maybe it is a better option.

I do 3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off rotation 12 hour shifts. And, I need to get off my tush and get to work!




AGREE- Your new Glacis lining up with the M4 nose looks to be a more aesthetically pleasing option. I would do the same if I were to build this hypothetical vehicle. Between all the projects that I've got going at this point, I'll probably never have the time, (OR ROOM!!!), to undertake, (That reminds me- in my last two years of High School, I worked for an Undertaker, too!), a JagdSherman project!!!

3 on, 3 off, 4 on, 4 off rotation, in 12 hour shifts is a pretty tough schedule. What is it that you do for a living?



If you ask the people on the floor, nothing! I am a PM tech at a silicon wafer plant. I also do a lot of repair work. Due to work flow I have free time on some days (like right now). So I sneak on here. I'm actually waiting for a machine to error out again so I can trouble shoot a wiring glitch.

I was out of the hobby for almost 10 years or so and this model is maybe the 4th model I have done anything with other than test the hulls together.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 07:18 PM UTC
Love your Sherman ideas and the What Ifs.

One technical point, if I may (and it's too late to change this), is that the Israelis, when adding the French 75 to the Sherman (which was essentially a German Panther 75) found they needed to have the gun trunions pushed forward to accommodate the recoil within the Sherman's turret ring diameter.

The M50 has an extension out the front of the turret for this exact purpose and even with the Panther F mount, I think yours would as well (if it was to be built).

As for Sherman tank hunters, Here's my what if of an Israeli Sherman SU based on 100mm weapons captured from the Egyptians in 1956 and fielded on modified Sherman hulls.


m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 07:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Love your Sherman ideas and the What Ifs.

One technical point, if I may (and it's too late to change this), is that the Israelis, when adding the French 75 to the Sherman (which was essentially a German Panther 75) found they needed to have the gun trunions pushed forward to accommodate the recoil within the Sherman's turret ring diameter.

The M50 has an extension out the front of the turret for this exact purpose and even with the Panther F mount, I think yours would as well (if it was to be built).

As for Sherman tank hunters, Here's my what if of an Israeli Sherman SU based on 100mm weapons captured from the Egyptians in 1956 and fielded on modified Sherman hulls.





I like this one. In the 1947 senario I think the Soviets would do something similar with their M4A2's, once the US stops the lend lease.

Skoda developed a short recoil 75mm for the Panther small turret. It was hard on the turret, but it is what I think solves the trunion problems.
DG0542
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 07:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


"Long shifts" on your "real job"! Boy, doesn't that take me back. In my last job, (in pharmaceuticals), I would work up to 14 hours on some days, plus weekends and holidays- Time and-a-half pay for overtime on Weekdays and Saturdays, Double-time pay on Sundays, Triple-time pay on Holidays... Life was good, but could be very taxing, physically... Being single and living in the State of New York, I was nearly Taxed to death, too...



I hear ya, long hours and under paid and living in New York.
m4sherman
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Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2016 - 11:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text


One technical point, if I may (and it's too late to change this), is that the Israelis, when adding the French 75 to the Sherman (which was essentially a German Panther 75) found they needed to have the gun trunions pushed forward to accommodate the recoil within the Sherman's turret ring diameter.

The M50 has an extension out the front of the turret for this exact purpose and even with the Panther F mount, I think yours would as well (if it was to be built).




Waiting for a part. Our warehouse is very slow today.

I've thought about this all morning. What should the turret on the next Sherman kwk 75mm look like? Chances are a prototype gun might not be the best way to go. I don't want it to look too much like the M50, and I can put an extention out and still use the F mantlet. Blocking the drivers hatch creates a death trap. There is no bow gunner, as that space is being used for 75mm rounds like on the Firefly, so the lower hull escape hatch is blocked as well.

The hull top and drivers hood could be modified and a new escape hatch put on, offset to cear the gun mantlet. A Panther drivers hatch might work.