Is Dragon's Black Label Hurting the Hobby?
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 05:56 AM UTC
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If someone attempting a serious build is so turned off by a kit that they abandon the hobby, then their interest in the hobby was superficial at best.
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It seems that Dragon's Black Label was done to get people interested, in the hobby. Had a kit from that line been your first serious build, would you pursue the hobby further? I don't think I would. Therefor, is that line of models turning people off to the hobby? Or has it been decided that it is just a money grab?
I think this about sums it up. We all started somewhere, and I seriously doubt any of us were experts on the accuracy of a certain piece of equipment when we started-- unless we served in or on it. If you are a model builder, first time or expert, and expect a scaled down replica to have every exact detail of the full size object, chances are you'll be disappointed. We have a right to expect quality and a measure of accuracy for sure, if a manufacturer doesn't provide it, we have a right to walk away from that kit but it shouldn't drive us away from the hobby. If that were the case, all the dogs I built as a kid would have done that years ago.
VR, Russ
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 06:10 AM UTC
Any expansion is good for the hobby. Black Label was one way to exploit a new market that Dragon's other lines weren't reaching.
Certainly the quality is below par, but only by today's high standards. We are ridiculously spoiled. Some rivet counters should be dealing with their mental illness and not belaboring the same points endlessly like Medieval scolastics debating the number of angels dancing on the heads of pins.
Sadly, in any rush to cash in on an expanding market quality will suffer. There are only so many top flight research and development teams out there. So Black Label got the second stringers and low budgets and tightened schedules and the end product was below expectations. Expectations that Dragon had raised so high themselves so they only have themselves to blame.
But expansion never hurts. Because others will rush in with better stuff.
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
Arkansas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 06:41 AM UTC
I'm watching the build of Dragon's T54E1. There are huge gaps, between the upper and lower turret halves. I don't think anybody coming into the hobby would be motivated by such discrepancies, especially ones who only plan on doing a "one off". For accomplished builders, these kit still put one to the test. Not all of the line, but many of the builds I have seen.
Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.
#453
Texas, United States
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 06:56 AM UTC
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Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. Best to research the lines and buy with caution. IMHO Dragon has been left in the dust by the current crop of new manufacturers!
Glaring errors and obvious mistakes sound like comments I hear all of the time about every kit maker out there. Good kits and bad kits every model maker has them. I leave accuracity to the model builder. If it looks like a tank, ship or airplane I am happy with it. I am glad that it's not missing parts, the paint job looks decent, and the decals don't have any glare. That is good model to me.
Marcus
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 10:13 AM UTC
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Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. Best to research the lines and buy with caution. IMHO Dragon has been left in the dust by the current crop of new manufacturers!
Glaring errors and obvious mistakes sound like comments I hear all of the time about every kit maker out there. Good kits and bad kits every model maker has them. I leave accuracity to the model builder. If it looks like a tank, ship or airplane I am happy with it. I am glad that it's not missing parts, the paint job looks decent, and the decals don't have any glare. That is good model to me.
Marcus
And people always seem to forget the glaring mistakes Dragon has made
in their German kits. Look at the recent build video of their brand new Jagdpanzer IVA-0. They have messed stuff up all over their lines, but people feel it most in whatever is most precious to them. Look at their Sherman's. If it wasn't for Asuka how many would still be complaining how it took Dragon two or three tries to get the M4A3 76mm right or the errors with the 105mm Sherman's not to mention the four tries at a Sherman VC.
Every company has their hits and misses. Just so happens that Black Label has been mostly misses with the freakingly horrible to the "meh, guess they just didn't care enough"
And history repeats itself as we all had same precise question and discussion about a year ago.
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
Colorado, United States
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 10:42 AM UTC
I don't think Black Plague line hurt the hobby as a whole. Rather, I see it as opportunities for new comers in the market to improve and excel in ignored genres, which Meng, Takom, RFM, and few others are doing already anyway - leaving Dragon in the dust like someone said. More competition, better for the consumers.
I agree with others that BL only hurt Dragon's reputation I think.
Happy modeling!
Warning: possible addiction may occur.
Currently on the bench: Maquette T-34/76
Georgia, United States
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:11 PM UTC
All I can really say about this is:
If you built a bunch of Lindberg kits and Life Like Hobby dinosaur models growing up because that's what the local five-and-dime carried, there is really nothing at all to complain about these days.
I for one will continue to buy the Dragon titles that appeal to me, especially if no one else wants to challenge them. I only buy them on sale or online when I can get at least 50% off. I don't think I've ever paid more than 75% of cost. I bought a Rye Field Tiger with interior to go with my 5 Dragons because Dragon didn't look to be stepping up to the plate, and I only needed one interior since I normally button up my tanks. Same for the Takom Tiger II. All my other TII's are Dragon. But button line is if they aren't going to provide a nice interior then F them. Dragon to me is a bar of excellence I don't want to go under, but love going over when I can. That is, I prefer to buy kits at least as good as Dragon when I can and there isn't a superior version. EX: I will not buy an Italeri kit unless they are the only game in town, like with their 1/35 Schnellboot. Not much fear of competition on that kit. OOB I think their SdKfz 234 series look dated and sad next to Dragons; I'd rather save my own money for a Dragon than take the Italeri for free.
Dragon set a new standard, and we got used to it as they likewise became complacent and soon lazy. Now the next crop of companies are arriving and Dragon must step up their game to become a leader again or rethink their strategies on designing and packaging to remain at least the industry standard. They are flailing a bit with some releases, as I think they are grasping the new market situation and are trying to find a focus. Pricing definitely has to be rethought since they are doing a lot of sprue recycling and dropped a lot of premium pieces; I understand prices have gone up everywhere but compared to all-new releases from the upstarts Dragon's current MSRP is too high by 20% easily in many cases, even higher. Trying to make up lost revenue somewhere, I guess. Not enough profit on bobbleheads after you pay all the licensing fees is my assumption. We are paying for weak sales of cutesy Daredevil figurines.
On the Campaign Trail:
Tank Destroyer 2020
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:35 PM UTC
And the failure of their Star Trek line. Wait, Dragon did Star Trek? Didn't sell at all.
And they lost market share in the 1/6 action figure market too. It also really looks like they lost some of their design talent in this explosion of new competitive companies.
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
Saitama-ken, Japan / 日本
Joined: February 12, 2016
KitMaker: 128 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:25 PM UTC
I only have one Black Label in the stash; the Saladin; and I bought it because 1) it was 50% off, and 2) British. I haven't bought anything else in the range because 1) the selection doesn't interest me, and 2) reviews from modellers. I doubt people would give up the hobby over a Black Label build. Though I won't buy them myself they may actually be better for beginners as they seem (I'm open to correction if I'm wrong) to have lower parts counts; less delicate moldings and no/little P.E. I personally find some of the Dragon/Bronco/Takom in my stash somewhat daunting and I've been in this hobby 40 or 50 years. If I were advising a beginner I'd direct them to Tamiya, old Italeri, or maybe Zvezda; because my own opinion is that if anything's endangering the hobby it's increasing complexity and prices. That's before we even get into crystal ball gazing about what happens when 3D printing becomes dirt-cheap, or there's no more plastic because we've exhausted the planet's oil and gas.
"I've..seen things..you people wouldn't believe."
Alabama, United States
Joined: March 09, 2015
KitMaker: 281 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 06:57 PM UTC
Only Black Label I have is the MBT 70 because it is the only 1/35 scale MBT around.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 07:03 PM UTC
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And the failure of their Star Trek line. Wait, Dragon did Star Trek? Didn't sell at all.
And they lost market share in the 1/6 action figure market too. It also really looks like they lost some of their design talent in this explosion of new competitive companies.
I'm still waiting for their 1/35 AT-AT.
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Tennessee, United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 08:17 PM UTC
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As frustrating as many of the Black Label releases are...we're still seeing subjects kitted that otherwise may not see the light of day (e.g., M6). So, IMO the Black Label releases are a win-win for everyone.
Concur. They have some subjects that I am interested in and may one day buy. I may or may not attempt to fix at least some of the inaccuracies. But if another manufacturer comes out with a better kit of XYZ, I will shun the Black label XYZ.
Personally, as I built what today are considered crap-kits, as I began to see what was wrong I started to look for ways to improve them, or I gravitated towards better offerings when available. I hope the WoT gang will have enough folks there who will be inspired to gravitate towards dedicated modeling and start demanding better kits from Dragon.
Is Dragon's Black Label Hurting the Hobby? No. I don't know of any modelers who have quit the hobby because of a Black Label kit. Quit Dragon, maybe, but not the hobby.
If they demand your loyalty, give them integrity; if they demand integrity, give them your loyalty.--Col John Boyd, USAF
“Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan.”
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 07:04 PM UTC
What is currently hurting Dragon (in germany) is their prices. Some stores in germany only order them but no longer stock them since the up front costs for rarely sold kits are too high.
Otherwise the Black Label will not hurt the hobby. They are not in the "casual buy" price range for people starting the hobby, they are not in the big chains like ToyRUs and most subjects do not appeal to "Fritz Nazitank" or "Willi WoT" either.
The only "bad" thing is that certain "small interest group" vehicles like the MBT 70 will likely not find another company doing a (maybe!) better kit. We where lucky with the M60A2 since that was "cheap to do" using M60 hulls but MBT70, M102 etc. will be "BL only" kits most likely.
OTOH not everybody cares about the fine details as long as it "looks close enough"
Free men are their own masters. If you are not - you are a slave.
United Kingdom
Joined: May 03, 2017
KitMaker: 148 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 10:01 PM UTC
I second your view on their pricing! In a modelling magazine I read, I saw a dragon befhelspanther for £60. It included 2 marking schemes, and no side skirts, and DS tracks... A little while ago I bought a tamiya panther, included parts to build a befhelspanther, 2 marking schemes, side skirts, vinyl tracks and 2 figures, all for half the price!
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: October 14, 2013
KitMaker: 318 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 10:06 PM UTC
Is the Black Label Series done??? I haven't seen any new kits planned since the release of the T54E1.
Iowa, United States
Joined: November 06, 2007
KitMaker: 585 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 11:49 PM UTC
For the money they ask, the Saladin was a total disgrace and pi**ed me off so much I've only bought one DML kit since (a Tiger I selling for half price). Nor do I see my view changing any time soon. If the BL kits sold for 25-30$$ I could understand it but when they are as, or more expensive than other companies offerings....no way There are plenty of other subjects.
My short term memory is getting really bad....and so is my short term memory.
Washington, United States
Joined: August 09, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 03:57 AM UTC
Steve, the Saladin by black Plague is one of the best (of the few available) and is respectable. It is probably Black Plagues best kit. Compare it to Tamiya's
To all_I would ask that you try a Nachimo, Lindburg, Aurora or Williams Brother kits and then compare the Black Label kit. There is a difference.
It's your money and time. If you investigate a kit ahead of time you should not be disappointed in the kit you choose to buy. No research, no complaining! If no one else makes the kit and you did YOUR research, at least you are aware of what you are getting into. There are many of the same kits on the market by different manufacturers, each has its own quirks. read the reviews, ask questions and buy wisely.
Msgt Retired USMC
M48/ M60A1/ M1A1
Semper Fi!
Iowa, United States
Joined: November 06, 2007
KitMaker: 585 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 06:55 AM UTC
The Dragon Saladin sells for $63 on Squadron.
No inner hatch detail
No main gun sleeve
Fire extinguishers unrecognizable
DS (ugh) wheels
No exhaust pipe (just an unconnected silencer)
etc etc
Takom AML90 $33 on Squadron
Tiger Models AMX10 $52 on Sprue Bros
Hobby Boss BA10 $44 on Sprue Bros
All the above are good models with lots of detail. Dragon can't even get the wire mesh screen right on the Saladin.
I only bought one because its the only one out there and I used to drive the damn things at Duxford. Now the DML piece of junk is out do you imagine anyone else will do it? THATS why I'm pi**ed and DML can go jump in the lake.
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Steve, the Saladin by black Plague is one of the best (of the few available) and is respectable. It is probably Black Plagues best kit. Compare it to Tamiya's
My short term memory is getting really bad....and so is my short term memory.
#026
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 08:50 AM UTC
I'll tell you what...if my first build was the ICM G-4 (which I am currently building) I would never build another kit again. It is a difficult, exhausting build...to say the least. I really like DML kits. I don't build modern armor so the Black Label kits don't interest me...but the more recent Dragon kits I have are a joy to build. I have been building kits for almost 50 years.
Bodeen
What a long strange trip it's been!
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 10:06 AM UTC
Back in the 80's Dragon was the only source of modern soviet armor that you could find. Tamiya's T-62 and T-72 were so tired by that time that even as inaccurate as the Dragons offerings were, we were glad to have them. And unless you had access to spy photos, classified intelligence or first hand knowledge you didn't know how bad they were. When they started to split their line, white, orange, black I lost interest in DML. I would have rather seen more accurate kits rather than a marketing ploy. That being said, those cognizant of Black Label kits have only themselves to blame if they buy them and then are disappointed. But they aren't hurting the hobby. Have you ever seen what is out there? Gundams, Super Deformed, Eggs, whatever attracts people. And if they are driven off by Black Labels than I hope they keep looking for something that interest them. Aircraft, auto, sci-fi, whatever.
Michigan, United States
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 04:21 PM UTC
The mere existence of BL kits doesn't hurt the hobby -- if that were the case, why are newcomers over the moon excited over the crappy Tamiya Panther A or M41 Bulldog or M3 Lee or "Hanomag" SdKfz 251C kits?
Or the WOT focused Italieri releases of woeful Shermans and other 1970s era kits?
The newcomers aren't very discriminating ... period.
The only way it might slightly affect us (who don't regularly buy BL kits) is the opportunity costs (of which we are unaware) that DML incurs to put out lines that don't sell. Theoretically, more emphasis on woeful BL kits may mean diverted resources from potentially other, wiser product issues. But how would we know that?
For those of us with more sophisticated tastes, sure -- we find the poor avg quality of BL kits to be disturbing. But if we're honest, we collect more kits than we churn out. If DML, Tamiya, Meng, Asuka, Takom, AFV Club closed up shop tomorrow, I'd have enough FANTASTIC kits in my stash to last the remainder of my building lifetime.
Roy Chow
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 04:54 PM UTC
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[Best to research the lines and buy with caution.
Applicable to every brand out there, except maybe Wingnut Wings.
Wingnut Wings makes nice looking kits, but they aren't exactly "easy" builds. I wouldn't recommend them to someone newish to the hobby....or even people who have been building for a while since those same people lady about how complex some 1/35 kits are like some AFV Club or the like.
SgtRam
Contributing Writer #197
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 06, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 05:13 PM UTC
I have built two Black Label kits so far, and have not had any real issues with the kits. The Conqueror and Saladin build nice. I did find the cost a little high for what you get in the box compared to some of the new releases from Takom, but I wanted to build the subjects, and was willing to pay the price.
As for Black Label hurting the hobby, I would say no. Talking to some hobby shop owners, the kits sold very well, and in some cases are still in demand. Not all modelers are looking for 100% replication of the actual vehicle, and are looking for a decent resemblance.
My opinion is that Dragon is only hurting themselves and their reputation. They have not released anything new in the last while, and other companies, like Takom, Meng, Tiger Models, are eclipsing them in newer releases and in most cases price point.
Nevada, United States
Joined: February 12, 2012
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Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 - 05:23 PM UTC
To address your question, I don't think these kits hurt the hobby, nor do I think they would turn off a new modeler. It really all depends on why a person started the hobby in the first place. I doubt a newcomer would be that into accuracy, so that is irrelevant. If the fit and ease of build are problems, I think it just means they would try another, different manufacturer. So, no, I don't think it would have an effect on someone's interest in the hobby, overall. That said, I would always steer a newbie toward a genuine Tamiya model (not a rebox, but a Tamiya original). As most of us know, they usually go together like a hot knife through butter. There is a down side to that, though, also. A new person might think ALL models build like a Tamiya, and they'd be REALLY unhappy with a model that was a difficult build after that initial Tamiya.
Curt Basner
Henderson (Las Vegas), NV
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 31, 2017 - 04:24 AM UTC
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For the money they ask, the Saladin was a total disgrace and pi**ed me off so much I've only bought one DML kit since. Nor do I see my view changing any time soon.
So if DML issued a decent kit of your dream subject, you wouldn't buy it, just out of spite?
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Now the DML piece of junk is out do you imagine anyone else will do it?
I don't think that holds now that there are more than three companies capable of releasing 1/35 tank kits. I didn't imagine one company - let alone three - would issue an IM kit of the Object 279. Academy made a mediocre M3, but that didn't stop Takom from making a better one. There are two companies making the PzH 2000, T29 heavy, Smerch MRL, Zil-131 and KrAZ-255 trucks, AMX-13, and other non-Sherman, non-Tiger subjects. The fact that another kit of the subject exists seems to have little meaning these days.
KL
