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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Is Dragon's Black Label Hurting the Hobby?
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 09:47 PM UTC
It seems that Dragon's Black Label was done to get people interested, in the hobby. Had a kit from that line been your first serious build, would you pursue the hobby further? I don't think I would. Therefor, is that line of models turning people off to the hobby? Or has it been decided that it is just a money grab?
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 10:00 PM UTC
If one of those was my 1st build,I wouldnt be concerned about accuracy,my concern would be ease of building.If it built up fairly easily,and it looked liked my subject,then I would be happy.
But really my 1st build would be a Tamiya or a similar simple build,unless the Black Label was my only choice.
But really my 1st build would be a Tamiya or a similar simple build,unless the Black Label was my only choice.
truenorth
Joined: July 27, 2017
KitMaker: 14 posts
Armorama: 10 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 10:15 PM UTC
The Black Label's primary market is WoT fans. Dedicated modellers are secondary. As frustrating as many of the Black Label releases are for the latter group, we're still seeing subjects kitted that otherwise may not see the light of day (e.g., M6). So, IMO the Black Label releases are a win-win for everyone.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 10:59 PM UTC
No.
All models offered for sale are solely, completely, and only attempts to make money, so yes.
KL
Quoted Text
Or has it been decided that it is just a money grab?
All models offered for sale are solely, completely, and only attempts to make money, so yes.
KL
Gore_X
Joined: September 15, 2015
KitMaker: 64 posts
Armorama: 62 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 11:14 PM UTC
Considering that any business is made to earn money,the Black Label has it´s own reason to exist.Sure,the kits are not what dedicated modellers really expect or want,but there are many people that just don´t care and want that specific model of a tank or whatever.Can we blame them? Not really,i guess...
Can we blame Dragon for doing this? Nah,they feed the market with stuff it wants,so i can´t really hold that against them.
Hurting the hobby is a kinda hard choice of words in my opinion,because the modellers that seek quality in a kit won´t buy those Black Labels and those who are put off by those kits wouldn´t do this hobby on the long run anyways.
Thanks to the Internet there such a mass of info regarding this hobby,so an interested beginner would learn that those kits aren´t the top of the line and there are better.Thus they learn to ignore the Black Labels and turn to better ones.
At least i think so...or like to think so.
Now,that were my two cents for the topic jar.
Can we blame Dragon for doing this? Nah,they feed the market with stuff it wants,so i can´t really hold that against them.
Hurting the hobby is a kinda hard choice of words in my opinion,because the modellers that seek quality in a kit won´t buy those Black Labels and those who are put off by those kits wouldn´t do this hobby on the long run anyways.
Thanks to the Internet there such a mass of info regarding this hobby,so an interested beginner would learn that those kits aren´t the top of the line and there are better.Thus they learn to ignore the Black Labels and turn to better ones.
At least i think so...or like to think so.
Now,that were my two cents for the topic jar.
landshark4
Joined: June 04, 2012
KitMaker: 103 posts
Armorama: 88 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 11:34 PM UTC
No, because if that was your first serious build, the minutia of some of the details won't be what turns you off. The complexity of a Dragon kit compared to a Tamiya would put you off. If it's of a particular subject only Black Label has and its your first serious build, you'll be happy to get something done that's 95% accurate or whatever criteria you use. There are no 100% accurate kits, but they are getting close along with 1:1 scale prices as a result. Black Label kits have been great for the hobby. When it comes down to it, the errors they have are acceptable to the majority of builders with the caveat it is the best injection molded kit available of that particular subject. When another company puts out reasonably priced alternative with better details, people will drift to that. Think about switching to Dragon from Tamiya back in the early 90s or Tamiya from Monogram in the mid-70s. The backlash against Dragon and absolutely bizarre levels of rage is attributable to a couple of things: 1. Serious hobbyist disappointed that a long awaited kit didn't match high expectationos because we are spoiled in this hobby right now. 2. Competitors using fake logins to bad mouth Dragon to take away business from them. The thing I wonder about, is where is all the rage directed against Tamiya? Are you going to tell me it's acceptable that they still can't mold decent tool clamps for their German subjects? Why are almost all periscopes on their Shermans molded shut? Why do they get away, without the screaming criticism, or reissuing kits at high prices? I still love Tamiya, but by the standards Dragon is held to, there should be a universal boycott of Tamiya.
Logan
Joined: September 30, 2004
KitMaker: 523 posts
Armorama: 400 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 11:37 PM UTC
Hi
The hobby, I don't think so. Their brand, quite possibly.
I cannot recall the last Dragon/DML kit I bought.
It is a shame because BL does offer up some nice subject matter, it's just a shame their execution doesn't match today's standards.
My $.02
Tom
The hobby, I don't think so. Their brand, quite possibly.
I cannot recall the last Dragon/DML kit I bought.
It is a shame because BL does offer up some nice subject matter, it's just a shame their execution doesn't match today's standards.
My $.02
Tom
Invincible
Joined: May 03, 2017
KitMaker: 148 posts
Armorama: 122 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 27, 2017 - 11:46 PM UTC
I actually FEAR picking up a DML kit after the reviews I've read.
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I actually FEAR picking up a DML kit after the reviews I've read.
Most Dragon kits are outstanding,Tigers,Panthers,Stugs,Puma 234,Mark 3's and 4's,I have build them all,and I'm no expert.Don't sell short most of their German armor.
warhog
Joined: November 26, 2003
KitMaker: 568 posts
Armorama: 398 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI actually FEAR picking up a DML kit after the reviews I've read.
Most Dragon kits are outstanding,Tigers,Panthers,Stugs,Puma 234,Mark 3's and 4's,I have build them all,and I'm no expert.Don't sell short most of their German armor.
Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. Best to research the lines and buy with caution. IMHO Dragon has been left in the dust by the current crop of new manufacturers!
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[Best to research the lines and buy with caution.
Applicable to every brand out there, except maybe Wingnut Wings.
KL
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:50 AM UTC
Frankly speaking; IF the first kit that I ever picked up and built turned me off from the hobby because of the build outcome (my "effort's outcome" combined with whatever was in that box), I would have to say that I really didn't have much interest going in at the start. It doesn't matter what kit, line, brand, or subject you started with. It was the FIRST experience, and if you are actually turned away by the FIRST experience of anything that you tried with some anticipation of it MAYBE being or becoming rewarding at some future time, you are essentially proclaiming yourself to be a self-consumed instant-gratification "I'm a born expert at this!" type. You are someone who has surreal expectations and has no evident self-awareness or thought about what it is YOU can actually do NOW or may later become able to do. Think back to your first go at sex, cooking, driving, playing chess, shooting, courting the other side, or any other game of skill that you have tried out... I doubt that your first experiences were any sort of "stellar". I KNOW that mine weren't. But maybe I'm strange... I realized back when I was but wee that almost everything that I came across and thought that I might try out wasn't likely to work out perfectly the first time 'round. I KNEW that stuff needs time and practice - that the FIRST attempt is not likely to be a winner. Models were no different for me. The THOUGHT and CONCEPT of building models of things was all-consuming. My self was aware that I KNEW NOTHING about doing that at first. First time 'round is just a first try. My first kit turned out super-horrid - despite whatever failings or qualities of the kit itself. Had I allowed myself to be talked into quitting because of a poor first go and that dismal first outcome, I wouldn't have developed the love and modest skill in our hobby that I claim for only the past 55 years or so. And of course, I wouldn't likely be lurking or posting on THIS SITE or in this thread! 
I know nada about Dragon's "black label" stuff. It could be the best thing since sliced white, or maybe utter crap. The newbie on his or her first doesn't KNOW anything about whether the kit is good, bad, or indifferent. Certainly not whether it is good, bad, or... FOR HIM or HER. It's the FIRST.
Come to think of it.... Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing were more people turned off by their first paltry go at sex! Just saying!
My 2c. Bob
I know nada about Dragon's "black label" stuff. It could be the best thing since sliced white, or maybe utter crap. The newbie on his or her first doesn't KNOW anything about whether the kit is good, bad, or indifferent. Certainly not whether it is good, bad, or... FOR HIM or HER. It's the FIRST.
Come to think of it.... Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing were more people turned off by their first paltry go at sex! Just saying!
My 2c. Bob
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:50 AM UTC
I think that part of the problem is that is that we have become spoiled. There was a time not too long ago when Dragon kits were all the rage, when they included turned metal barrels, indy link tracks, 2-3 frets of PE, brass shells, etc, etc., few complained. The market changed when a host of new competitors arrived(Meng, Takom, etc.) offering a different variety of kits than Dragon and at comparable prices. Dragon lost market share and started to cut corners(no more turned barrels, DS tracks, less PE)in order to remain competitive.
I would wager that those of us in our late 50's-60s have fewer complaints than those younger as we go back to the time when Monogram and Tamiya were just about the only game in town and the only AM were done as a cottage industry (i.e., PE from On the Mark), and kit rubberband tracks were the only alternative. As an older modeler I may complain about the prices(my first Tamiya kit cost $7.00)and I don't generally complained about the short comings of todays kits. Rather I am thankful for the sheer number and variety of kits currently available, and the pace at which new releases hit the shelves.
My $00.02 worth.
I would wager that those of us in our late 50's-60s have fewer complaints than those younger as we go back to the time when Monogram and Tamiya were just about the only game in town and the only AM were done as a cottage industry (i.e., PE from On the Mark), and kit rubberband tracks were the only alternative. As an older modeler I may complain about the prices(my first Tamiya kit cost $7.00)and I don't generally complained about the short comings of todays kits. Rather I am thankful for the sheer number and variety of kits currently available, and the pace at which new releases hit the shelves.
My $00.02 worth.
Gore_X
Joined: September 15, 2015
KitMaker: 64 posts
Armorama: 62 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 12:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI actually FEAR picking up a DML kit after the reviews I've read.
Most Dragon kits are outstanding,Tigers,Panthers,Stugs,Puma 234,Mark 3's and 4's,I have build them all,and I'm no expert.Don't sell short most of their German armor.
Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. Best to research the lines and buy with caution. IMHO Dragon has been left in the dust by the current crop of new manufacturers!
True,true....sadly their quality declines further and further and they´re getting more and more expensive.I built a few StuGs from Dragon and CyberHobby and they were quite good although the instructions...you know:the neverending story of Dragons instructions
The newer stuff,like the MBT 70 and the M103,is far from good as far is i read the reviews.And instead of doing something really new or rare,like a decent new M113 or a FV107 (which i would prefer),they release,oh WOW...the next Tiger I
That´s why i stick to Meng,Takom,sometimes Amusing Hobby or Revell (sadly Tamiyas "new" kits are mostly reboxed Italeri...)
TotemWolf
Joined: February 11, 2013
KitMaker: 294 posts
Armorama: 196 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I think that part of the problem is that is that we have become spoiled. There was a time not too long ago when Dragon kits were all the rage, when they included turned metal barrels, indy link tracks, 2-3 frets of PE, brass shells, etc, etc., few complained. The market changed when a host of new competitors arrived(Meng, Takom, etc.) offering a different variety of kits than Dragon and at comparable prices. Dragon lost market share and started to cut corners(no more turned barrels, DS tracks, less PE)in order to remain competitive.
I would wager that those of us in our late 50's-60s have fewer complaints than those younger as we go back to the time when Monogram and Tamiya were just about the only game in town and the only AM were done as a cottage industry (i.e., PE from On the Mark), and kit rubberband tracks were the only alternative. As an older modeler I may complain about the prices(my first Tamiya kit cost $7.00)and I don't generally complained about the short comings of todays kits. Rather I am thankful for the sheer number and variety of kits currently available, and the pace at which new releases hit the shelves.
My $00.02 worth.
Very well put. I am building Tamiya's A10 from the '77. It was one of the first kits I ever did. I thought it was so great then. Now, not so much so. I've used more putty and sanded more that I ever have.
But it's still a lot of fun.
truenorth
Joined: July 27, 2017
KitMaker: 14 posts
Armorama: 10 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:02 AM UTC
[/quote]
Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. [/quote]
Good point. Don't overlook their limited foray into Japanese armour: the Type 95 derivatives have been excellent, among the finest I've ever seen by any manufacturer. Excited to see them releasing a Type 97 soon.
Maybe their German stuff! But any other line they have touched have been full of glaring errors and obvious mistakes. [/quote]
Good point. Don't overlook their limited foray into Japanese armour: the Type 95 derivatives have been excellent, among the finest I've ever seen by any manufacturer. Excited to see them releasing a Type 97 soon.
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:06 AM UTC
"But it's still a lot of fun."
Isn't that what it's all about in the end?
Isn't that what it's all about in the end?
grunt136mike
Joined: November 24, 2012
KitMaker: 1,896 posts
Armorama: 1,858 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:35 AM UTC
Hi;
IMHO the only thing that is Hurting the Hobby is the Computer Game Rage that has taken over the Masses !!!!!! 
The Younger Generation would rather sit in there caves and tweteel there thumbs;--than pick up A model kit.
Economics also has to be taken into account, DML has changed there direction in order to appeal to the not so Hard Core type of builder. The Hobby is not the same as it was even Twenty Years ago, the kit's are more complex and accurate in there chemistry ! Look at how many New kit maker's we have now that we did not have even Ten years ago !!! One mite ask; Is some of the Companies making it Harder by increasing the Number of parts in there kit's also the Complexity of the part's ! The Monaker that Label's the Hobby as Toy's is not Appropriate any longer !!
CHEERS; MIKE.
IMHO the only thing that is Hurting the Hobby is the Computer Game Rage that has taken over the Masses !!!!!!
The Younger Generation would rather sit in there caves and tweteel there thumbs;--than pick up A model kit. Economics also has to be taken into account, DML has changed there direction in order to appeal to the not so Hard Core type of builder.
The Hobby is not the same as it was even Twenty Years ago, the kit's are more complex and accurate in there chemistry ! Look at how many New kit maker's we have now that we did not have even Ten years ago !!! One mite ask; Is some of the Companies making it Harder by increasing the Number of parts in there kit's also the Complexity of the part's ! The Monaker that Label's the Hobby as Toy's is not Appropriate any longer !! CHEERS; MIKE.
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 01:55 AM UTC
That´s why i stick to Meng,Takom,sometimes Amusing Hobby or Revell (sadly Tamiyas "new" kits are mostly reboxed Italeri...)[/quote]
Tamiya new tooled releases
JSU-152
Jagdtiger
Easy 8
Jagdpanzer IV
Mark IV Male
Panther
BT-7
Isherman
M 50
Somua
Finnish Concrete Stug
Gamma Goat
JS-3
Elefant
I'm probably missing some,but I'd say they released their fair share of quality new tooled kits.
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 226 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 03:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
(sadly Tamiyas "new" kits are mostly reboxed Italeri...)
Tamiya have been reboxing Italeri kits for the Japanese domestic market for the past 40 years - it is the best and easiest way for Italeri to make their stuff available in Japan.
The ONLY reason it's become so well known outside Japan is because we can now buy kits from all over the globe via the Internet so we are effectively able to buy kits that are primarily aimed at the Japanese market.
Remember, 80-90% of Tamiya's market is in Japan. The rest of the world accounts for a tiny proportion of their sales (yes, really). Tamiya releases what Japan wants, which sometimes coincides with what the rest of the world would like, but often doesn't.
In terms of the original question - Dragon's Black Label range has no impact on the hobby, other than being another way to sell plastic kits. The casual modeller (the vast majority of kit purchasers) has little interest in perfection and just wants to enjoy building kits. If it looks like what it is supposed to be then that's all they care about.
Long may that type of kit builder continue to exist because without their willingness to buy vast numbers of kits (irrespective of quality or age), the hobby WOULD wither very rapidly.
Regards,
John
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 03:53 AM UTC
I'm far of being a fan of Black Label kits, but I cannot find how would it be hurting the hobby.
As other people said, there's a wide variety of approaches to modeling.
From people wanting a fast and simple week-end built, to the well-known rivet counters.
From the guys just wanting to build the same tank they play with in GOT to those who are more than ready to scratch anything necessary to build the vehicle they want.
Black Label kits are aimed to some of those modelers, those who are not specifically "accuracy fans" or rivet counters.
Even Italeri had reboxed old kits to surf the waves of WOT.
By the way, fact is that rivet counters and accuracy fans are a minority within this market.
As other people said, there's a wide variety of approaches to modeling.
From people wanting a fast and simple week-end built, to the well-known rivet counters.
From the guys just wanting to build the same tank they play with in GOT to those who are more than ready to scratch anything necessary to build the vehicle they want.
Black Label kits are aimed to some of those modelers, those who are not specifically "accuracy fans" or rivet counters.
Even Italeri had reboxed old kits to surf the waves of WOT.
By the way, fact is that rivet counters and accuracy fans are a minority within this market.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 03:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Black Label's primary market is WoT fans. Dedicated modellers are secondary. As frustrating as many of the Black Label releases are for the latter group, we're still seeing subjects kitted that otherwise may not see the light of day (e.g., M6). So, IMO the Black Label releases are a win-win for everyone.
Black label is geared for those who don't know any better, aren't rivet counters or just want something to build. If it was geared to WoT there'd be more paper type subjects to appeal to the gaming crowd. They were also cheaper than other kits. They've gone up in price the past few years but the quality and accuracy have not. If I was a beginning model perfecting my skills I'd stick to cheaper brands but interesting subjects. So there is a niche for the Black Label line, but a experienced modeller will always look a Dragon with a jaundiced eye.
DocEvan
Joined: August 09, 2014
KitMaker: 180 posts
Armorama: 180 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 04:10 AM UTC
If someone attempting a serious build is so turned off by a kit that they abandon the hobby, then their interest in the hobby was superficial at best.
Quoted Text
It seems that Dragon's Black Label was done to get people interested, in the hobby. Had a kit from that line been your first serious build, would you pursue the hobby further? I don't think I would. Therefor, is that line of models turning people off to the hobby? Or has it been decided that it is just a money grab?
reteip9
Joined: February 20, 2017
KitMaker: 21 posts
Armorama: 21 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 05:52 AM UTC
No because when you start out the prospect of dropping ~€70 on any kit seems ludicrous when there's a €20 Italeri on the same shelf (that's how it started with me).
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 05:54 AM UTC
Perhaps it is a niche market(WoT). How much better if it was up to the industry standards? I would like to see more crossover, from this consumer group. After all, more people that are intrigued bring new techniques and money. How so if the first kit they build is BL? Parts don't line up and the detail is a little soft. Would they not simply set it aside and say "this will be a nice conversation piece"? I build, because I enjoy it and it is therapeutic. I've only recently started back, after a family tragedy. Now, I'm having to deal with the PB issue. And I highly recommend Trumpeter's Challenger 2 Enhanced Armor. You can see some photos of mine, in the "Unfinished Builds" campaign. Or you can dig a bit and find one of mine that won an award, at Florida Regionals, Orlando.
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