Gratuitous Blood or Honest Depiction of War
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 01:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
'...This diorama probably will never leave my basement and will most likely never be seen outside of my family and friends ... but building dioramas is my creative release and I'm tired of doing it in a vacuum ... who better to share it with then you all...'
Not true. You have posted pictures here and the images have left your basement. What next? The gutting and execution of William Wallace? A M*A*S*H operating room? A Civil War Field Hospital with a pile of sawed off limbs? Is this child freindly? The comment about mature adults seems to forget the young immature modelers in our midst. Not knowing any teenage Goths... you still have your posted pictures and now it may well be on of their computers as Wallpaper. So you have offered your images to the internet world. Providing a warning...may simply entice their appetite much like junk food. I ask again by displaying these pictures what message are you really offering? What talent does it take to model gore compared to the technological aspects of machinery in miniature?
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
North Carolina, United States
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
Armorama: 7,138 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 01:27 AM UTC
As far as the extent of availability JackFlash makes a very valid point. Simply being on the internet does make the images available to anyone who wants to see them.
That is why I wanted to review them first and to add the thread post that I did earlier with a 'heads up'.
I see two related but different issues popping up - 'scope' and 'content'. Let's not mix them (and we haven't).
Michigan, United States
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 01:57 AM UTC
Heaven forbid some immature goth rebelious teenage youths see these pics and is influenced to go build a diorama of his own!
This is a modeling site one with a heavy military theme. He built a model and asked for permission to display it on this site (I for one would not have asked permission). On this site we have dead people, soldiers shooting enemu soldiers, dogs with explosive packs attacking tanks, hand to hand combat, vehicles and buildings blown to pieces....
You don't support the troops if you don't support the mission!
Distrito Federal, Mexico
Joined: February 22, 2004
KitMaker: 779 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not knowing any teenage Goths... you still have your posted pictures and now it may well be on of their computers as Wallpaper.
I don't think so, that isn't enough for us....... :-) :-) :-)
BadMan, I think some parts of your diorama have too little blood and some of them have too much, Like a saw one soldier with his hand on his chest, and he had his whole hand and almost all of his shirt covered in blood. while blood splatters everywhere it doesn't cover everything. Besides there are some wounds that dont even bleed that much.
also on the surgeon room, the table seems to be covered completely in blood while the floor remains somewhat clean.
good luck and keep it going.
Human at sight, monster at heart.
Distrito Federal, Mexico
Joined: February 22, 2004
KitMaker: 779 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What talent does it take to model gore compared to the technological aspects of machinery in miniature?
It definetly takes a talent, as it is very hard to model realistic gore and blood with out overdoing it.
I know not many people like this, but it did happen and it is still happening, and it seems hard to believe some people support it. Besides thats what all the military machinery is meant to do
Human at sight, monster at heart.
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What next? The gutting and execution of William Wallace? A M*A*S*H operating room? A Civil War Field Hospital with a pile of sawed off limbs? Is this child freindly? The comment about mature adults seems to forget the young immature modelers in our midst. Not knowing any teenage Goths... you still have your posted pictures and now it may well be on of their computers as Wallpaper. So you have offered your images to the internet world. Providing a warning...may simply entice their appetite much like junk food. I ask again by displaying these pictures what message are you really offering? What talent does it take to model gore compared to the technological aspects of machinery in miniature?
If you are offended, don't look at it. Simply modeling vehicles as cold, metal pieces does not represent war. Why must we sanitize war by not showing how it really is? I have been there and held mens' lives in my hands, and lost a few. War is not all about the vehicles and equipment. It is about man killing man. Lets tell it how it really is. I think the dio is really good. I would like to see more of it. As far as kids seeing it, first, they can see worse on the TV news, second, why shouldn't they see it? Let them learn now what it is really about, not just about all the cool vehicles and weapons, and nifty uniforms that get shown in all the sanitized dioramas.
Field Artillery --- The KING of BATTLE!!!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Showcase
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:42 AM UTC
While it is not a matter of what one likes it is a matter of taste and restraint. As mature adults we practice this and it is our responsibility to evaluate what we expose others to (young kids learning to build models.) Again what is the message? What is the diorama telling us? It is as much a need for sensitivity about death as it would be to have a nude female figure sporting a helmet and boots on this site. Being serious for a second here would you call that a military subject? I'm just asking a question here.
About the gore...let me ask how long does it take to drill a hole and slop some paint in place compared to a detailed version of say a 1/48 Mercedes D.IIIaö 180hp inline six? So which takes more talent?
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If you are offended, don't look at it. Simply modeling vehicles as cold, metal pieces does not represent war. Why must we sanitize war by not showing how it really is? I have been there and held mens' lives in my hands, and lost a few. War is not all about the vehicles and equipment. It is about man killing man. Lets tell it how it really is. I think the dio is really good. I would like to see more of it. As far as kids seeing it, first, they can see worse on the TV news, second, why shouldn't they see it? Let them learn now what it is really about, not just about all the cool vehicles and weapons, and nifty uniforms that get shown in all the sanitized dioramas.
Your not listening... it is about protecting young modelers. If you have done half that you claim thenyou may understand the need to 'sanitize' subjects or would you let children go into adult books stores? You want to tell how it really is...then write a book. See who reads it.
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Oregon, United States
Joined: October 24, 2002
KitMaker: 528 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 05:12 AM UTC
If you are so woried about young kids looking at these pics then why dont you try to make it so kids cant go on the net at all.....there are far more grafic websites that kids have easy access to, just as easy as this site.....there are also lots of sites that have real people, not models, that are bloody and gory.....you cant protect the kids from everything, if they want to get to it they will....the best defence to keep the kids from seeing gory things is to be there when they go online or to not let them go online at all.....there is a warning about the content of the pics, just like if a kid looked up a porn web site...they warn about the content but yet let you take a "tour" of there site that shows sexual images.....the same thing goes with this, if they want to see it you cant stop them no matter how hard you try, some how and someway they will see what they want to see......just my opinion.....
Michigan, United States
Joined: March 20, 2004
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 318 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 05:42 AM UTC
Good for you, Badman. The reality is that in war people die, and when that happens, they bleed. Some people obviously don't realize that when they construct that neat dio of an artillery piece, or a sniper, or whatever, that somebody on the other end of that round is going to do exactly that. As for the Goths, teenage or otherwise, having dealt with them I can tell you their "culture" is pretty much based on bloody, creepy stuff, so looking at your pix isn't going to "inspire" them any more than the vampire movies they flock to in droves. Keep building what you feel and if you have questions about it's acceptability, just do what you did this time.
Art
You can't kill a man born to hang.
1st Cavalry Division Military Police-Korea (1960-1961)
226th MP Company, Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN (1961-1962)
California, United States
Joined: April 01, 2002
KitMaker: 4,287 posts
Armorama: 1,867 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:08 AM UTC
Having been on the receiving end of the nastiness of war, I can honestly say I have seen lots worse. The depiction of the makeshift operating room is pretty gory, but then again so is war. Badman is trying to convey a historically accurate picture of what took place and sad as it may be, that invloves blood, sometime lots of it. You have done a good job with your diorama. Keep at it. I'm interested to see how the finished product comes out. "Q"
"Don't fear the night, fear what hunts at night"
staff_Jim
PublisherNew Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
Armorama: 6,599 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:11 AM UTC
Large scale dioramas are always very ambitious in nature. Personally I don't think there is anything in these images that my 4 year old has not seen on TV. While I am 100% behind the notion that we should protect our kids from senseless violence and a certain dis-respect for life, sometimes I do have to wonder if we shield them a bit too much. After all, 10,000 years ago when Uncle UggBak got eaten by a bear, the parents did not tell the child that he fell of a cliff, rather they probably showed the body to the child and said "See...don't play around bears!"
Just thinking out loud.
Jim
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:38 AM UTC
So if we follow the line of thinking presented here...Its gory out there why not in here? War is hell and its ok to shove hell down a child's throat so you can have your say? Now that is barbaric. It is not 10,000 years ago and you don't shove a child's hand into an open flame to warn them about getting burned. We don't drag a child into the middle of the street and shove their faces in a traffic accident and say see drive bad get killed. We as adults are charged with protecting children. Remember it takes a village to raise a child?
We are a community and if we scream that we desrve our rights to be gory...who is going to take anything you do seriously for the real effort you have put into it? How many of you have heard 'thats cute...you must be very proud of that...thats nice... If you can't put it on public display and have it admired as a real work then you will model in a vacum. You want to express thy self.. Guess what ? There are consequences to it. Gore will get you zip, nix nadda when it comes to respect...unless your dealing with a teenage Goth.
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Distrito Federal, Mexico
Joined: February 22, 2004
KitMaker: 779 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:10 AM UTC
But we Badman is not shoving it down a childs throat! he is showing it to us adults, and meanwhile the army is showing handsome guys in TV ads saying "I can be anything I want to be" or something.(don't get me wrong, While I am in favor of serving your country in the military, the truth has to be shown.)
and no, you don't shove a child's hand into an open flame to warn them about getting burned, but they will do it if you don't tell them about it.
Human at sight, monster at heart.
Michigan, United States
Joined: March 20, 2004
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 318 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:11 AM UTC
So they should stop making war movies? Stop showing the aftermath of suicide bombings on TV? Stop anybody with kids in the car from driving past a bad accident? Take hospital dramas off the air? Take all references to war out of the histroy books?Anyway, Badman didn't try to shove anything down somebody's throat. He put the matter to his peers and got a (mostly) positive response. And I don't think he's going to take his dio on a tour of the school system just to have his say.
Art
You can't kill a man born to hang.
1st Cavalry Division Military Police-Korea (1960-1961)
226th MP Company, Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN (1961-1962)
Oregon, United States
Joined: October 24, 2002
KitMaker: 528 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:16 AM UTC
JackFlash, up until you there has been nothing but respect for the dio here......im not a goth and I respect him for doing this dio, it shows what war is about. If you think it is too much for your child dont show it to him or her...its that simple......So I just proved your point wrong because I have respect for this dio, you may not but I dont care if you do or not, that is your decition, but dont say that he will get no respect for this dio because i know alot of non gothic people who like this dio, so you can be quiet (moderator edit)........
Michigan, United States
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:15 AM UTC
Well JackFlash I suggest you screen your own kids' viewing materials. You teach them what you want them to see and what not to see. If Armorama is one of the sites you want them not to se then so be it. I have no problems letting my young ones LOOK AT A PICTURE OF A BUNCH OF MILITARY MODELS
You don't support the troops if you don't support the mission!
Wisconsin, United States
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
Armorama: 727 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:50 AM UTC
Isn't the thing in war that happens the most is death. So when building a dio that represents death and dying (plenty of which kids see on TV everyday) doesn't this make it the common theme of war and military aimed dios?
~Chip
Exercising My First Amendment
Free Country Man!
Texas, United States
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,586 posts
Armorama: 1,225 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:36 AM UTC
Blood and death are a part of war.... as long as you realize that a 1:35 equivilent of blood would still be a tiny amount, then fine. I'm doing a scene right now on Tarawa where a Marine has been shot and is sloshing around in the surf... no major blood here, just some pink tint to the sea foam swirling around him.
Bring it on... sounds like a whale of a diorama!
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
JackFlash, up until you there has been nothing but respect for the dio here... so you can be quiet (moderator edit)........
I simply find gore for public viewing - nonsense. As to you for censuring my right to speak. It is ok then for Badman to tout his blood and gore while you feast on it but I have no right to dissent? What third world bug hole did you unravel yourself from? In a battle of wits your out of ammunition.
I have said nothing about mine or your children. I have opened the subject concerning young modelers - children new to modeling- neophytes that need the encouragement to do well and build creatively. But it keeps coming through that there is little concern here for that type of person.
You want to make a statement then build a diorama of Auschwitz or Dachau... Show the noble SS scum beating shooting helpless women and children. You want to keep it real eh?
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But we Badman is not shoving it down a childs throat! he is showing it to us adults, and meanwhile the army is showing handsome guys in TV ads saying "I can be anything I want to be" or something.(don't get me wrong, While I am in favor of serving your country in the military, the truth has to be shown.)
Do you understand that if its on this site that anyone can access it? That goes beyond just the few that have asked to see the diorama. When you say us there is more to it than just the posting members.
The truth has to be shown huh...ever tell a kid about the Cabalero who brings Christmas presents?
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
'... On this site we have dead people, soldiers shooting enemu soldiers, dogs with explosive packs attacking tanks, hand to hand combat, vehicles and buildings blown to pieces....
No, you don't have dead people...you have white metal, plastic and resin figures in simulated collapsed or prone positions. Not people. Its not real... hello?!
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Michigan, United States
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:34 AM UTC
Well then we don't have real blood either. What's your point then? It's not real gore. Just red paint on metal and plastic. As to the young folks, only you seem to have a problem exposing young modelers to red paint on plastic and metal.
It's also not like every dio on this site is gore. I think we all agree gore is part of war. This is one of only a minor handful of dios that features more than a few small wounds.
You don't support the troops if you don't support the mission!
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So they should stop making war movies? Stop showing the aftermath of suicide bombings on TV? Stop anybody with kids in the car from driving past a bad accident? Take hospital dramas off the air? Take all references to war out of the histroy books?Anyway, Badman didn't try to shove anything down somebody's throat. He put the matter to his peers and got a (mostly) positive response. And I don't think he's going to take his dio on a tour of the school system just to have his say. Art
We were talking about a free access site that had a diorama under discussion, right? You want to change the world good luck. No one accused of shoving anything. It is the blatant selfserving attitude that does that. Since he has posted his images here it will go far beyond touring local school districts.
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
Armorama: 256 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Isn't the thing in war that happens the most is death. So when building a dio that represents death and dying (plenty of which kids see on TV everyday) doesn't this make it the common theme of war and military aimed dios?
~Chip
Is that right? Death a common theme? huh?
". . .The most important thing is to know why you build and then get the most that you can out of building." via D.D.
