This is my first posting and the last thing I want to do is bring up a controversial subject however after reading archived posts here I feel I should bring this up before submitting any pics of my work on my first diorama. In the past, the subject of blood and the gory realism of war has been reviewed with mixed opinions … anyway … here’s my story …

I’ve been working on a street scene from the Battle for the Arnhem Bridge for almost twenty years. I wanted to depict the final desperate hours of Col. Johnny Frost’s battalion fighting for their lives.

I started it when I was in the service, shelved it when I got out, found it in my basement two years ago and started working on it again (twenty-two years to be exact).

The diorama sits on a 3’ x 2.5’ base. It contains two complete buildings (all four sided) two intersections, a small portion of a park, two Tamaya Panzer IV’s, approximately 80 Airfix British Airborne troops (all completed and not one posed the same way) and approximately 48 assorted Dragon Panzer and Panzer Grenadier troops (various kits). I’m just completing the Germans (probably another couple of weeks and then I start on the interiors of the buildings the floors are all done … ah … but there is so much more to do). This is all being done in 1/35th scale. It’s pretty extensive, I carved the buildings and the street out of sheetrock.

Here’s the controversy … There is action in through out this diorama from a trooper crying over his slain buddy to a two inch mortar team trying to adjust fire with the help from a spotter two floors up ... and yes … there is blood … a considerable amount.

There is an aid station set up in room (second floor … yes I know it usually happens in a basement, but I couldn’t depict a basement), there is wounded crammed and littered about, while four medical personnel (two doctors and two medics) try to care for them. There is blood in this room … and even though it’s a charnel house (according to some of the people I work with) I don’t feel that I’ve splashed a bunch of red paint for shock value. The doctors, using a dining room table are working on a soldier who lost his lower legs … they are performing surgery and it looks very realistic right down to the surgical clamps and tourniquet. The wounded are bandaged and bloody … there are corpses covered with sheets (all you see are the legs but there you are). There is a scene in the street where a shell just exploded wounding some of the Red Devils, one has a wound in his abdomen and is being held by his buddy while waving for a medic, another has a compound fracture of the leg and is being given morphine by a fellow soldier while another guy is balled up in the fetal position in pain. There’s more … I don’t want anyone to feel that this is all my diorama is about … but it is a part of it.

I guess I’m wondering if people are interested in seeing this … that is to say, is it appropriate for viewing? I appreciate any constructive input.

Thank you.

I would really like to see it. I know that casualties and blood are a realistic part of warfare (i have been there and seen it first hand) and there is nothing wrong with building a diorama that shows this. I have done dead and wounded with blood in my dios, and like you said, some people have told me it is aweful and I should remove them. I feel they are a little sheltered and need to get out. If they don't like it or it turns their stomach, don't look at. As long it is done tastefully and not just splashed around for the hell of it, I see nothing wrong with it. But don't worry, if it is offending to some of the site mediators, they will just delete the post and tell all it should not be looked at because it is offensive. Yeah, that has actually happened here before, caused a great stink. Here is one of mine from Chosin Resevoir, Korea.

First I would like to welcome you to Armorama, I hope you enjoy it here. Secondly by all means please post your work, what you are depicting is a real part of war. Cheers Kevin

Being a fan of Market Garden you have peaked my interest. I say if the vast quantities of blood is done accurately then it will look real. If you just simply pours a bottle of red then that's just slop

Give us a look . Like HeavyArty said if it is to bad the worse that can happen is it being deleted. Sounds like a huge dio.

Badman,
I am an average modeler. Been so for about 33 years now. But I have always noticed a lack of 'war' in most military models. There is humor, for sure. There are, what I call 'static displays of static kits'--the idle armor arranged in rows on a shelf. Or a set of aircraft from every era, parked as if posed at an air show. There are dioramas of the wounded. They are usually seen being carried off by their fellows, lightly bandaged with just a touch of a red spot on the dressing to hint of a wound. These carry a PG rating or perhaps PG-13 at the most.

It is hard to find armor kits at the big department stores. Since tanks are not as sexy as airplanes and are inherently evil war machines.

We build miniatures of elements of destruction yet we normally display (or regard) them as bringers of peace. Rationalizing? Or avoidance?

Things could be changing. There is a recent thread here in Armorama about a company producing burned out, destroyed tanks. Saves on scratch building.

I say bring it on. The squeamish can avert their eyes. Like sex and violence on television-the naysayers can change the channel if they don't like what they see.

Suggestion—upload the pics to your photo gallery. Then post a link to said gallery with a caveat about the subject matter and content. Sit back and see what replies you get.

Welcome, and thanks for the well thought out post.

Welcome Badman. As the guys said its comes down to the individual viewer. For me, the use of blood or lack of thereof is just a means to an end no different from adding a jerry can here or tree there. What's really important is what is the message the modeller trying to convey.

You mentioned you wished to portray bravery and desparation in the face of adversity. I believe Arnhem at least for me stands for that irrespective of the sides. The British for their bravery and their devotion to the job despite incredible odds. The Germans for their humanity in agreeing to a ceasfire to remove the wounded and the dead and offering a surrender and most of all the civies who had to sacrifice their homes and their lives for freedom.

Thus showing blood soaked wounded would portray some of the above elements if the intention was to do so. Audiences and even kids nowdays (I hope) are more matured and if not perhaps your portrayal of a man with his legs cut off may at least provoke some kid to ask his parent why something like that would happen assuming the kid isn't already desensitized by all the violence on the TV. Hopefully the parent will explain the horrors of war and why wars are just a waste of good men.

Just my more than 2 cents worth.

G'day mate
ive always stuck by my guns on this subject and believe that blood, and gore (even to the extent of missing limbs and prurtuding organs) is totally fine if you are trying to show the harsh reality of war, whcih is that these thigns happen, so i believe in order to be accurate, it sometiems needs to be done.
however there is a fine line between a "good" amount, and overdoing it, i dont think anyone wants to see a diorama where the base is mostly red and every one is missing limbs.
But it can be done succesfully and without overdoing it.
cheers mate, thats just my opinion anyway

I don't mind it. Personally, I don't like to put dead and bloody U.S. soldiers in dios, but I don't hold it against anyone else if they do in theirs. I'm a firmly opposed to censorship of any kind. A person has the right to like, or hate something, but to force their beliefs on someone else for their own comfort is one of the worst things I think anyone could do. However, there are members here who are underage and their parents might not like them viewing “adult” content. Here's a proposal, maybe there would be a way to add something to the post topic, letting people know that it contains graphic content. Either that or we could just make a forum for “Adult” model posts. That way people could view them, but those that wouldn't want to wouldn't have to deal with them. Personally, I don't care what they show. I say show it, but maybe put a warning in the topic name.

well subjects like that have raised again before . And also blood items are shown almost everyday in our dios less or more. The main point i see is if the blood is used cause is needed to fill the scene for reason of realism and accurate representation , or is just spilled there either to shock or just play with some colour.

So if u have a wonder about how shockin or provocative this could be u always could load the pictures to ur gallery and let people see them. I definately will check them as i always look for other people;s works techniques, and i am at an age that can judge and not be shocked by anything.

If u believe that all these years of work should be presented and there is no fear of wrong impressions just make the post and let people tell what they think.
Artistic freedom as we say here always is primarily target in modelling , so i will be happy looking and commenting ur work

Costas

Badman,

Welcome aboard. I would like to thank you for the way you brought up the subject in relation to your diorama.

I think it's best to send the pitures to the editors in the diorama section (Slodder and myself) and let us examine the pics and the scene. I'm a "Arnhem Modeler" myself, so you have stirred my interest with this diorama.

I hope you decide to share the pictures with Scott (Slodder) and me. I think we can find a suitable solution for this matter.

Again, thanks for the way you brought up the subject in relation to publishing pictures of the diorama.

I hope to hear from you soon. In case you want to share the pictures by email, you can use my address :

[email protected]

Congratulations three times.. Once for putting in what sounds like a dedicated effort on your project, once for your insight into presenting the situation the way you have, and once for joining us at Armorama! I've always believed that modeling is a way to present real life in miniature, good or bad, so post your pics, or screen them through the editors, but by all means let us see the end result after such a detailed description.

Art

Just watching the evening news is a blood soaked affair these days. I don't think a REALISTIC portrayal would be a hard thing to view. That said though buckets of blood splashed around is just that. Taste and realism are a subjective issue and only oneself can decide what is tasteful. I myslef dont focus my modeling attentions on the gory side of warfare rather I focus my attention on the machines and the men. I saw quite enough while in the army and dont need to recreate it at home. That is my hobby and to each his own. I only ask that it be realistic and not gory. I also would hate to see your dio Censored by someone who feels it is not appropriate. The second we start to Censor "ART" we have lost all that the men who died to preserve our current values and ideals fought so hard for. So in short, please share you work with us and each of us will decide for ourselves, Just make sure your title includes a warning for the younger members. These are my opinions and should not be taken as anything else.
Cheers,
Bryan

Taking Bryan's comment a bit further. When you see someone who has been blood stained, unless the blood is on a light colored item, it rarely appears very red, more along the llines of undiluted alizarin crimson. Blood on a dark surface, such as a street, appears very dark leaning towards the old shoe polish color, Oxblood, more maroon that red. Even when it's fresh. (Personal experience here, the day I learned to wear a bucycle helmet, I crashed needing 25 sticthes in my head. The blood on my light yellow shirt was red, on my olive green shorts, there was no redness showing. The pool of blood on the road surface was dark maroon.

I for one would really like to see what you have so far. That way I can form an opinion based on facts and not hypothesize of what would be acceptable and what would not. I think that sometimes blood is necessary in dioramas. We are after all recreating war using plastic and resin. War is brutal and casualties are the unfortunate part of it. Sometimes to make a scene believable or accurate one needs to show some carnage.

Show war as it really is. But dont overdo it as it only would look silly and childish.

Id say we should show violence, death, agony, pain, sorrow etc that occurs in wars. This to ensure we dont start to like it.

I remember this dio which felt like a punch in the solar plexus and it should. Thats why it is such a good diorama.

http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/modelpages/SHPmygod.htm

Yes, that is a great diorama, it is also the one that was censored here at Armorama because it was too offensive to show. That is how some felt anyways. They would rather show the soldiers having a bite of sausage and a beer and sitting around their tank, yup, that is how war should be remembered, fun was had by all. Lets not show true history though. We don't want to show war as it actually is. We might offend someone.

Here's abit of fun on thre subject.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14362&hl=grave+doubt

welcome to the site.
i also see nothing wrong with some blood,
i would like to also see this dio

Im another who doesn´t like when censorship rears its ugly head. If its a dio that shows the reality and horror of war, and the use of blood adds to that dio... why not?
Personally, Ive never felt like making a dio thats gory, but anything modelled realistically, gets my thumbs up ... controversial or not! Im more interested in the art of modelling... that the statement behind it.

I would love to see what you have modelled 22 years ago and how it looked ... and then what has been added since, to compare. It would be interesting to see how your personal vision has changed over time!

Ciao everyone,
Plasticbattle has a point. Modelling is an art, and art should be expressive. Blood and gore are part of war and war and its machines are what we model.
Ciao for now
Rob

Hey thank you all for the immediate and very constructive comments.

First … HeavyArty ... very nice diorama ... not enough Korean war dios around ... I know who to go to when I need pointers on doing armor!

Secondly, I have VERY ... VERY preliminary pics of my “WHOA MOHAMMED!” to send, I just need to know in what format they need to be in and whom I should send them to.

Finally, the color and the texture of blood is extremely hard to capture realistically … on skin and clothing as well as the ground (concrete, wood, cloth, soil, etc.) … It is never the same and I look at some of the soldiers that I’ve completed and feel like tearing them apart and starting over again because there is a fine line between gratuitous blood and reality.

I use the Vallejo acrylics for figure painting (Polly S for armor and buildings) and tried using Gunze Sangyo transparent red as the basis for the blood wash which blends in better with the back round colors. For the wounds themselves I use a combination of reds and black in the transparent wash.

Now I’d really like to show my pics of various stages of my diorama in development and get off this subject (don’t want you all to think the new guy is a ghoul).

Well got a message from Slodder … so I better get the pics to him and let the chips fall … this is the first time I’m showing anyone who is into modeling my work … so I’m a bit nervous … OK hope to have something out to you all by tomorrow night.

Thanks.

TOKE,

That's one of the finest dioramas I've ever seen ... it belongs in the Holocaust museum in D.C. To me diorama building is art ... when I started this many years ago, I was doing it to pass the time ... now it's different. I'm not trying to wax philosophical ... but for me it's not just building models. I'm not trying to glorify war, I'm trying to honor the memory of the individuals who took part in it as honestly as possible.

WOW that diorama is a surely a punch in the stomach ... on the filp side ... me wife's parents were sole survivors of the Holocaust. Her mother and aunt survived Treblinca (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong) and her father at 17 was smuggled out of Berlin the day after the Night of the Broken Glass ... ended up in Palistine ... somehow became a British subject and fought in an armored unit in the 8th Army through Africa and Italy to include Cassino. His family was slaughtered in Manhausen (again poor speller) ...

bottom line ... I'd be hard pressed to show that diorama to my wife.

I guess if portions of my diorama were censored I'd understand.