How late in the war would the Panther D be appropriate for? Would D-day be too late or late 44 still be ok? Would they have zimmerit on them also.
Thanks
Recon
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Panther D
Recon
Joined: October 19, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:31 PM UTC
Stormbringer
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 03:00 PM UTC
Hi Recon
Some Panther D's lasted right through to the end of the war albeit very few. I have a picture somewhere on my pc of a Panther D in the Ardennes.
As far as I know the Panther D production ended just before Zimmerit was introduced,although I have heard that some had it applied in the field, but I haven't been able to substantiate this.
HTH
Pete
Some Panther D's lasted right through to the end of the war albeit very few. I have a picture somewhere on my pc of a Panther D in the Ardennes.
As far as I know the Panther D production ended just before Zimmerit was introduced,although I have heard that some had it applied in the field, but I haven't been able to substantiate this.
HTH
Pete
Slug
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 03:20 PM UTC
I agree with Peter, The french army used panthers in the imediate post-war period.
Henk
Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 03:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
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I agree with Peter, The french army used panthers in the imediate post-war period.
That is correct, but they were, IIRC, late models, which were captured when the factories etc, were overrun. I don't think the French would have used D versions. Besides, most D's which had survived that long would have more than likely be sent back for repairs/refitting, were they would have received most of the upgrades of the later models. Such as zimmerit.
Cheers
Henk
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 04:17 PM UTC
Late model Panther D's with the cast cupola were produced at about the same time of the introduction of zimmerit. So these were definately covered. Earlier D's were retro coated with zimmerit, usually in the field, with very rough coats without the distictive cross-hatch pattern.
As a point of interest, I believe the last combat action of a Panther was in the Syrian army against Israel during the 1967 War, (or was it the Yom Kippur War??).
As a point of interest, I believe the last combat action of a Panther was in the Syrian army against Israel during the 1967 War, (or was it the Yom Kippur War??).
jpzr
Joined: July 01, 2004
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Posted: Friday, January 07, 2005 - 01:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Late model Panther D's with the cast cupola were produced at about the same time of the introduction of zimmerit. So these were definately covered. Earlier D's were retro coated with zimmerit, usually in the field, with very rough coats without the distictive cross-hatch pattern.
As a point of interest, I believe the last combat action of a Panther was in the Syrian army against Israel during the 1967 War, (or was it the Yom Kippur War??).
According to Jentz, what were mistakenly labeled late Ds were actually early As. In fact, some of the first A models to roll out of the factories had the drum cupola (his Panzer Tracts book on the A has a couple of photos of such a vehicle). The most salient features demarking the A from the D were the cut of the interlock of the turret front and the sides, as well as the shape of the bulge behind the mantlet on the turret front plate and the width of the mantlet itself. Working from memory, I think the D had angled cuts while the A had flat. The bulge on the turret front of the D was flatter, and had sort of an S-shaped scallop, while the A was more semi-circular. The mantlet of the A was also slightly wider.
Now, it is true that some Ds likely had their drum cupolas replaced with the cast ones when they were returned to factories for refitting. This was also when the zimmerit was applied. There is scant evidence of zimmerit being applied in the field.
mikeli125
Joined: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Friday, January 07, 2005 - 02:20 AM UTC
I've a picture of a D/A that had been knocked out in the upper silesia area during 1945 so unless it was a training tank it must have had a lucky streak to survive as long as it did or been rebuilt a fair few times this tank did not have any Zimm on it either
Drader
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Posted: Friday, January 07, 2005 - 02:22 AM UTC
Odd Panther Ds survived up until the end of the war, like this example now at Breda
http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/PzV-12.htm
Steven Zaloga's Eastern Front - camouflage and markings has a photo of a D abandoned in Poland near the end of the war.
Panthers in the Middle East remain dubious, like the fabled Vietnam pink Panther.
http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/PzV-12.htm
Steven Zaloga's Eastern Front - camouflage and markings has a photo of a D abandoned in Poland near the end of the war.
Panthers in the Middle East remain dubious, like the fabled Vietnam pink Panther.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 08:06 AM UTC
B-a-a-a-a-a!!! Do I sound sheepish? I should! Those were MkIV's used by the Syrians in the Golan Heights during the Six-Day War in 1967. Ironically, they were knocked out by Super Shermans.
bodymovin
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Posted: Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 01:55 PM UTC
i have to say....the panther was the prettiest tank of the war
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 09:14 AM UTC
I'd be inclined to agree with Peter, it would be possible for a Panther D to survive until 1945. However I agree with Steve, I can't envisage Zimmerit being applied in the field, it was a concrete-like paste which was usually applied at the factory. A re-engineered one might be retro-fitted.
The first use of the Panther was at Kursk in mid 1943. At that time it was a "new" vehicle, new enough to have a lot of "teething" problems. I thought that Zimmerit began to be applied in 1943 & ceased at the end of 1944, so I'd expect them to have it, but I'm at work so can't check my references. I recall those used by SS Panzer Korps at Kursk had the "dustbin" cupola. A lot of early Panthers were re-engineered as non-gun tanks, ie Bergepanthers & Beobachtungspanzers (OP tanks), which had a dummy wooden gun.
I would say the most noticeable distinctions between a D & an A would be the machine gun mounting in the glacis plate, & the cupola.
Most Panthers seen in photos are G's, this is because they were the major production model.
The first use of the Panther was at Kursk in mid 1943. At that time it was a "new" vehicle, new enough to have a lot of "teething" problems. I thought that Zimmerit began to be applied in 1943 & ceased at the end of 1944, so I'd expect them to have it, but I'm at work so can't check my references. I recall those used by SS Panzer Korps at Kursk had the "dustbin" cupola. A lot of early Panthers were re-engineered as non-gun tanks, ie Bergepanthers & Beobachtungspanzers (OP tanks), which had a dummy wooden gun.
I would say the most noticeable distinctions between a D & an A would be the machine gun mounting in the glacis plate, & the cupola.
Most Panthers seen in photos are G's, this is because they were the major production model.
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 09:22 AM UTC
Hm. Just checked the D at Breda, there's no evidence of Zimmerit on that. But then there isn't any on the G at Houfflize either. So wasn't it applied, or has it weathered away over the 60 years since the war? Guess it's your choice mate! Looks like a non-Zimmerit Panther D at the wars end is OK.
jpzr
Joined: July 01, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 03:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I would say the most noticeable distinctions between a D & an A would be the machine gun mounting in the glacis plate, & the cupola.
The kugelblende, or ball-mount, makes for a poor distinguishing feature between the D & the A as a fairly good number of early A models had the letter-box flap in the glacis. Jentz is the one who is mainly responsible for debunking this long-standing point of confusion. He also points out that some of the earliest A models received the drum cupola.
The only sure way to tell the difference between a D or A turret is by examining the mantlet and the turret front on which the mantlet sat, as those changes were the benchmark features denoting the different ausf. designation according to factory part numbers. All other changes (pistol port, cupola, kugelblende) were introduced during the production runs of the D (pistol port) or the A (cupola, kugelblende).
mikeli125
Joined: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Monday, January 10, 2005 - 04:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hm. Just checked the D at Breda, there's no evidence of Zimmerit on that. But then there isn't any on the G at Houfflize either. So wasn't it applied, or has it weathered away over the 60 years since the war? Guess it's your choice mate! Looks like a non-Zimmerit Panther D at the wars end is OK.
Steve,
The Panther at Breda does have Zimm
Dragonwagon has posted some walk round pics of it
he's got a few more here
jw73
Joined: April 08, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 07:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
i have to say....the panther was the prettiest tank of the war
I agree. It is my favorite tank of wwII.
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