indeed,plenty of bricks :-) :-) I wonder if he finds out the post is about him.,on the other hand.............. :-) i leave it at this because he is a young member also as i recall

Vic:

Very interesting point and it's basic subject matter
is something that we all need to keep in mind, no
matter what language we speak or what age we are
— and while on the subject of age, I guess I'm the
oldest "muddler" who posted a thread on this
particular topic SO FAR, at age 69 — or what
we dealing with whether it is modeling, at
the work place, in a relationship, in church,
in debt or in hot water, or what ever, being tactful
is a wonderful trait to embrace and develop.

It is not what we say but how we say it.
Of course I didn't originate
that phrase. But there is wisdom in those words. And
we're all aware of it. You reminded us.

If nothing else Vic, your point has brought
an important aspect of how we show proper
respect to one another, to the fore. Here here,

Miami Jayhawk

:-) I know, I just tried it :-) Shot myself in the foot though :-)

:-) :-) :-) that was the last laugh this time ,i am off to bed now.
always enjoy armourama.ooops :-) :-) thanks dudes.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[quote]


I maybe getting older but there is nothing wrong with my thyroid and I cannot think how to use one for modelling. Oh btw I followed your link.

John

Hmm... I'd have to disagree with this one. If this is for the younger members, it really won't do us any good in the long run. Yeah, sure saying "great job especially for being so young!" may send the reciever of such a message on an ego trip. But it won't fix the big gap at the fron't of the hull, or the unrealistic weathering, or the seams that were failed to be sanded. With the age shown right beside the original post, it only promotes such simple, unhelpful, and ultimately hampering reply. I can get 100,000,000 replies of "great job", and. 1 reply of "you may want to fix that gap, sand that seam, and tone down the weathering", yet that one is better than all of them combined.


EDIT: maybe a counter that shows how many years of experience?

Howdy All...

I have just recently stopped by the site to hang out for a while because both the site, and the members here have always simply made me feel good....
Saw this thread and just had to read thru it, especially since I have been addressing this issue on other fronts as of late.

Must say though....came to my old mate Gunnie's post on the 1st page and came to a gentle halt and said "That says it! "

Put {not so} simply,

I have extreme confidence in the young people who we are fortunate enough to have visiting our site here at Armorama. They are talented, devoted and most importantly, intelligent people who have independently chosen to embrace this hobby we all find so dear...and selfishly decided to invest their youthful time in an endeavour that almost by design pays homage to those who participated in-the-real-world in the engagements they attempt to depict by their works.....and put aside {at least for a time} the more enticing attraction of hanging at out the Mall, or exercising their thumb muscles by playing console games of one sort or another.....

To attempt a possible illustration of my confidence in our 'younger crowd'.....I can't tell you how many times I have had the fortune of chatting with one of our members here about subject matter that would be challenging to my peers, only to happily find that the person I was talking to was in their teens!.........fills me with confidence I can assure you.
It has to be remembered, that the fine young lads and lasses that we have spending time here at Armorama are counting on us to critique them just like we would any other.....with gentle and honest support. Believe me, they can take it. Just as long as it's honest, and serve's the purpose to elevate their understanding and confidence in their abilities.....personally, I can;t think of a better way to pass the torch.


Post ages?........if you feel the need I suppose.

Is there a need?........not on your life.

Tread.

The real root of the deal is not about age, it's about common sence and politeness.

I believe I know both the posts involved. I see nothing wrong with pointing out to anyone that they are posting without punctuation or grammar. I can understand a typo or some of our foreign member having trouble with English but when I see someone from the good old USA stringing 10 sentences into one I feel it is not only my right but an obligation to point it out. 14 or 40 they should be able to do better.

Unless it's some unecessary name calling, I don't see any issue with pointing out a gap or wrong time period especially if they say, "any comments?' or something along those lines. The irregularities don't change based on age of the modeller.

True perhaps we coud choose better words but I see nothing wrong in pointing them out

Just missed my point slightly, I agree with you that constructive criticism should be given, that's not what this is about, it's how it's done. Make young ones, or anyone for that matter, feel good about what they've done but then say to make it better you could do this or that. Or to make it historically correct, next time use this pattern etc etc.

Thanks for your comment.

Vic

That is the point I'm making.


On your other point though Alan I can't agree. It is not up to us to possibly embarress someone for bad writing. That person may not have had an education let alone a good one. They may be dyslexic or have some other learning difficulty. For someone like that it can take a great deal of courage to write and post in public. To get shot down in flames for their writing ability, again in public, can do a hell of a lot of harm.
I know, I have some students with not the best backgrounds or abilities and some with learning difficulties. They come here to model not pass an English exam.

No offence Alan, just my opinion, as is yours

This is my reply that started this all: You need to reconsider your painting on the halftrack. The Ambush Pattern was ordered in August 1944 and Kursk took place in July 1943. And I stand by it.
I thought the ambush pattern was out of place and in less than 5 minutes in google I had my answer. I offered this as a way to let another person he needed to make a correction to what would be seen as a significant error.
I wish I had someone to do that for me when I entered my first contest at maybe 13 with a Chevy that had more exhaust pipes than cylendars and had at least one set that would have blocked the doors. Instead I faced ridicule for a ridiculous model. It would have been kinder to hear, "10 exhaust pies for an 8 cylendar engine is at least one set too many. You should also reconsider having a set of pipes runing across the doors."
As to respect for the age of the original poster, there is nothing in the picture post indicating his age. Remember, not everyone reads through whole thread before replying.

People cannot reply to a post if they cannot dechiper the text, dyslexic or uneducated. I can't tell you how many posts where I simply skip over and not bother to reply because I can't figure out what is the question. They may not be expecting an English test but the forum does use English to communicate

That may be what you intend, but I doubt it will happen. From what I've seen most people will see the age of 14, 15 or younger and feel obliged to simply write "great job",and not tell them how to fix the problems in the build. That really does nothing to advancing the kid's skills, and is ultimately unhelpful.

Maybe there is another reason why these discussions keep coming up. We have in essence two different forums for this, the 'normal' forum where people can post their work, completed or in progress, for the enjoyment of all and to get a pat on the back ( admit it, we all like to be told 'that looks great'.. ) and some comments. Then there is the Rivet Review Board, which is for the nit picking, rivet counting critique which some desire to get that little extra from their feedback. The RRB is not for ' oh well done, and never mind that the Panzer IV never had an 88mm gun, it looks good anyway' type of replies. That's why you have to sign up for it, after reading and accepting the rules.
Some people don't mind straight forward critique (aslong as it's not derogatory) as they use it to improve their models ( I do). Some people don't like that, and that has to be respected too.
I think rather than looking at peoples age ( which means very little) or 'experience' ( which can mean even less..) we should look at the number of posts, together with the enlist date. If somebody has only recently enlisted, or has very few posts he ( or she... ) is probably not accustomed to our ways. Some of the exchances in some posts can look to an outsider as rather harsh, or even downright rude, but often the posters have know each other for a fair time, and are used to each others way of expression ( read writing ).

In the end however, you can not avoid the occasional ooops, and some people will not like what they hear. That is up to them, as it is in 'the real world' . Some people live and learn, some don't.

I can see the men in white coats approaching, I have to go..

Cheers
Henk

This is a double edged sword here. For someone looking for an honest critique to improve their model, being polite can amount to "pumping sunshine up one's butt" and not do them any good. Conversely, a novice who gets an honest critique from fellow modelers could be discouraged by it.

You can critique politely, some people just go on the defensive at even the slightest helpful hints.

I've since learned to keep my opinion to myself unless I am specifically asked to comment or when I see superb builds that just make me want to say "wow".

As I told Vic, I have had the fields for DOB and Years Modeling in the database's user table for some time. I just haven't implemented them yet. I agree that by default showing ones age is not needed. However if a user wants to display their age or how many years they have been building models then all the better for situations like this.

If I can put my Vulcan ears on here I think that DUBDUB took Al's comments the wrong way, and at the same time some members responded in that "father-like" mode of "don't let the mean dogs scare you". Al is not a mean dog. Nor is his post mean in any way. What people SHOULD have said is that not everyone who posts here wants to have their worked critiqued. Some younger or new modelers simply want to show off their stuff and bask in the glory of their deeds. That's fine. We have the RRB for those looking for critques and those that post in the other forums will get comments, opinions or advice whether they want it or not (my personal rule is not to post critique unless they say they want it, outside the RRB of course). Either way... thicker skins dads. If it were your sons you would have slapped him upside the head and said... 1942?!?!

Welcome aboard DUBDUB. Don't let any mean dogs or nice guys scare you we are really a nice bunch of modelers.

Cheers,
Jim

Quote-
"Just missed my point slightly, I agree with you that constructive criticism should be given, that's not what this is about, it's how it's done. Make young ones, or anyone for that matter, feel good about what they've done but then say to make it better you could do this or that. Or to make it historically correct, next time use this pattern etc etc.

Thanks for your comment."
Exactly what I meant as to 'tweaking' the reply as applied to age level.Also true is everyone likes/craves the positive stroke to the ego after a building effort.Praise the good where good and suggest ways and methods to buff up the weak spots.How this is gotten across to the builder via text response can greatly be enhanced if age is known.If the modeler is young,then it's pretty fair to assume it's still a new and fun mostly hobby rather than how accurate that varient was nailed in your latest dio when you are a 50+ year old plastic freak.
Rick

Seen it as well and was a bit disappointed in the individual's attitude toward the other poster. I like the idea as well, but would have to go with I believe it was Vinnie's suggestion, that it be on a voluntary basis. I would suspect that most would not have a problem with it. It's hard enough to get some of the younger folks interested in this hobby much less to be ripped to shreds over spelling and grammer or, the presentation of their work....


late edit I see I'm late to the party again...

I've been reading through this thread, and at first I agreed with Vic that an age indication should be carried. Then I thought about a qualification patch (Junior Member, Senior Citizen, Prime of Life :-) , etc), but now I think it's all a bit unnecessary.

Even if someone's a bit harsh, there'll be others who'll balance things off, and ensure that no one's offended.

What I usually do before critiquing something is check the poster's profile. That usually gives an indication of age and/or experience.

Just ease up and don't be too curt to new members. Balance off your criticisms with what you like about the subject.

As for spelling, punctuation, etc. Come on, Alan, lighten up. Except for a single individual (I think we all remember him ) I have not seen any English posts that I couldn't decipher if I read it a couple of times. And that's not too much to ask, surely? I've noticed typos even in features, reviews, and news, so no one's perfect. If a post can't be understood, just seek clarification. Keep the critique for the subject posted.

Thanks again guys for all your posts, great response, great feedback and great dicussion which was what I was after. It made us all think about it.


Al (Al LaFleche) This wasn't aimed at you my friend. That's why I didn't name the threads or people. Yes it was that thread that promted me a bit but it was my other example that really got me going plus I've seen others that had a young one saying "hey I'm only .....years old.
You criticisms and advice are always well intended, valid and helpful. I've been on the recieving side a few time myself :-). I've got a lot of respect for you and your work.

Vic

Hi
When I first saw the title I did think..."Oh no....they'll all find out....they'll all know that I was around when Andy Pandy was but a twinkle in the BBC's eye".

But having read the post I can see the sincerity and would not mind at all having my age put on the data panel.
Or for those who are a bit precious when it comes to age, maybe an age band...."no no put that guitar down old rocker man"....a 7 to 14 years, 14 to 25 years kind of thing.

But what with my dislexia...., you think our young members are the only ones with spelling problems... ?
you should have seen the state of this post before I put the spell-czech thingy on


There is a down side though....since joining I've had many discussions with various members on an equal footing without knowing their age. And sometimes I've been surprised at the maturity of our youngsters when I did find out.

So if age display is required then there would be no problem from me...other than the usual

Cheers
Peter
:-)

Hola gringo,

Very interesting debate. It brings me some thoughs :

I didn't realized they were some much grandfathers on this forum.. (I'm 26). Old people are sometimes not easy people, they can be frustrated and mostly, for the most of them, they cannot progress more. So young people, don't be afraid of them, they envy you..

My second thoughs is that it's very important to be polite, always. Even if the writer ask comments, never be rude, and always start to compliment the guy. I think one problem of this hobby is that we are perceived as fussy people, always searching the small detail, the correct camo scheme, etc..also look for the perfection, the PE, etc..I don't if it exist in English but I could resume in PainIntheAssForNothingPerson PAFNP. And when I do the Paris model expo, wow, it's full of PAFNP ! They scared me, and I cause stress because I think I'm like them, OMG.
So for young people (even including 20's) be cool and present the bright face of the hobby, not the PAFNP, so nobody will choose this hobby no more.

Last thing, be gentle also with people trying to speak english like a cow (especially me). It's not hard to understand your treads, and it's a very good exercise since I learn a lot of vocabulary and expressions (when you speak of the devil..in France the same expression is When you speak of the wolf, you see it's tail). But it's hard to make understandable phrase (with a "cool" vocabulary) even more on a technical subject. I would really like to know how many nationality there is on this forum, and what are the percentage for each country ?

So young and old men, it's an honour to be on armorama, I read the post everyday at my work (but don't say it to my boss) and I must say everybody is very gentle, helpful and there is a lot of humour.

So keep on going !

KG

Good point, as teachers we are taught that when giving feedback to a student, start with something positive, then give the negative and finish with something positive. It keeps up their morale.

Vic

My opinion on this (and by the way, I'm 14)...
If I post pics of a model on here, a dozen people telling me what a great job I've done won't do me any good at all, especially if I know that in reality it's not particularly good and they're just saying that because I'm young. What I do want is constructive criticism, instead of telling me how good my model is, I'd prefer to know what could be better, what needs to be changed. And I don't want to be treated or have my models commented on any differently because I'm younger than most of you guys.

So if you hadn't figured it out, I am definitely against having the option to show age.
Sorry if that sounded like a rant...

Dave