Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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DML#6383 Tiger 1 Turret Zimmerit Mod
barkmann424
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Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 08:02 PM UTC
Hello there! Hi Rob!
Good to know that the sub coat of brown is about right... Just have to work out how to represent the very 'Ying & Yang' effect on this Tiger! Great to hear that you are venturing back into the jungle with the modelling, sounds like some 'Big Cat's' are in for 'Hell'? Sorry for the staccato effect upon the posting, but Chaos has been riding shotgun for the last few weeks... But rain is on the way, so a modelling fest could be on the cards, though I have been beavering away on three sets of tracks.. Just to complete the AM 'set'!
Grant (Vanhall) has managed to rustle up another image of the 'ad-hoc-bloc', sported by many a well preened Tiger!


Surely Dragon will have to incorporate this into any forthcoming 'Late Tiger' kits, in the near future... David have you drawn the technical stuff on this yet?

Thanks Rob,'ta muchly' Grant! Back later...

Cheers Phil.

http://barkmannscorner.blogspot.com/

http://zimmerit-it.blogspot.com/
Byrden
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Posted: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:37 PM UTC
No, I've not drawn it yet... perhaps the time has come?

David
barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 09:50 PM UTC
Saludos Amigos!

Another day off, and a bit of 'Dabbling'!

Hello David, that would be awfully kind of you to knock up 'the block'... What do you reckon 'Magic Maple' or 'DS Douglas Fir'? One thing that puzzles me a bit though, is why it would be needed if the internal gun travel lock was adequate enough for negotiating rough terrain, why would a support be needed when parked or being transported? Hmmm! Thanks again David.

Whilst the placing of the 'Tiger Guts' carries on, let us turn our attentions to 'Tracks'!
With many AM manufacturers out there in Tigerland producing the 'workboots' for the Tiger 1, choices are varied, and often for personal or aesthetic reasons. For me a crisp set of workable 'dead' tracks with a link count as close as possible to the actual vehicles run is my choice.
I know that I have come over as a Friulmodel dissenter of late, due to dissatisfaction with the link count being way short often (I think this is due to the movement in the track due to the track pin holes having rather a roomy fit! Or perhaps mould deterioration with my sets? Some looked crisper than others that appeared rather soft!) Which either means pushing the idler back beyond its operational confines, or dropping far to many links, in order to get the sag from the sprocket to gently curve onto the third roadwheel. Ah Well... At least they are metal and easily blackened and the contact surfaces can be polished! I will keep 'sampling' the and fiddling about with the pin to link mating to see if I can boost the link count... But with so many other options available... Lets have some 'Track Tapas' for starters...



Tasty morsels all in their own right!
Whilst we have covered all the resin options
available, previously in this saga, I have not yet looked in depth at the Styrene Injection Moulded offerings. These AFV Club, and Modelkasten's remarkable sets.
First up the AFV Club take on workable tracks.
This two piece track system for the Tiger 1, come in two backs already removed from the sprue, with very little flash or clean up needed. One small area of concern is the mould's pin ejector marks on the inside surface of the link... Though this sanded out rather easily, and are not as deep as they look. At around £10 these are really worth the money, and quite quick to put together.
All that is required is a dab of liquid cement on the area that takes the jointing section with the guide horns, then squeeze together whilst fitting the next jointing part into the back of the ling you are completing, before placing this onto the next link and continuing the process... But don't get to giddy, and complete a full 94-96 link length, leave it a couple short, as it is easier to add links without compromising the tracks rather than removing links!




Rather nifty eh? And they articulate very nicely, not dissimilar to some of the resin sets! Another tiny concern on these tracks though is, with the links only being joined in the central area between the guide horns, they do 'flex' at either side quite a lot. But as long as you are relatively gentle with them, this should not be too much of an issue!
Next up Modelkasten, and their version of the injection moulded workable track!

These little wonders come still attached to sprues, though the attachment points are very fine and are easily and quickly cleaned up.
As you can see the track links come one one 'branch' with the pins and guide horns incorporated upon another (the pins are ready mounted on their own unique applicators, four for the sub assemblies, and an individual one for track length assembly! Trick eh?) One small down side is the separate guide horns... I can hear the groans of Tiger modellers everywhere who have ever had to affix the spare track ones from DML Tiger 1 kits! Though these horns from Modelkasten, do affix easier, and with the correct asymmetry on the profile (a softer gradient upon the inside vertical face) they do sit a lot better than the DML version, and up to now are extremely tough for such a small separate part!
Within the sturdy box you get a 'jig' for assembly of the five link sub lengths, that makes construction extremely easy.
Lay the links into the bed of the jig.

insert the four applicator mounted pins on either side.

The very slightest dab of cement.

And then when you have completed, 18, five link runs, use the singly mounted pin applicator to make up your track length.
Remember to make up to a 'fitted' length of around 93-95 depending upon track fit when fitting to the vehicle.

Then it is time to get seriously 'horny' ... This may take some time!

With all this done, it is time to perhaps have a look at how they all sit upon the sprockets and idlers!







Well mull it over chaps! Something fro everybody's pocket and personal taste... My favourites you ask? Masterclub and WWII Productions dainties!

Right I'll get back ASAP with the Tigers...

Cheers Phil.
scratchmod
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Posted: Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 03:23 AM UTC
Hey there Phil.

Wow that was a very nice update, educational I might add. The AFV and MK tracks look to be a lot of work, but they do look very good when done.
I also noticed in the line up that the tracks all vary in size, track width. Are your two favorites the more accurate tracks, or simply for to assembly and fit reasons.

Fabulous review and SBS Phil.

Cheers
Rob
www.scratchmod.com

Wierdy
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 10:31 AM UTC
Hello Phil and everybody
First off some points about travel gun support (again) After our 'research' it became obvious that this piece of wood is typical for lots of late tigers and king tigers, even though the image provided by Grant (Vanhall) is described as "unique" in TIC II.I believe it is time for manufacturers to say their word.
As for the base for wounded tiger...Wow!!! A very nice idea not only for SPzAbt 101 but for many other units on both sides of the conflict as well as modern era AFVs.
The track sets reviewed...If we talk about their highs and lows in my country the ones from AFV Club are only a little cheaper than MasterClub set while MK's are much more expensive Anyway I'd give my vote for MasterClub because they don't have pin marks and flash like AFV Club set, there is no need to glue every single horn and the pins are handed which provides natural look and reliability to the whole track run. That's my choice!!!
Cheers to you all and let your modelling dreams come true
hedorah59
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Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 11:37 AM UTC
Great comparison of the AM tracks, I never realized there were so many choices!
Wierdy
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Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 08:45 AM UTC
Hey there Phil .
Wanted to ask which particular set of MasterClub bolts have you used to fix side skirts.How's your progress with those awesome Orange fire-extinguishers and which of the two sets of track pins is better?
This link might be interesting for tiger builders
http://www.panzerbasics.com/index_files/90-john/john-01.htm
Hope to see your 'progress report' very soon .
barkmann424
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Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 10:35 AM UTC
Good evening everybody! Is everyone warm enough?

Hi Rob! Thanks for the pointers on the sub-coats, I have been dabbling with a bit of your 'Wreck Alchemy' techniques... More about that later On the track choice, I prefer the MasterClub sets, due to the articulation, their accuracy, (the pins that join the links are 'handed' with the cir-clip/split ring in one bag, and the forged head in another bag) they do take a little time to put together... But no more than Friuls do. With regards to the WWII Production sets... These are very close in detail to the MasterClub offerings (albeit without separate pins) but the wonder of them is the assembly time, due to the ingenious 'click together' design... If I remember correctly, they took less than a couple of hours! Any more Big Cats due under the wreckers hammer soon?

Hi Paul! Great to hear from you! On the subject of Trackpins, there is not much to split an opinion on the Adlers Nest and Fukuya sets, the Adlers Nest ones appear slightly finer, but not by much. I have not yet put together an Orange Hobby Tetra Extinguisher, but will get on it this weekend when things on the work projects have quietened down a little.
The Hex Bolts from MasterClub were the 0.8mm set I believe (I will have to check!) Grant put me onto MasterClub's Resin solutions, and I must say I am mightly impressed, hopefully they will develop and release more Tiger bits and pieces. The bolts really do attach the skirts well, and add that little extra 'crispness' to boot!
The link you have included is fantastic... I really hope he goes on and completes the hull. You are spot on with it being a good reference for Tiger modellers, the detail incorporated, even in 1/1 scale is mind boggling. My favourite parts are the spare track clamps... I must see if I can get hold of some, they would look great in the vestibule for my coat collection! Oh I managed to find this... It is another 'ad-hoc bloc', the image is taken from 'Culver & Feist's' Tiger "50th Anniversary" by Ryton Publishing, It is on page 222 and is captioned as a Tiger of the s.S.Pz.Abt.503 on the way to Normandy. Looks like another one straight from the showroom in Kassel!



Hi Kirk! Thanks for the thumbs up on the track comparison, there does seem to be a plethora of sets available for the Tiger 1 early and late. The only ones I have ommitted are the Karaya sets, the pin marks really put me off. Thanks again Kirk.

No here are my first attempts at 'Tiger Torture' with the hairspay and salt methods...
This is the firewall from an Early Academy Tiger, I am awaiting delivery of some more AM internals from CMK, and a reply over a trade enquiry from a Photo Etching Manufacturer. So this is purley a test piece

Here is the FW with it's split paintjob of Ivory and Red Oxide, and the soon to be scorched area in brown... With a liberal coating of 'Future', ready for the subsequent layers.

With the Hairspray and Salt added, I could not find any Table Salt, so I had to use 'Ground Pink Himilayan Rock Salt'!!! Healthy eating eh?

When the Hairspray and Salt application had dried, a light cloudy pattern of Vallejo 'Off White'#70820


Than an application of patches of Vallejo's Cavalry Brown #70982 and Hull Red #70985, were put down.

Then a brush and some 'neat Vodka' (not really... Warm water!) and 'Rob's your Uncle'... I am very impressed, I must say Rob, it is such a simple technique, rather enjoyable, and it gives great results! Cheers mate! I'll bet it looks better on Olive Drab though?




Right I'm off to the drawing board lads! Back ASAP...

Thank you all kindly... Cheers Phil.
panamadan
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Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 12:29 PM UTC
Mmmm-'Ground Pink Himilayan Rock Salt' he says in a Homer Simpson voice...
Dan
ElRata
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Posted: Friday, July 23, 2010 - 06:37 PM UTC
Hello from Finland, awesome thread ! Nothing to add, waiting for more and drewling as you go on...

Two links of a finnish builder who is making 1:4 King Tiger form steel! everything from scratch everything steel..

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/malli_7324/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQo6lyEY1qc

barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 08:19 PM UTC
Hello out there!

A day of rest... And Tiger wrestling! Better late than never eh?

Hi Dan! " Mmmm-'Ground Pink Himalayan Rock Salt' he says in a Homer Simpson voice..." You are absolutely correct, a serious modelling deviation! I self administered a good dose of 'Ralph Wiggum, by The Bloodhound Gang' followed by a 5mg spoon of 'coarse salt' ... The method is looking better already!

Hello Teemu! Thanks for the awfully nice comments, and those awesome links... I wish my path in life had been precision engineering sometimes, especially when you see this kind of skill. Jaw dropping stuff!

Right a small update then. I am still waiting for the brass tread-plate, and the CMK sets , so I went to the books and web, in order to find anything on the later interior layout of the 44' Tigers... And there is not much, 'Jentz and Doyle's DW to Tiger 1 has the best clues to the stowage racks, that populated the 'shelf' above the turret ring, as well as the turrets mechanisms for the turrets traverse and gun elevation. A real lot of items that were stowed upon the turrets interior wall have been removed by this point, (unless the Saumur Tiger, has been gutted , whilst sat in Northern France?) there appears to be very little conduit and mountings at all compared to say, the earlier produced Bovington and APG Tigers. To me it looks as though these 'bins' that populate the lower turret interior took most of the previously wall stored items!
So it was of to the cutting mat, with some stock styrene sheet, rod and strip, for an attempt to try and replicate these later additions to the 'minimalist' Later Tiger Interior!







Now on the back 'shelf' in DW to Tiger 1, there are a couple of images that show smaller compartments, for what looks like 'episcope' components etc, but I am not sure if two or three differing patterns are fitted between the main guns counterbalance cylinder and the escape hatch? ...David? As you can see the Verlinden kit is anything but comprehensive! So a lot of very visible smaller detail has been added, whilst trying to keep it 'through the hatch' yet detailed enough to show a 'light destruction,!







A real lot of interior details can be seen through the open hatches, as with all open, the interior is well lit. In keeping with the fire that '211' was part gutted with, I have tried to show the spent shell case basket, as partly burnt. For this I rolled out some 'Green Stuff two part Epoxy' to a very thin depth, and impressed a piece of cloth into both surfaces, leaving the putty to cure for an hour, it was then 'torn' from the rolled out piece and formed onto a brass tube frame armature, to give a sort of 'grilled' remnants look to the remaining shreds of cloth!



Okay then back onto a little more detailing of the main gun and it's ancillaries, then we should be reaching for some paint in earnest in the near future eh?

Cheers for the continuing interest folks and friends... Cheers Phil.
Byrden
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Posted: Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 11:16 PM UTC
You're right, there was very little on the walls in a Late Tiger.
The MP40 was stored by the escape hatch.

David
jimz66
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 01:35 AM UTC
Great work Phil, how did you make the Zimmerett for the base? Looks freaking awesome!
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 02:33 AM UTC
Hi Phil. Thought it was time to have a read of this brilliant thread again. Still as inspiring as ever. I enjoyed the track comparisons. Have to agree with the masterclub tracks assessment. I got a set for the initial Tiger ( review here), and they are probably the nicest aftermarket tracks Ive seen. Funnily enough I got a set of the AFV Club tracks for my late Tiger. Thanks for the tips.
scratchmod
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 08:36 AM UTC
Just getting caught up on this Phil. The turret and especially the gun breech and remains of the basket look fantastic.
The practice ire wall looks awesome, and like I said it is easy and fun to do.So now you know why I am addicted to the wrecks.
Looking forward to you doing the actual model with this technique. I will be doing a similar technique on my T69II soon.

Rob
www.scratchmod.com
GewoonWouter
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 08:56 PM UTC
Hi Phil

Wouter here (MilMod )

Nearly missed this blog out...man, it's a huge build but your kitties look stunning...keep on rollin' mate

And thx for linking to this one, since I'm gonna order me some MasterClub initials...

grtz
vanhall
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Posted: Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 08:07 PM UTC
Top paint job on the interior Phil. Hope you can get your camera in those hatches for us when it's all finished.

Grant.

PS: Do you know if any AM makers do a 16ton jack?
barkmann424
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Posted: Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:32 PM UTC
Hello everybody!
The weekend is here! Now I just have to locate the workbench

I have mainly been reading up (okay looking at pictures! ) of the Tigers innards. Very scant references and many modifications along the way, are making this a tricky task indeed... Though not as tricky as some other puzzles I have been up against recently!
Also with the treadplate failing to materialize, I have had to re-order, thanks to Histortex Agents, always the modellers least remembered friend, a good stock of Abers treadplates will be on the doorstep very soon!

Hi David! Thanks for the link to the MP bracket. That must be what attaches to the welded strip in my Saumur references? I am starting to ponder about the reason for the removal of most of the turrets interior wall mounted stowage was either crew snagging, or the items becoming dislodged when in combat? Do you know of any internal images of the Kubinka Tiger, maybe this holds another piece of the jigsaw? Thank you as ever for your insights David.

Hello James! Thank you ever so much for the extremely kind comments. The Zimmerit was mixed using the original recipe... Without the sawdust! It was done to slake my own inquisitiveness about it really, and for a little research project It involves a 1/2 scale turret side, lots of coloured paints and some bushes! The pattern was 'raised' using a spatula (more in keeping with the Mantlets pattern) rather than a 'gear' (I have not been able to convince a scrap dealer to part with one yet, for less than a couple of quid. I think I will have to construct one from wood!

Hello there Frank! Great to hear from you, thank you for your comments, as always very uplifting to get praise from such an accomplished modeller such as yourself. I have been poring over your T34 dio, exquisite! Those bricks have been noted and will be used in an Elsdorf Tiger scene at some point in the future. Cheers .

Well Hello there Rob! I think the praise should be directed more towards yourself for the excellent SBS's that you have provided on your site... You have done all the hard work for us, embellishing us all with a very enjoyable and effective set of techniques, that certainly do the job! I am really looking forwards to getting some more paint onto this cat...

Greetings Wouter! Good to see you, how is the #6600 coming along? I have not had much chance to 'mess' with mine yet, but it sure is a beautiful, and extensively researched kit. Don't worry about the wheels coming off this Tigerfest, I have a few more to come yet... All in the name of Zimmerit research!

Hello Grant! Are you still being tortured by the scorching weather, or is it 'bailing out' season in Groningen now?
Perhaps I could procure one of those medical camera jobbies? That would certainly get where the sun don't shine (in a Tiger of course!), and I don't mean the North West of England! Any Tigers straining at the leash to be built recently?
Hmmm! 16 tonne Jack? Does Aber cover it in there 3-1 heavy German Jack Fret #AB35A19? They include the 20 and the 15!


Good to hear from you mate!

Right I'm off to have a mid-life crisis... And build some tanks!


Cheers Phil!
vanhall
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Posted: Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 01:40 AM UTC
Hi Phil,

Oh Doh! is me.. I really meant a 15ton
I was getting 15 ton Jack mixed up with 16 ton John(ny Cash)

The 'construstionworker' holidays have just started here, so of course El Scorchio has going into hiding until they're over.
Two more weeks and I've got my holidays. So maybe then I'll be able to get some work done on my very very slow Tiger build; Tamiyas Mid;
My first putty zim job, with Tamiya Epoxy and zimspired by your work here:





The apron zim is from a Cavalier set (what I got from your good self).
It already had smoother texture/shallower rib, so I slapped it on.

I tried to copy this look:


No masterpiece but I'm pretty happy with it for a first...

Cheers, Grant.
panamadan
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Posted: Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 02:29 AM UTC
Looks great Grant! More Tigers!
Dan
Byrden
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Posted: Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 05:20 AM UTC
i am told that the Kubinka Tiger turret interior storage is the same as depicted in the Tiger Turret Manual, and reproduced in the book "DW to Tiger 1", except that there is a radio connection panel on the right wall and a couple of the boxes are therefore moved.

David
barkmann424
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Posted: Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 07:24 AM UTC
Evening all!

Woowee Grant! She's a corker mate! And a mid to, even better! With this beauty I think I may have to get some of the alt Tamiya mittels... Maybe, maybe.
You got me on the 16ton jack, I was searching for them for about an hour!
The Zimmerit does look great, and with your paint on top will look awesome. I know what you mean about the weather... I get back onto site, and the heavens open! Take care, and speak soon.

Hi Dan

Anything good and devilish on the Panamadans Turntable? I am currently listening to 'Flame Job'... And a 'Date with Elvis'!

Hello David! Thanks for the confirmation on the Kubinka Tiger's internals... Ah well back to the puzzles eh? I wonder what happened to '334' of the 3./s.SS.Pz.Abt.101 that was recovered from the Normandy campaign, and was 'evaluated' at Chertsey? This would perhaps bridge a gap in the interior evolutions, (this was an October build?) ... And must have been extensively documented, as '131' was? I expect that they ended up on the ranges eventually?

Okay I'll go and strike up the styrene folks...

Cheers everyone. Phil.
panamadan
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Posted: Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 01:47 PM UTC
Dan's been listening alot to Ganf of Four and Buzzcocks! Crazy '80's music!
Dan