god d...n it the firewall at work blocks the panzerarchive.de, will have to wait this evening...

god d...n it the firewall at work blocks the panzerarchive.de, will have to wait this evening...

By the way - I believe that Olivegrun is right color, but it was not used as a base one. Dunkelgelb was usualy used as base color.

Andrzej

Even stranger, there was apparently an order allowing the use of panzergrau to be used at the very end of the war, although there is no evidence that this was instigated (IIRC it was to be instigated in June by which the war was over.)

So what is the final word on the illustrations shown? Are the colors "flipped"? Without going out and buying the book, this is the most complete overview of a paint scheme to use as a reference to copy.

'mysterious 7'!

Wow, that's nice. who wants a build log 'mysterious 7'! soon I may have enough KT to do it

just kidding
spit

Thanks James for your input. So if I may ask, what is the 'mysterious 7'?

A mini campaign titled 'Octopus Camo' would cast the net a bit wider, leaving it open for other vehicles to be included. Could be nice.

John

Quoted Text

---

Even stranger, there was apparently an order allowing the use of panzergrau to be used at the very end of the war, although there is no evidence that this was instigated (IIRC it was to be instigated in June by which the war was over.)

---

I don't know how accurate that is, but I have seen it mentioned before. It would not be as strange as one might think though. During early 1945 (when this order was apparently made) much of the fighting was defensive, and in built-up areas. In that environment, Panzer Grau would have been a sensible colour choice.
Indeed, Colonel John Frost remarked, when the 2nd Parachute batalion took up position around the Arnhem bridge, that their (woodland) camouflage of the Dennison smocks was wrong for the urban environment that they were fighting in.
Also reference the Berlin Camouflage of the Britishs AFV's in Berlin during the 70's. Large blocks of White, Grey and Black(ish).


Henk

I also know the story that the guy on the picture in my post is a crewmember from this tank several years later. I got a picture of him as he sits on the radio operators hatch.
I`ve also the information that the Tiger was there till the 60s.
In the Trojca King Tiger Book is a pic of the tank which was taken from the right side from the highway beneath. But there you can`t see the camo...

olds98

Regards using Panzer Grau if no other colour was available, does that mean that there were ready stocks of Panzer Grau (as left over from before 1943), which were kind of 'kept in reserve', or were new stocks to be made up? Which leads to the next question, why exactly were the stocks of Dunkel Gelb, Braun and Grun running low? Lack of pigment?

Quoted Text

---

In the Trojca King Tiger Book is a pic of the tank which was taken from the right side from the highway beneath. But there you can`t see the camo...

olds98

---

And how exactly is that shot in the Trojca book? Under the tank or how?

I have a brilliant idea (not so crazy if you really think about for few seconds). This tank was in Germany right? We know the area (Kassel?). Do we know the name of the guy from the picture on the right side? He was told to be one of the crew members. Maybe he's still alive, if not maybe his children are around and they know something about this very tank (from histories of their father). Maybe one of our German colleagues could make a few phone calls, a small trip etc.

AOTRE - Armorama Octopus Team Research Expedition. What do you say

It's not so crazy.
spit

Just after the end of the war, Heinz Wilms of 3./511 found a knocked out Tiger II from his unit. The Tiger was destroyed in the final days of the war and driver Rudi Kaiser was killed.

There can be only one... Highlander by James Blackwell Posted on Sep 14 2000, 10:11 AM

Don,

Heres a slightly reworked copy of the post I put up on July 19 that Cran mentions above - what do you think? I feel they are all one and the same vehicle we are seeing.

Whether this was a factory applied scheme and there were others done in a similar look or it was just a single creative crew livening up a green basecoated Tiger with some yellow is the big question, but short of new photos turning up its only speculaion either way as the 'octopus' scheme shot on p.142 and 454 of "TIC 1" are actually the same Tiger as far as I am concerned.

I have a feeling we first thrashed this one out very early on here or on another board (TL1 or AFVN late 98/early 99) and we came to the conclusion that Schneider was having an each way bet on the one vehicle by putting it in both sections and that the p.454 shot was simply a later view of the one on p.142 seen KO'd near Kassel?

Note for example the MG spall near the ball mount, MG barrel at same angle, the matching 'octopus sucker rings', gun locked in same recoil position, same late (rare-ish) double waffle pattern track for the 18 tooth spkt., late fender bracing, bell mantlet, "U"-shaped rain guard over the gunner's sight, missing cupola hatch, background hills and road etc., are all too similar to be coincidence. Though of interest the LHS "U" bolt has been souvenired and one of the turret track hooks broken off.

Its also the subject of the 3rd last colour plate by Restayn in "TIC 1" where it is captioned as 510 though its shown only in red primer in the first Ed. In the revised copy just out, this is the one col. plate he has redone...and sadly still got wrong - its now shown in red and brown with no yellow! The first version was in direct opposition to the text on p.9, where its claimed they (ie. 510) "...only had the red anti-corrosion primer with wide green-olive curves with paint brush size dots of the same colour", yet the second attempt while commendable and now backing the text up doesn't match the one known colour photo taken of it which shows green with yellow.

The 511 (502 re-numbered on Jan 5 1945), camo info on the 8 Tiger IIs 3.Kp. they picked up in March is similar, though says on p.5 "The Tiger IIs received directly from the factories at the end of March 1945 did not get any markings. Due to the lack of the yellow-olive primer they only had the anti-corrosion coating. In order to obscure this treacherous colour, the crews painted broad green-olive wavy stripes on the tank and added brush-sized spots." Based on the photo this looks dubious info too.

While Restayn opts for red/yellow then red/brown approach, Peter Sarson goes for the correct green and yellow in the New Vanguard Tiger II. I personally can only make out 2 colour tones not 3, so it seems Schneider may be a little out in his description and Restayn in his interpretations.

The original colour shot I mentioned above is floating around somewhere (which I'm sadly yet to find...anyone...scan please?) showing it in the green/yellow livery.

Other shots of it I've found of it so far are in the following;

p.181 of Klein & Kuhn's "Tiger - The History of a Legendary Weapon" showing it from the RHS (FWIW claimed to be "3./511" in the caption with a former tanker from the unit it belonged to in front of it just after the war) which is a fairly solid clue to ownership...

Plus p.36 of a Jap Tank Mag Special; "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File Vol.1" from '93 shows it from the Front LHS (the same pic is on p.127 of "GP17" and p.96 "German Military Vehicles in Photographs (1)" - Groundpower Special Issue Feb.'98 too).

Also AFV News Vol.25/1 Mar-Apr 1990 has a fuller view of the swastika on the nose shot (ref. p.454 "TIC 1"), on its cover. The original US Signal Corps shot of it according to Bill "Last of the Panzers" Auerbach on p.9 of this issue was; "One of the bigger panzers abandoned off the autobahn near Kassel, Germany."

Bill also mentions bumping into the guy who took the earlier b&w & colour shot of it in 1946 while at a militaria show in the US a few years back, and says;

"For those interested, the vehicle is overall dark green with cream colored stripes. The cream may be a weathered sand color but I'm not sure; the vehicle burned after being hit and the turret side is rusted. Interestingly enough, an orange outlined skull-and-crossbones is visible in the color photo in the middle of the glacis plate."

As per New Vanguard No.1 "Kingtiger", 3.Kp. of 510 and 3.Kp. of 511 received their Tiger IIs from the Henschel factory on March 31 1945 and had their battles on April 1st at Kassel where Henschel was located. So it is toss a coin time again but from the K&K info I'd personally be hedging towards 3/511 pending anything definitive.

Mirko's currently building/built this one for Euro, so now hes back from his holidays he may be able to shed more light on its true identity and knowing how deep he digs...and he may even have more shots or other info...maybe even the colour pic??

Has anyone got any other shots of it (or any other Tiger in this scheme for that matter) in other refs they can think of to help complete the picture?

JB

Short history of this Tiger II...... by Mirko Bayerl Posted on Sep 14 2000, 1:48 PM

Hi

This Tiger,including 6 other were picked up by ca . 50 "Panzersoldaten" in late March 45 at Werk Mittelfeld.They marched south of Kassel-attached to the 326 V.G.D. and should support their own troops at Fritzlar.The first fight at Werkel they destroyed about 9 Shermans.They had to give up Werkel,because of heavy american Ari-fire. Later they moved back direction Kassel and this Tiger II was given the order to secure the Autobahn .It had a very strategic position with good views to west and south.It was standing on a crossroad near a bridge over the Autobahn. It would have been an impossible task for the american tanks to destroy it-if not a german civilian had guided the Sherman tanks into a ambush against the tiger from behind. From a near distance the Shermans knocked it out. The commander of this unit-acctually-the 3.Komp/511 was an Oberlt.Hermann Helpup. The Tiger is the very last version with probably the armored plates over the cooling air intake and four (or three) bent plates for the track tension wire on the left round air outlet.It also had - as all the last Tiger II - the tranport tracks from the factory. I have another shot of it from a long distance,and all the other mentioned pics.I dont have the color-pic of it ,i am still waiting!!!!! If this Tiger had the Green or Yellow as basecolor-only God knows-or Cran,or James-I dont! I have seen other pics from the very last units and they all shows the "standard ambush" pattern. To my knowledge this is the one and only Tiger II with this Cammo-who knows?

Best Regards Mirko