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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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KingTiger (Octopus scheme) colors?
tjkelly
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 04:38 AM UTC
Good day all -

Have finished building DML's King Tiger (kit 6254) and was thinking of painting it in an Octopus Scheme. Have Model Master Panzer Dunkelgelb and Panzer Olivgrun to use, was wondering if those two colors are appropriate for this scheme?

Also, would the lower hull and road wheels be Dunkelgelb or Olivgrun? Have seen other models with either, just curious.

Thanks, appreciate the help with this one.

Cheers -

Tim
Jamesite
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 04:51 AM UTC
Olivgrun base with dunklegelb disruptive camo is the correct colour scheme.

The roadwheels should all be dunklegelb.

Interestingly, the camouflage pattern seems to differ underneath the side fenders on the one photographed Tiger B in this scheme which may be something you want to consider if painting that particular tank.

James
Jupiterblitz
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 04:52 AM UTC
Hello Tim,

I am not sure, if your Olivgrün might be the absolute correct color, as the color used was Dunkelgrün (Dark Green).

But I think, that does not matter very much, as the green tone differed in the last months and weeks of the war.

The color applied had to be mixed with thinner based on petrol, which was more than tight.


"Also, would the lower hull and road wheels be Dunkelgelb or Olivgrun?"

The base coat of late production Tiger II was Dunkelgrün.
spitfire303
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 07:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The roadwheels should all be dunklegelb.
James



Well, it could be possible if the subcontractor had some older wheels or the factory stock was old. If the base coat is green, everything is green road wheels included.

spit
bizzychicken
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 08:25 AM UTC
THe last KT got what ever was available at the time, most were shoed with transport tracks as Skoda had been over run by the Red Army
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 02:10 PM UTC
Or.... we wait for the color photograph to be published.

But one thing indeed strikes me as extremely peculiar, and that is the flipped colors under the Schürzen.



tjkelly
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 10:20 PM UTC
James - Thanks for the advice, will move forward with those colors. It's a good sized kit, so hopefully won't take more than a couple of bottles for the base color.

Marco - I thought it may be a darker green than olivgurn, but wasn't sure. Will have to use what I've got here, as I don't have ready access to a hobby shop, and am too impatient to wait on the mail.

Spit, Geraint and Herbert - Thanks for the advice as well, always a pleasure to learn a few of the ins & outs of these vehicles, makes the hobby that much more interesting and fun!

Thanks all for looking and commenting! Hope to have a few in-process photos up soon.

Cheers -

Tim
Jamesite
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 10:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, it could be possible if the subcontractor had some older wheels or the factory stock was old. If the base coat is green, everything is green road wheels included.

spit



However, side pics appear to show a lighter colour:




leading to this interpretation:






Sorry these pics come a bit late for you spit.


Quoted Text

Or.... we wait for the color photograph to be published.

But one thing indeed strikes me as extremely peculiar, and that is the flipped colors under the Schürzen.



Does a colour photo actually exist? Love to see it if so.

The flipped colours are wierd, most plausible answer being it had a different coat of paint before schurzen and octopus were added.

Here's a close up:


The colour only seems to actually 'flip' at the front corner, further along it is just different under where the schurzen were mounted.
Could this be factory camouflage, its certainly hard edged, was this painted behind the schurzen. I see no 'dot'' disruptive colours though.
To me its the same colours but a different pattern (green base, yellow disruptive, green 'swirls').
Perhaps this was an ealy (mis)interpretation of Octopus that was painted over? Seems strange to do it twice though?

What are your thoughts?

James


Note: All images posted for discussion purposes only
Jupiterblitz
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 10:49 PM UTC
Well, I think there were more than one octopus camoed Tiger.

I wouldn't reduce the reference character especially of this camo scheme to a few photos only.

IMO there was not THE Tiger II with this scheme, there were variations of the octopus camo.

If you look closer to the graphics shown here, the Tiger tank(s) with yellow road wheels are not of late production e.g. they have got drice sprockets with nine teeth instead of eigthteen (and some more features...)

Think of the initial production Tiger II (P) issued by CyberHobby.

Each of these five tanks had different schemes which looked quite similarly - though they were produced all in one and were deployed to the same unit...
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 11:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, I think there were more than one octopus camoed Tiger.

I wouldn't reduce the reference character especially of this camo scheme to a few photos only.

IMO there was not THE Tiger II with this scheme, there were variations of the octopus camo.

If you look closer to the graphics shown here, the Tiger tank(s) with yellow road wheels are not of late production e.g. they have got drice sprockets with nine teeth instead of eigthteen (and some more features...)

Think of the initial production Tiger II (P) issued by CyberHobby - each of these five tanks had different schemes though they were produced all in one and were deployed to the same unit...



[COUGH]Waldemar Trojca[COUGH]

Okay, a bit about Trojca. He is really blessed with an incredible amount of imagination. Much of his work is fictional and exists only in his head.

Initial Tiger-B's were sent out in the basecoat of Dunkel Gelb, and were camouflaged in the field, thusly, variations in the schemes were abound.

But just check a couple of the later hard edge Tiger-Bs. Although there are subtle differences, the general pattern is all the same on all tanks.

Octopus camo did not exist in any variations.

Reason? The photographed tank, all pictures of the Octopus are one and the same Tiger-B.

This Tiger-B was produced in the last batch of 8 completed by Henschel at their Kassel plant and deployed to defend the nearby Autobahn.

Perhaps the 7 others also had Octopus, but we may never know.

This Tiger-B was abandoned by it's crew after they sabotaged it, check the gun it is in full recoil.

Also, about the final production runs of the Tiger-B. As Henschel utilized the FiFo method, so anything new supplied by subcontractors was put ahead of older stock, this meant that at the end, some very old stock was being used. Pictures show at least one turret at the production line after the plant was overrun that has a 15 mm thick loader's hatch.

Further there are turrets with and without the AA-ring. The single link tracks were not in great supply as the Skoda factory had been captured before Tiger-B production ceased. If you check, you will see that a lot of the final Tiger-B's, including this Octopus one, are fitted with transport tracks. The 18 teeth sprocket is the later style.

So, this is a very kind word of advice, don't base any references on anything Trojca has come up with in his mind.
Jupiterblitz
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Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 11:27 PM UTC
I just heart and read about the problems of Trojca's color pics.

"Octopus camo did not exist in any variations.

Reason? The photographed tank, all pictures of the Octopus are one and the same Tiger-B."


Are you really sure?

Look closer to the tank with the swastika on the frontal glacis plate. Its turret camo scheme on the left hand side is not identical with the tank you see here.



Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 12:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I just heart and read about the problems of Trojca's color pics.

"Octopus camo did not exist in any variations.

Reason? The photographed tank, all pictures of the Octopus are one and the same Tiger-B."


Are you really sure?

Look closer to the tank with the swastika on the frontal glacis plate. Its turret camo scheme on the left hand side is not identical with the tank you see here.



It is the same tank, look at the position of the tank, gun in recoil, foliage and pylons is the background.
Glacis camo also matches perfectly.

The photo from the front where the swastika has been painted on was taken some years after the war (and the other pics). I beleive in the 50's.
Note that the tow hook and turret lifting hooks are all missing.
By this time the paintwork is not nearly in the same condition anywhere on the tank and so is more difficult to make comparisons with.

Herbert, was not meaning to promote Trojca as a reference source, but was saying that the colours shown are likely correct given the evidence, in particular the side shots showing lighter roadwheels.
He incorrectly shows the vehicle with combat track anyway.

James
Kelley
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 01:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Look closer to the tank with the swastika on the frontal glacis plate. Its turret camo scheme on the left hand side is not identical with the tank you see here.



It is the same tank, look at the position of the tank, gun in recoil, foliage and pylons is the background.
Glacis camo also matches perfectly.

The photo from the front where the swastika has been painted on was taken some years after the war (and the other pics). I beleive in the 50's.
Note that the tow hook and turret lifting hooks are all missing.
By this time the paintwork is not nearly in the same condition anywhere on the tank and so is more difficult to make comparisons with.

Herbert, was not meaning to promote Trojca as a reference source, but was saying that the colours shown are likely correct given the evidence, in particular the side shots showing lighter roadwheels.
He incorrectly shows the vehicle with combat track anyway.

James


Ditto what James and Herbert said, Trojka's drawing are nice to look at, but I certainly wouldn't count on them for any accuracy issues.

James, yes there is a color photo, it has popped up on the web a few times several years back and it is not a fake. I have heard from one of the "Panzerwrecks" authors that they hope to include it in a future publication.

Mike
Henk
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 01:19 AM UTC
As a side note to this discussion, can I draw your attention to some possible copyright issues?

Please, accuracy not withstanding, don't scan and post whole pages from (copy righted ) books (or websites etc.) . The copy right notice on the pages is a bit of a give away. If you want to use a picture from a book, use just part of the page, and CREDIT the publication you got it from. That way, the publisher may see it as a bit of useful and free advertising.

Thank you
Henk
Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 01:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As a side note to this discussion, can I draw your attention to some possible copyright issues?

Please, accuracy not withstanding, don't scan and post whole pages from (copy righted ) books (or websites etc.) . The copy right notice on the pages is a bit of a give away. If you want to use a picture from a book, use just part of the page, and CREDIT the publication you got it from. That way, the publisher may see it as a bit of useful and free advertising.

Thank you
Henk



Appologies, These came from my reference archive, much of which I no longer no the original source. Have updated my post to state images are for discussion purposes only. I can happily take them down if deemed neccesary.

James
John_O
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 01:50 AM UTC
As exptected I'm following this discussion too considering my interest in everything (too) late. :-) So, if I get this right, the now famous KT picture is the only picture whatsoever of a German vehicle with the Octopus camo?

J
Jupiterblitz
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 07:17 AM UTC
"So, if I get this right, the now famous KT picture is the only picture whatsoever of a German vehicle with the Octopus camo?"

No, I have seen somewhere a photo of a driving Octopus during the late days of war.

First I thought it was in my references, but it does not.

I cannot remember anymore where this pic has been published.

"The photo from the front where the swastika has been painted on was taken some years after the war (and the other pics). I beleive in the 50's.
"


Ja, a pic of later years - good to recognize at the pylon in the background.

So I throw overboard my speculation about varied octo-schemes.

I know that unique standard camo schemes were applied by factory since August/September 1944, before they painted in the field by the crew as well as the FiFo-principle.

Maybe I forgot to mention that I have references about the Tiger II too....

A few things about this certain tank of sPzAbt 511 are new to me.

So I leave this discussion as I cannot add any new or proofed facts.


olds98
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 08:03 AM UTC
Good evening,

I got a pic from the other site of this tank.



The first sidskirt doesn`t match. Looks like it`s from another "Octopus" Tiger???

maybe it helps

Very interesting discussion by the way

olds98
bizzychicken
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 10:40 AM UTC
Does look like the camo does not carry on to the glacia well well ????????
Kelley
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 03:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Good evening,

I got a pic from the other site of this tank.



The first sidskirt doesn`t match. Looks like it`s from another "Octopus" Tiger???

maybe it helps

Very interesting discussion by the way

olds98


It doesn't match what?? As far as I know that is the only shot of the right side of the tank (unless the color shot is from this angle) all the other black and white shots are from the left side or the front. They are all of the same tank, including this one.

Mike
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 03:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text


It doesn't match what?? As far as I know that is the only shot of the right side of the tank (unless the color shot is from this angle) all the other black and white shots are from the left side or the front. They are all of the same tank, including this one.
Mike



I think this is not in dispute. The ammount of recoil and body angle match well. I think the point that olds98 is making is that the camo on the right front fender does not carry up onto the hull.

This could imply that the fenders were painted off the tank, or, more interestingly, that they were taken from another tank with the same camo spare fenders which also received this scheme.

Which is correct is up for speculation, but considering the fact that the camo scheme under the fenders does not, in some cases, match the hull, it would be interesting to guess at exactly what happened during this vehicles short life.

Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 09:56 PM UTC
This pic is new to me. Thanks for posting.

The disruptive pattern on the front schurzen does indeed appear to not continue onto the side of the tank.

To me this could well be in some way related to the different pattern underneath the schurzen on the left side of the tank.
Ralph makes the point that the schurzen were painted seperately. If this was true then you would expect the Octopus scheme would continue under the schurzen, which we know from pics of the left side is clearly not the case, implying that the schurzen were in position when the octopus scheme was painted, in order for the area underneath to be left in the 'original' camouflage.
He also makes the point that it could be from another Tiger B. This is plausible, as the tank had obviously lost some schurzen, and could have taken a replacement from a knocked out/abandoned Tiger of the same scheme (Herbert mentions 7 others possibly received octopus) before being abandoned itself. Alternately perhaps the schurzen was taken from a differently camouflaged Tiger and painted by the crew to match? Possible as the circles appear solid rather than hollow on this schurzen and differ from the rest of the tank?

I'm not sold on this yet though. To me the fact that there are discrepencies in camouflage related to the schurzen on both side hints that something is going on.

Any thoughts?

Herbert, do you know which angle the colour photo is of? Does it give any hint to the colours of the area underneath the schurzen? Or wether the front right schurzen has colour/pattern differences to the others next to it?

Enjoying this one, keep the ideas coming.

James
spitfire303
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 10:41 PM UTC
I have a brilliant idea (not so crazy if you really think about for few seconds). This tank was in Germany right? We know the area (Kassel?). Do we know the name of the guy from the picture on the right side? He was told to be one of the crew members. Maybe he's still alive, if not maybe his children are around and they know something about this very tank (from histories of their father). Maybe one of our German colleagues could make a few phone calls, a small trip etc.

AOTRE - Armorama Octopus Team Research Expedition. What do you say

It's not so crazy.

spit
Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 11:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have a brilliant idea (not so crazy if you really think about for few seconds). This tank was in Germany right? We know the area (Kassel?). Do we know the name of the guy from the picture on the right side? He was told to be one of the crew members. Maybe he's still alive, if not maybe his children are around and they know something about this very tank (from histories of their father). Maybe one of our German colleagues could make a few phone calls, a small trip etc.

AOTRE - Armorama Octopus Team Research Expedition. What do you say

It's not so crazy.

spit



Its not a rediculous idea, although how you would track them down im not sure.
Also i'm not 100% about how useful any info may be. Would tank crews be that informed about how the factory painted their tank?
Also after 60+ years, asking questions like 'what where the colours and pattern of the camouflage under the front left schurzen' would, i'm sure not get the desired answer!

I think our best hope lies around this colour pic. If it surfaced on the internet a few years ago could anyone track it down?
I had a go myself but turned up nothing.

James
olds98
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 11:51 PM UTC
here is a link which shows a part of the color pic:

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=3019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=330

The angle is from the right front. I think almost like on the pic where you can see the swastika painted in the front plate.

olds98
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