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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
Hosted by Darren Baker
1/35th Vietnam War era PACV
dobon68
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 08:11 AM UTC
I have posted this question over on model shipwrights as well but I thought someone here might know the answer, so I'm sorry if you feel this is the wrong place to post this.
I'm in the process of building Masterpiece Models 1/35th PACV, as you can see from the photos below I'm progressing well but I'm at the stage where I need to paint the interior of the cabin. Does anyone know what colour the interior would be? Is it the same green as the exterior or another colour?
I have found a few photos on the web but they are all exterior shots and I can't tell the interior colour from them.
Any help will be greatly received.
David

Progress shots






And hopefully what it will look like when I'm finished.

talib
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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 05:53 PM UTC
Hi David!

I found only one small pic of interior. It seems to be grey.



I recieved mine kit few weeks ago and started construction. Hope to show you my progress soon.


Anton

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Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 07:39 PM UTC
This is one of my all time favorite vehicle
Cant wait to see it finished
Keep us posted
dobon68
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Posted: Monday, August 17, 2009 - 10:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi David!

I found only one small pic of interior. It seems to be grey.



I recieved mine kit few weeks ago and started construction. Hope to show you my progress soon.


Anton




Anton,
I found that photo too but if you look at the windows it's a different set up to the model. If you look at the two photos they are different versions of PACV. I think the first photo and the model is the PACV on it first tour in 65 - 67 and the second photo from the second tour after they were refitted back in the States.
But I do agree with you about the interior colour and I think that's what I paint it.




Thanks for all the interest guys and I will keep you updated as it progresses.
Cheers
David
Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, August 17, 2009 - 12:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Anton,
I found that photo too but if you look at the windows it's a different set up to the model. If you look at the two photos they are different versions of PACV. I think the first photo and the model is the PACV on it first tour in 65 - 67 and the second photo from the second tour after they were refitted back in the States.
But I do agree with you about the interior colour and I think that's what I paint it.




Thanks for all the interest guys and I will keep you updated as it progresses.
Cheers
David


Second photograph is of a US Army ACV, not a US Navy PACV. Easiest way to tell is the dual machine gun tubs on the ACV and the single twin machine gun tub (same mount used on the PBR) on the PACV. I believe the US Army ACV was based on the larger SK-6, while the PACV was based on the SK-5.
dobon68
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Posted: Monday, August 17, 2009 - 07:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Second photograph is of a US Army ACV, not a US Navy PACV. Easiest way to tell is the dual machine gun tubs on the ACV and the single twin machine gun tub (same mount used on the PBR) on the PACV. I believe the US Army ACV was based on the larger SK-6, while the PACV was based on the SK-5.



Joe,
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I didn't realise that the Army had their own ACV I thought it was all just the Navy. But that does help explain something, I came across a website of a former OIC of a PACV during 65 - 67 and all the photos he had didn't have the walk boards on the sides and only a single .50 cal in the turret, so I guess the model and photo I posted are from the second tour of the Navy PACV after their refit which would explain the differences.
Cheers for the info.
David
Thatguy
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 04:17 AM UTC
The Army's ACV program is pretty obscure. There were a grand total of three craft ever in service, of which two were driven to destruction in Vietnam. The third craft is at the US Army transportation museum. They say it was an SK-5, but it is obvious a different variant from that of the Navy's PACV. You'll also notice on the ACV's hull there is a device on the right side of the cockpit. This is a modified M5 helicopter weapon system that was fitted to only one of the craft IIRC.

Also of note, and another reason to be wary of wikipedia, is that the "PACV" cockpit picture is taken from the Transportation Museum website, and is an ACV cockpit.
dobon68
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Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 12:14 AM UTC
I have been in contact with Roy Adair who was an OiC on the PACV during their first tour in Vietnam, I asked him some questions about the cabin layout and he very kindly answered them for me below is his reply.
I have posted this to help anyone else who maybe working on this model.

David - It is my pleasure to do what I can to help you with your project. A little background first. The US Navy had three PACV's for use in Vietnam. They were originally deployed in 1966 and I was a PACV OinC with that unit. At the end our our deployment in December 1966, all three craft and all the personnel were returned to the US. The craft were overhauled and modified and new crews were trained and subsequently redeployed to Vietnam for approximately two more years. From viewing the pictures of the model that you sent, it is the modified, later version that I just mentioned, not the one that I operated. The real giveaway is the deck planks on the exterior upper surface of the hull that allows people to more easily move about when outside the cabin. Another difference is that of the "puff port" located on the port and starboard sides of the hull...these were meant to allow air from inside the cushion to escape under the operator's control to help maneuver the craft at slow speeds. But now I will answer your questions in order:
1. The interior was the color gray
2. The "pilot" (not really a pilot, as that infers aircraft) or operator sits in the right seat and the radar operator/navigator sits in the left seat, looking forward. The picture of your model shows the radar scope on the right, which is incorrect.
3. The normal crew was 4: OiC, nav/radar, engineer, and gunner. Sometimes we would have an additional crewmember such as an assistant gunner or line handler. We could take maybe 2 or 3 passengers inside the cabin, but we did not have the passenger seats that are shown in your model, so passengers would just have to stand. Toward the end of our deployment we operated with US and Vietnamese Special Forces and each of the craft would be assigned a Vietnamese rifle squad. These personnel would ride on the exterior walkway, close up alongside the engine nacelle, and hang onto a handrail. This was before the extended deck were installed as you have on your model.
4. We did not have the helicopter style helmets. As I recall, only the gunner wore a helmet when manning the twin 50 in the turret, but it was just a regular helmet. I think I've seen pictures of the later crews wearing the helicopter style helmets, however. We all wore flak jackets.
5. As for the interior, I already mentioned that the radar should be moved to the left side and the instrument panel to the right. In the version that you have, the passenger seats are probably okay. In the center of the cabin, below the turret, there should be a stand for the gunner. I also see that you have a couple of M-60 machine guns and they would be mounted in the middle windows on both sides of the cabin. In our version of the craft, we had a table at the back of the cabin that ran the full width. The radio was mounted on the table and it also provided room for our nav charts and other paper work.
talib
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Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 12:24 AM UTC
David, hello!


thanks for sharing important info!

Now I'm going to make cabin without seats but with table
ouizel
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Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 10:11 AM UTC
The above two photos show different types. The one with the shark mouth (and as represented in the kit) is a Navy PACV, built in the UK and outfitted with GE engines Stateside. The lower picture is and Army ACV - a further development of the Navy PACV, but built in the US under license by Bell (I believe). The obvious differences are the rounded deck on the Navy version (with later addition of planking for walkways) verses the squared off armored outer hull on the Army ACV, in addition to the different window configuration as noted above.

Hope this helps some.
Havoc
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 04:34 AM UTC
Heya, David,

Any further progress on your PACV?

Also, a buddy of mine at my club says that some of the details on the kit are wrong... Any evidence to support or contravene this? Not having the kit just yet, I could not say one way or the other... someday, though!

No doubt, it is a long shot, but my Holy Grail kit has been one of these babies in styrene...in 35th scale, of course. Given the cost of plastic kits these days --- and this would certainly be a lot of plastic, the cost would probably be more than the resin kit!

Anyway, keep up the good work, David. Looking forward to your progress --- paint, crew, accessories, and base. And thanks a bunch for the details you provided via the actual PACV crewman --- an actual crewman must have been tough to track down!!

Lastly, though I have seen pictures of what I now know is the Army ACV, "back in the day,"I never quite put two and two together that they had their own, separate hovercraft... Gotta find out about this one! Very similar to the PACV (due to both vehicles' lineage no doubt).

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.


Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 05:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Lastly, though I have seen pictures of what I now know is the Army ACV, "back in the day,"I never quite put two and two together that they had their own, separate hovercraft... Gotta find out about this one! Very similar to the PACV (due to both vehicles' lineage no doubt).


Hi Johnny
You'll find some info about the use of PACVs and ACVs in Vietnam ( and a few pics as well) here :
http://www.warboats.org/StonerBWN/The%20Brown%20Water%20Navy%20in%20Vietnam_Part%202.htm

HTH
Frenchy
Havoc
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 06:57 AM UTC
Heya, Frenchy!

As always, you come through with the goods! Fascinating that the Army was operating such a vehicle, even for Vietnam. Bummer for that ARVN who got sucked into the fan... yow. Then again, speaking of oddities, the Ninth Infantry (Riverine) was something of an Army oddity, too!! Seems like the Marines should have been fighting in III and IV Corps and the Army might have been better-suited to fight in II and I Corps...

Great website, Frenchy --- be nice to see the LSSC's bigger brother, the STAB boast and the smaller, two engine Seal Tactical Assault Boat as well in kit form... Even a Boston Whaler would be cool! C'mon, Dragon, how 'bout some cool 35th scale Riverine kits --- it's been YEARS since the LSSC!!

I hope that you are well, amigo! Thanks, as always, for your help --- you ROCK, Frenchy! Have a good one, my friend!!

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.
seb43
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 07:39 AM UTC
Nice build
Never heard of resin kit for this vehicle.
Prize review etc, where can I find more information on this kit ??
Cheers
Seb
Havoc
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 07:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Never heard of resin kit for this vehicle.
Prize review etc, where can I find more information on this kit ??



www.masterpiecemodels.com is the manufacturer. You can buy the kit directly from them.

Good luck, Sebastian!!

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.
seb43
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 09:29 AM UTC
Thanks Johnny
Kind of expensive so fare
I will save money for this one
dobon68
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Posted: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 09:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Heya, David,

Any further progress on your PACV?

Also, a buddy of mine at my club says that some of the details on the kit are wrong... Any evidence to support or contravene this? Not having the kit just yet, I could not say one way or the other... someday, though!

No doubt, it is a long shot, but my Holy Grail kit has been one of these babies in styrene...in 35th scale, of course. Given the cost of plastic kits these days --- and this would certainly be a lot of plastic, the cost would probably be more than the resin kit!

Anyway, keep up the good work, David. Looking forward to your progress --- paint, crew, accessories, and base. And thanks a bunch for the details you provided via the actual PACV crewman --- an actual crewman must have been tough to track down!!

Lastly, though I have seen pictures of what I now know is the Army ACV, "back in the day,"I never quite put two and two together that they had their own, separate hovercraft... Gotta find out about this one! Very similar to the PACV (due to both vehicles' lineage no doubt).

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.




Johnny,
Thanks for the interest, I'm afraid I haven't done that much recently what with work, 2 year old twins and a presentation at a conference to prepare for!
I have done some work on the cabin area and scratched a radio to go in it, also working on the crew and trying to get them to fit in. I will try and get some photos up by the weekend.
As far as kit details being wrong the only things I have found have been the cabin interior which I'm trying to put right with the detail provided by Roy Adair. The outside seems ok to me but this is a second tour model with the upgrades such as walk boards and side puff ports. But even if I make it with mistakes hopefully there won't be too many rivet counters out there who can contradict anyway
Cheers
David
Havoc
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Posted: Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 01:14 PM UTC
Heya, David,

Thanks for the update! Yep, kids always come first, so say no more!!

I'm no rivet counter and from what I can see your build looks great thus far --- can't wait to see it progress. And thanks a bunch for the info from that PACV crewman... When I eventually get around to purchasing the kit, these details will be very helpful!!

No rush to answer, but I've got a few questions:
- was there a lot of clean up required on the kit before you could build (as in giant casting gates)?
- what is the seam detail like on the inflatable skirts?
- is the PE portion of the superstructure sturdy enough so that you can rest the roof ("overhead"?) upon the PE and have it look good without glueing it down? Or will you have to glue it? I ask this thinking about showing off the interior...

Looking forward to future pix when you find the time to work on your PACV, David! Good luck with work and the family!!

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.
dobon68
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Posted: Saturday, October 03, 2009 - 10:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


No rush to answer, but I've got a few questions:
- was there a lot of clean up required on the kit before you could build (as in giant casting gates)?


Johnny,
I didn't find it too bad getting rid of the casting plugs, they seemed to be in well thought out places and not too large, some may well have been cut off/down before packing anyway. The only bit that took time was cleaning out the gaps between the planks on the walkways.

Quoted Text


- what is the seam detail like on the inflatable skirts?


Here's a close up photo I hope this answers your question?


Quoted Text


- is the PE portion of the superstructure sturdy enough so that you can rest the roof ("overhead"?) upon the PE and have it look good without gluing it down? Or will you have to glue it? I ask this thinking about showing off the interior...


The PE cabin walls are 0.25mm thick and they do seem strong enough to hold the roof without gluing, they only thing is that it will take a bit of adjustment to get the roof sitting flat and snug with the walls.

Here are some more in progress photos




I have changed the position of the navigator and operator to their correct sides



I have removed the seating and added a bench for the radio and charts.
I still need to made a platform for the gunner to get up to the top position.
The interior will have a lot of ammo cans, some personal weapons and a few bits here and there.



I have scratch built a AN/URC-58 VHF radio and a big Thank You to Frenchy for providing the photos and dimensions for it.



I have also started work on the crew which are a mix of the gunner from a Tamiya PBR, Dragon helicopter crew and some resin heads and flak jackets. I am going to try making some headphones for the internal crew, the gunner up top will have a helicopter helmet. There will also be a 4th crew member inside but I haven't decided on his pose yet.





As far as a base goes I am undecided between it moving over water with plants/reeds everywhere or just coming onto the water off the ramp at their base with the ramp made of PSP?

Thanks for looking
David
dobon68
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 05:50 AM UTC
It's been a while since I've done any work on this beast. Masterpiece Models were going to do some corrections to the kit and I put it aside waiting for this. But sadly they have decided not to go ahead with this so I will have to try my best to fine the information and correct as I go.
I have had great help from Saúl García aka Sharkmouth. He has pointed out a few thing and let me have copies of a few photos that help the process.
So a little update.
I have smoothed over the rubber skirt as there was no texture on the real skirts.

I have cut the panniers down so they side lower as in the photos.

I have also been busy trying to get the roof and walls to it nicely onto the base, this is a real pain to get to sit correctly but I think I have finally got it to sit right.


I'm also going to use the Mark 56 turret from a Tamiya PBR 31 MkII with Eduard etch and RB barrels for the .50's.

There's still a long way to go but at least I've got started again.
Thanks for looking.
David
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 07:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have been in contact with Roy Adair who was an OiC on the PACV during their first tour in Vietnam, I asked him some questions about the cabin layout and he very kindly answered them for me below is his reply.
I have posted this to help anyone else who maybe working on this model.

David - It is my pleasure to do what I can to help you with your project. A little background first. The US Navy had three PACV's for use in Vietnam. They were originally deployed in 1966 and I was a PACV OinC with that unit. At the end our our deployment in December 1966, all three craft and all the personnel were returned to the US. The craft were overhauled and modified and new crews were trained and subsequently redeployed to Vietnam for approximately two more years. From viewing the pictures of the model that you sent, it is the modified, later version that I just mentioned, not the one that I operated. The real giveaway is the deck planks on the exterior upper surface of the hull that allows people to more easily move about when outside the cabin. Another difference is that of the "puff port" located on the port and starboard sides of the hull...these were meant to allow air from inside the cushion to escape under the operator's control to help maneuver the craft at slow speeds. But now I will answer your questions in order:
1. The interior was the color gray
2. The "pilot" (not really a pilot, as that infers aircraft) or operator sits in the right seat and the radar operator/navigator sits in the left seat, looking forward. The picture of your model shows the radar scope on the right, which is incorrect.
3. The normal crew was 4: OiC, nav/radar, engineer, and gunner. Sometimes we would have an additional crewmember such as an assistant gunner or line handler. We could take maybe 2 or 3 passengers inside the cabin, but we did not have the passenger seats that are shown in your model, so passengers would just have to stand. Toward the end of our deployment we operated with US and Vietnamese Special Forces and each of the craft would be assigned a Vietnamese rifle squad. These personnel would ride on the exterior walkway, close up alongside the engine nacelle, and hang onto a handrail. This was before the extended deck were installed as you have on your model.
4. We did not have the helicopter style helmets. As I recall, only the gunner wore a helmet when manning the twin 50 in the turret, but it was just a regular helmet. I think I've seen pictures of the later crews wearing the helicopter style helmets, however. We all wore flak jackets.
5. As for the interior, I already mentioned that the radar should be moved to the left side and the instrument panel to the right. In the version that you have, the passenger seats are probably okay. In the center of the cabin, below the turret, there should be a stand for the gunner. I also see that you have a couple of M-60 machine guns and they would be mounted in the middle windows on both sides of the cabin. In our version of the craft, we had a table at the back of the cabin that ran the full width. The radio was mounted on the table and it also provided room for our nav charts and other paper work.



this is interesting to say the least. But I gotta ask a couple questions about these "things!"

* we all heard about the Marines using them in I-Corps (I never saw such an animal). The Marines called the program a part of the "Dog & Pony Show", and I guess they were not used a lot.

* now I never knew that the Army ever used anything like that. Where did they use them? (I'm guessing in the Delta) Also what unit used them?
gary
Thatguy
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 07:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

* now I never knew that the Army ever used anything like that. Where did they use them? (I'm guessing in the Delta) Also what unit used them?
gary


Air Cushion Vehicle Unit (Provisional), attached to the 3rd Brigade, 9th Infantry Division and based at Dong Tam. The ACV Unit also adopted the unofficial moniker of the 39th Cavalry Platoon. More info here.
dobon68
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 08:01 AM UTC
Gary,
The US Navy PACV's were part of Task Force 116 this wesite has this to say
There were a total of (7) PACV's sent to Vietnam. Task Force 116 employed (3) experimental Patrol Air Cushion Vehicle (PACV). The craft operated in the Mekong Delta during 1966-67 as PACV Division 107. The (3) Navy PACV's (Chassis Serial #'s 004, 017, 018) were first deployed in 1966, brought back to the U.S., reworked, and redeployed to Viet Nam late in 1967.

During 1968 there were 3 separate PACV's deployed by the Army. They deployed to the Dong Tam area to work with the U.S. 9th Division.

Although able to move with great speed over shallow marshy areas, such as the Plain of Reeds, the PACVs proved to be too noisy and too mechanically sophisticated for riverine warfare in South Vietnam. The (3) Navy PACV's were finally turned over to the Coast Guard in San Francisco.
David
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 01:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gary,
The US Navy PACV's were part of Task Force 116 this wesite has this to say
There were a total of (7) PACV's sent to Vietnam. Task Force 116 employed (3) experimental Patrol Air Cushion Vehicle (PACV). The craft operated in the Mekong Delta during 1966-67 as PACV Division 107. The (3) Navy PACV's (Chassis Serial #'s 004, 017, 018) were first deployed in 1966, brought back to the U.S., reworked, and redeployed to Viet Nam late in 1967.

During 1968 there were 3 separate PACV's deployed by the Army. They deployed to the Dong Tam area to work with the U.S. 9th Division.

Although able to move with great speed over shallow marshy areas, such as the Plain of Reeds, the PACVs proved to be too noisy and too mechanically sophisticated for riverine warfare in South Vietnam. The (3) Navy PACV's were finally turned over to the Coast Guard in San Francisco.
David



that makes sense! The delta is where they'd have been at their best. Air cushioned anything needs a flat smooth surface to operate ontop of. That plus the fact that your riding ontop the thing with a bullseye painted on you kinda sends chills down my back! Just kinda looks looks like a "you can't miss me" target for an RPG or a 57mm recoiless rifle.
In I-Corps the comment often came up that as bad as things were up north it was always a lot worse in the delta (I never swam that good anyway, and hated the sight of a leech). I like my feet of dry ground
gary

P.S. reminds me of something else. I think it was in War Zone 2 or maybe 3 that actually brought is air boats like they used in Florida. Maybe a dozen or so, and they were all pretty much shot to pieces in no time.
Frenchy
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Posted: Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 10:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

P.S. reminds me of something else. I think it was in War Zone 2 or maybe 3 that actually brought is air boats like they used in Florida. Maybe a dozen or so, and they were all pretty much shot to pieces in no time.







Frenchy
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