Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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M777
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 06:28 AM UTC
I have contacted AFV Club via Hobby Fan. I can't find any information for contacting Hobby Boss. Their website no longer exists. I have also contacted Trumpeter.
I too have run into a manufacturer wanting me to provide the research, which I faithfully did(may be in for a resin T1E1 mine roller ). I'm sure that there is a modeller out there who can provide the reference material. Just look at Frenchy's collection.
I may also contact Verlinden.
abramstnkr
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 07:44 AM UTC
Hey so here's an example of companies listening to their customers.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/194616&page=2

PLEASE PLEASE click on the link and post your comments to the eduard website!!
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 08:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have contacted AFV Club via Hobby Fan. I can't find any information for contacting Hobby Boss. Their website no longer exists. I have also contacted Trumpeter.
I too have run into a manufacturer wanting me to provide the research, which I faithfully did(may be in for a resin T1E1 mine roller ). I'm sure that there is a modeller out there who can provide the reference material. Just look at Frenchy's collection.
I may also contact Verlinden.



If someone like you or other modellers don't provide the reference material how will model companies create the kit? Remember as well that what you are asking for is an operational piece of war fighting kit and OPSEC may come into play. A person in the service having access to tech manuals and images may be very hesitant to provide this information to a model company without any confidentiality agreement in place.

What is in it for the modeller to provide the images and information? Is the company going to pay the person for their information and images or is it just a generous offer by the modeller? Business is business.

The alternative is for the model company to fly an employee to a location where an M777 in on display and take images. I don't see too many people posting the location of M777 displays in advance.

The choices are limited for getting reference material for this the M777...U.S Army, USMC, Canadian Army, Australian Army...and on order for India and Thailand.

Don't get me wrong...I would like to see this kit too as the Canadian Army has used it in combat in Afghanistan. But, I recently had an excellent sit down with a mainstream model producer and model supplier and the explanation of how kits are selected for production was an eye opener and something us as modellers do not have a full understanding of.
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 09:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have contacted AFV Club via Hobby Fan. I can't find any information for contacting Hobby Boss. Their website no longer exists. I have also contacted Trumpeter.
I too have run into a manufacturer wanting me to provide the research, which I faithfully did(may be in for a resin T1E1 mine roller ). I'm sure that there is a modeller out there who can provide the reference material. Just look at Frenchy's collection.
I may also contact Verlinden.



If someone like you or other modellers don't provide the reference material how will model companies create the kit? Remember as well that what you are asking for is an operational piece of war fighting kit and OPSEC may come into play. A person in the service having access to tech manuals and images may be very hesitant to provide this information to a model company without any confidentiality agreement in place.

What is in it for the modeller to provide the images and information? Is the company going to pay the person for their information and images or is it just a generous offer by the modeller? Business is business.

The alternative is for the model company to fly an employee to a location where an M777 in on display and take images. I don't see too many people posting the location of M777 displays in advance.

The choices are limited for getting reference material for this the M777...U.S Army, USMC, Canadian Army, Australian Army...and on order for India and Thailand.

Don't get me wrong...I would like to see this kit too as the Canadian Army has used it in combat in Afghanistan. But, I recently had an excellent sit down with a mainstream model producer and model supplier and the explanation of how kits are selected for production was an eye opener and something us as modellers do not have a full understanding of.


There didn't seem to be any clearance for providing the physical specifications of the droid mounted on Merkava tanks.
gcdavidson
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 10:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I recently had an excellent sit down with a mainstream model producer and model supplier and the explanation of how kits are selected for production was an eye opener and something us as modellers do not have a full understanding of.



What was eye opening and what don't we have a full understanding of?
Trisaw
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 11:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text



If someone like you or other modellers don't provide the reference material how will model companies create the kit? Remember as well that what you are asking for is an operational piece of war fighting kit and OPSEC may come into play. A person in the service having access to tech manuals and images may be very hesitant to provide this information to a model company without any confidentiality agreement in place.



Not to be harsh or critical or offensive as I have nothing against the great model kits and quality from these foreign producing nations, but...

This is why I am surprised there aren't many U.S.A and Western companies making kits of their own military equipment. Western nations have the CAD, tech, blueprints, factories, and engineers in their own lands to make these kits too...we could use the jobs.

Oh, sure, labor and production is a lot cheaper in Asia, Russia, and Eastern Europe, but really, when the best kits and books of Western military subjects and vehicles come from overseas nations, some not even allies with the West several years ago, what OPSEC? I scratch my head at that one...

Then again, Asian and Russian companies are producing kits of their own indigenous military vehicles so I suppose OPSEC with their own military branches was taken care of.

redleg12
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 11:56 AM UTC
As a retired artillery officer, I am sure that there is not an OPSEC problem with the exterior dimensions of the M777.

The problem is it is a relatively new weapon and not a lot of material is public.

As for timing....the M198 came out in the early 80s and look how long it took for that styrene kit.

As an artillery modeler an M777 would be a welcome sight for me. But most mainstream modelers are not into artillery, especially towed artillery. It can be a limited market.

Ask any of the book writers...I had a conversation with Steve Zaloga and he lamented the hardest book to sell is artillery. You can talk tanks and HMMWVs and Strykers until you are blue in the face.....they are popular.

The list of un-produced styrene artillery for just the US is long.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm. At my age I have learned patience and realize there is plenty in the stash even without the M777....And not one tank in the stash either.

My two cents

Rounds Complete!!

Trisaw
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 12:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As a retired artillery officer, I am sure that there is not an OPSEC problem with the exterior dimensions of the M777.

The problem is it is a relatively new weapon and not a lot of material is public.

As for timing....the M198 came out in the early 80s and look how long it took for that styrene kit.

As an artillery modeler an M777 would be a welcome sight for me. But most mainstream modelers are not into artillery, especially towed artillery. It can be a limited market.

Ask any of the book writers...I had a conversation with Steve Zaloga and he lamented the hardest book to sell is artillery. You can talk tanks and HMMWVs and Strykers until you are blue in the face.....they are popular.

The list of un-produced styrene artillery for just the US is long.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm. At my age I have learned patience and realize there is plenty in the stash even without the M777....And not one tank in the stash either.

My two cents

Rounds Complete!!




Sometimes...and I mean "sometimes"...if one is extremely lucky and wanting, one could contact the actual maker of the M777.

Some of these companies have and may be willing to sell a scale model of the actual weapon or put you in contact with the model maker. Do be forewarned that such custom models often cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. HOWEVER, I do believe quite a few 1/35 modern resin and styrene model kits did derive from these custom-built models for defense companies. I did this once before to learn that there was a resin model of a modern AFV not even produced in a kit, but the price was very steep. Many years later, that AFV came out in plastic.
tanknick22
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 12:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

As an artillery lover I would totally want to see an M777. While they are at it a styrene M119 too. Soooo...as soon as you finish the scratch build then it will come.

Between AFV and Bronco this has been a big year for US artillery. Hopefully next year will be better.....hopefully soon

Rounds Complete!!



OK you dropped a new one in my lap. What's an M119? I'd like to see somebody like Dragon do the M110 and M107 to be followed by the M109 series. Of course we still can't get anybody to make an M56 Scorpion in 1/35th scale


the M119 is a light weight 105mm used my the us army and austrailia it is based on the L118/l119 used by the brits
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I recently had an excellent sit down with a mainstream model producer and model supplier and the explanation of how kits are selected for production was an eye opener and something us as modellers do not have a full understanding of.



What was eye opening and what don't we have a full understanding of?



As this thread is already going off tangent we might as well continue. Graeme, as you are someone who is very familiar with the modelling industry it might not be any new info for you. But for me sitting down face to face with an owner of a hobby company who both sells and produces kit on a global scale and getting the full low down on how kit research and marketing is conducted, how development and production is outsourced, copyright issues, the production cost of a kit versus the retail price, and the reasons why it is done that way was interesting and eye opening.

With the major Asian model producers scrambling every day to challenge and undercut their competition the ability to come up with kits beyond the WWII German standard is narrowed considerably. If there is any whiff of a company producing a unique kit someone else will likely also announce it even if they do not intend to produce it....any attention, good or bad, is worthwhile attention...and it did not take Confucious to say that.

LeoCmdr
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

As a retired artillery officer, I am sure that there is not an OPSEC problem with the exterior dimensions of the M777.

The problem is it is a relatively new weapon and not a lot of material is public.

As for timing....the M198 came out in the early 80s and look how long it took for that styrene kit.

As an artillery modeler an M777 would be a welcome sight for me. But most mainstream modelers are not into artillery, especially towed artillery. It can be a limited market.

Ask any of the book writers...I had a conversation with Steve Zaloga and he lamented the hardest book to sell is artillery. You can talk tanks and HMMWVs and Strykers until you are blue in the face.....they are popular.

The list of un-produced styrene artillery for just the US is long.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm. At my age I have learned patience and realize there is plenty in the stash even without the M777....And not one tank in the stash either.

My two cents

Rounds Complete!!




Sometimes...and I mean "sometimes"...if one is extremely lucky and wanting, one could contact the actual maker of the M777.

Some of these companies have and may be willing to sell a scale model of the actual weapon or put you in contact with the model maker. Do be forewarned that such custom models often cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. HOWEVER, I do believe quite a few 1/35 modern resin and styrene model kits did derive from these custom-built models for defense companies. I did this once before to learn that there was a resin model of a modern AFV not even produced in a kit, but the price was very steep. Many years later, that AFV came out in plastic.



That would be easy enough to do....but EVERYONE wants a cut of the pie. Copyright issues are way bigger to a model company than any OPSEC issues ever will be...unless you are in China of course and then it is simply the Wild Wild West for producing anything you want.


LeoCmdr
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As a retired artillery officer, I am sure that there is not an OPSEC problem with the exterior dimensions of the M777.

The problem is it is a relatively new weapon and not a lot of material is public.

As for timing....the M198 came out in the early 80s and look how long it took for that styrene kit.

As an artillery modeler an M777 would be a welcome sight for me. But most mainstream modelers are not into artillery, especially towed artillery. It can be a limited market.

Ask any of the book writers...I had a conversation with Steve Zaloga and he lamented the hardest book to sell is artillery. You can talk tanks and HMMWVs and Strykers until you are blue in the face.....they are popular.

The list of un-produced styrene artillery for just the US is long.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm. At my age I have learned patience and realize there is plenty in the stash even without the M777....And not one tank in the stash either.

My two cents

Rounds Complete!!




My reference to OPSEC was just an general example and not specific to the M777. It is simply something for folks to keep in mind as a point that may delay or inhibit a kit development when providing reference material in the form of images and not just dimensions....if there are potential OPSEC issues this may simply delay sending all of the required information and it might take a while until clearance is approved or the operational status changes....rare, but it happens.

Fire for Effect!
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:38 PM UTC
I'm glad to see all of the attention this old thread is receiving. I understand copyright royalties very well. However, you can also look at the higher end manufacturers and see that no expense is spared when it comes to mainstream kits. I note that occasionally there are some issues which the manufacturers consider minute enough to flub. The M777 has been around for a number of years and I don't believe it is beyond a model manufacturer's ability to produce something close. I don't particularly care if the wheels don't have the "manufacturer's" logo or name. As was previously stated, by going through the proper channels, the company that makes the 1:1 version could be bothered for dimensions, if not workings.
As old as this thread is, it is not the first. I have unlimited patience, but years are passing since the kit was first requested. If there are problems obtaining the dimensions, I don't understand them. Look at Dragon's M1A2 SEP. This tank is fairly new, yet the accuracy is dynamic. There is likely a reason that there are no companies are producing an interior. For quite a bit of my research, I can rely on family members whose duty was less than obscure and keep up on new military technologies. To be honest, I find it difficult to come up with information that they weren't privy to a year before or when the item was just a prototype.
The obscurity of artillery, itself should persuade manufacturers to fill in the gaps. For being so obscure, I have found very few pieces to be neglected. If the cost runs high, the price for the kit runs high. This doesn't mean that people won't buy it, but rather that they will spend more money to obtain it. For instance, Dragon's M1A2 Abrams SEP runs about $40. I didn't say it was too expensive, I bit the bullet and shelled out the extra cash. High price was negated by the level of detail and accuracy. I've found few limited runs that weren't re-boxed or re-issued a year or three later. So, make it as a limited run. It will bring in more money and can return to the shelves if the demand is found to be high enough. It would seem a win win situation for the manufacturer.
redleg12
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:42 PM UTC
Understood Jason...I general I agree with everything you have said.

I have worked with some resin manufacturers and know what they put in. Making a kit no matter what the medium has to show a return on investment!!

As for getting something out of it, all I want is a free kit when it comes out....I enjoy the research.

Rounds Complete!!
skyshark
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:59 PM UTC
As far as Mouse Houses M119er. I think if it were more easily distroed in the states it would sell more. Maybe they should contact companies in the states. I for one don't like to deal with the international shipping.
redleg12
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Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As far as Mouse Houses M119er. I think if it were more easily distroed in the states it would sell more. Maybe they should contact companies in the states. I for one don't like to deal with the international shipping.



Would totally agree with you. He is a small operation with limited distribution. It is a nice kit but a PITA to get your hands on outside of down under.

Rounds Complete!!
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 01:36 AM UTC
Let's get this one back on topic. I think Dragon could produce this as a white box kit with a possible regular run, if found to be desirable. I am seeing this as more of a Tamiya style venture, quite accurate but easily produced.
I'm am going to contact Revell, as they are a local manufacturer and may find it easier to get the dimensions. I have considered Academy/Minicraft, but doubt they will pick it up. They don't appear to be big on arty. It would be of great help if everyone who wants to see this in plastic would email the various manufacturers I have listed, as well as any I have forgot.
I have also contacted Perfect Scale Modellbau and Real Model.
retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, July 16, 2012 - 01:09 AM UTC
Not going to let this one fall between the cracks, again. I'm thinking Trumpeter may be the best bet. They seem to be willing to take risks on production of lesser known and more specialized vehicles.
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, July 16, 2012 - 03:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm sure that there is a modeller out there who can provide the reference material. Just look at Frenchy's collection.



Even it is relatively easy to post a few pics about a given subject (like a towed 155 mm artillery piece, successor to the M198 howitzer in the United States Marine Corps and United States Army for instance ...), providing enough reference stuff to scratchbuild a master is another story...for me at least
Frenchy
skyshark
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Posted: Monday, July 16, 2012 - 04:07 AM UTC
Matt,
Perfect scale models yes have ordered from them and there products are great and shipped timely. Real models have ordered from him twice. 1st time missing afew parts from kit. Ordered a second time because he does have unique kits but was burnt again missing and broken parts. Took 5 months to get items. Sounds like another AEF. He emailed me to get my info been 2 weeks. Ohwell Perfect scale and Miniman Factory will hopefully soon start having same type kits as him. Look Trup made a plastic ves of his HET
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, July 16, 2012 - 05:17 AM UTC
Good luck on your quest. In my opinion, Trumpeter and Hobby Boss are your best bets. They seem to be on the ball with modern releases. I wouldn't hold my breath though, the Trumpeter M198 took almost 30 years from initial fielding to come out in plastic kit form.
redleg12
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Posted: Monday, July 16, 2012 - 01:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Good luck on your quest. In my opinion, Trumpeter and Hobby Boss are your best bets. They seem to be on the ball with modern releases. I wouldn't hold my breath though, the Trumpeter M198 took almost 30 years from initial fielding to come out in plastic kit form.



Yep.....it took 20+ years to get a resin version!!

Rounds Complete!!
retiredyank
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Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 12:18 AM UTC
OK guys. I will be pulling on you for information of the dimensions of the M777. My scratch building talent is untested, but I have plenty of time and patience. So, I will be attempting to build the M777 and present it to an interested manufacturer. Please contact me at [email protected] .
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 02:56 AM UTC
Gamla Model Makers did a a few scale display models for BAE (the manufacturer of M777s). Maybe they could scale them down to 1/35.

1/10 M777A2

1/25 M777A2

They look pretty nice.


***UPDATE***UPDATE***UPDATE***

Gamla also does a 1/35 version!!!!

1/35 M777A2

Looks like I need to send them an email!!!

I'll let you know what I find out!!!
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 03:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gamla also does a 1/35 version!!!!



More pics here (but you must have seen them already ) :
http://www.lifeinscale.net/M777_35_scale_model.asp

Frenchy