Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Dragon Panzer IV E 3 in 1
Thudius
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Posted: Friday, March 07, 2014 - 08:03 AM UTC
Continuing from yesterday, I almost completed the vision block mounts. Still need to add some base plates and the actuator bars, that will need a bit of cheating, more as we get going. While dry fitting, I was wondering why something felt off, it appears Dragon got the ports on the turret front off a little. The right hand port should be in towards the mantlet a bit more, and possibly the left, but not by much. So, the mounts won't be strictly "accurate", but will busy up the interior nicely.




This stuff takes forever to get done, measure, cut, trim glue, wait. You'll notice a figure in the background, while waiting for stuff to set, I decided to get that going. I've been itching to do one for a while now so thought, what the heck. I'll do a separate thread for that.

More tomorrow, possibly.

Kimmo
chumpo
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Posted: Friday, March 07, 2014 - 05:37 PM UTC

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My impression of the lifting hooks was that they were bolted on to the turret . I was thinking it would make sense to put the plate under the hooks because it would be flat and fit better . I did more search and just could not come up with any pictures clear enough to blow up and see the detail . I'll keep looking. There's got to be one out there . The plastic straps provided by dragon gives you the impression you lose the hook and shave off the details to fit . In a way it's mounting just does not seem to make sense .



It does make sense, just not intuitive sense. In this photo you can see the hook assembly. I imagine the way it was made was a plate with a slot cut out, the hook fits in the slot and then is welded to the plate which is bolted to the hull. Italeri actually produced their kit this way if memory serves.

http://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/tanks/panzer4/PzKpfw_IV_turret.jpg

If you look at the photo in the previous post, you can see a shadow under the strip, which means it is not flush against the turret. Therefore, the strip is attached to the hook/plate assembly. There is plenty of room for it to slide in there. From a logical point of view, there would either be a spacer, or the shaved down remains of the original bolts on which the strip sits (flush with the hook bump)and new bolts on top of that. I admit it would sound better to have the hook assembly completely on top, but I don't know at what point the bin is brought into the production chain. So if the bins come after the turret is complete, the strip would go on top of the assembly, rather than under it. You have to remember that these bins were field mods first and slowly brought into standard production and the mounting seems to have changed from the F model on.

Kimmo



That would explain why the late panzer IV E's that I probably found pictures of looked like the straps were under the lifting hooks . I just could not get pictures posted . I could not figure how to get the link . I got so frustrated I just gave up . Still adding those tiny details . You have a ton of patience , keep it up . Looks just too darn nice .
Thudius
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 03:10 AM UTC
Thanks Chumpo, sometimes a little encouragement or a kick in the backside is needed.

Got the mounts done, just need to add the glass. I decided to make some swivel arms from plastic so I basically copied the pe ones. I chopped 4 pieces after tracing the outline onto the first piece and clamped them together with tweezers and filed and sanded. Major thumb cramps ensued. I realized after I had glued the arms in place that there should be an extension running across the top. This design doesn't look too functional to me, but that's what's in the book. Trimmed the heads and glued small strips on. Amazingly, they took quite well. I needed to trim the tubes on the ceiling back to get the mount to fit, other than that, went pretty smoothly. Still need a slice on the right mount to clear the turret half. You'll notice the arms are in different positions, the left side is closed and the right will be slightly open.






I also got the sight in place. Somehow I managed to guestimate the mounting strut correctly on the first go.




That's it for the weekend, DJing, beer and maybe hockey on tap tonight.

Kimmo
chumpo
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 03:48 AM UTC
You mentioned cramps of the fingers , you could try using the folding tool to hold the small pieces for sanding if the are flat . Or maybe a duckbill pliers . They make holding the pieces easier .
Thudius
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:03 AM UTC

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You mentioned cramps of the fingers , you could try using the folding tool to hold the small pieces for sanding if the are flat . Or maybe a duckbill pliers . They make holding the pieces easier .



I thought of that but figured there wouldn't be enough gripping surface on the pieces. The first half went fine, it was the last bit that took its toll. My own fault for doing all four at the same time, two would have been a little easier.
chumpo
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 05:11 AM UTC
So you are a believer of no pain no gain . Hang in there .
Thudius
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 01:26 PM UTC

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So you are a believer of no pain no gain . Hang in there .



As Ringo once sang: You got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues.
AFVFan
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Posted: Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 09:03 PM UTC
It just keeps getting better Kimmo!
Thudius
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Posted: Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 01:15 AM UTC

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It just keeps getting better Kimmo!



Thanks Bob, a couple more turret sessions and then I should be able to get back to painting.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Monday, March 10, 2014 - 09:02 AM UTC
Another small update. Installed the glass blocks and flowed some Future to seal them in place and to give them a bit more clarity. The left side one went in sideways so there was a hairline gap, fortunately it won't be seen. Added the locking handles to the doors and did some painting in hard to reach areas and the hatches. Also got some brass origami practice in. I was going to use the kit supplied pe latches for the turret bin, but gave up after losing a clasp for the second time. If you manage to get it together as designed, it might just work like the real thing, sort of. If you don't have another set of latches and use the kit pe, I'd suggest trimming off all the locating tabs and gluing the various pieces in place rather than trying to get tab A into slot B. I ended up using latches from the Griffon set. They look weird on the fret but actually fold together quite easily considering how small they are.









That's it for now, should get some more time in tomorrow.

Kimmo


Thudius
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Posted: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 06:59 AM UTC
I decided to add a run of tracks to the turret, so I cobbled a rack together out of angle and regular strip, with welds of course. Got the front cover sorted out too. I trimmed the kit supplied pe and sort of winged it, I think it will work well enough once in place. Adding the sighting vane at this stage will probably come back to bite me, but I need it in place before painting and gluing the cupola.






I decided to tackle the tow cables as well. I almost used some Eureka cable, but discovered the kit supplied stuff would do. My only experience with Dragon cable was with the newer Stug III kit. That stuff was made of some incredibly high tensile steel that wouldn't hold a bend and was impossible to cut. The kit supplied cable is so-so, annealing might help. The instructions call for 120mm and you get 25omm or so. Cut in half and trim a little if you want. The smoke candle rack had to be added first and then I sort of followed the kit instructions and draped the cables, more like coaxed and prodded and glued. I slightly enlarged the holes in the cable eyes for a better fit (#70 bit) and glued one end first, then got busy. I ended up with the tow eyes on top of the rack, which seemed logical to me, and tied them together with a piece of copper wire doubled over and twisted to represent actual wire. I figured that the last thing you would want is for the cables to keep flailing about. A couple coats of primer to help keep everything in place, and voila.







Next up, I'll do dome some exhaust work and get the turret base coated.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 08:24 AM UTC
Managed to get the exhausts basically done and top coated the tank uppers, I'll leave the lower hull as is. I got some base coats on the all the spare tracks as well. I rusted the exhausts with pigments and glaze medium after giving them base coats of sloppy reddish browns. If you've never used pigments, pick up a cheap set of "artists" pastels and a fixer of your choice. It's simple, effective and cheap. I applied a base coat of reddish brown, and while the fixer was still damp, blotched in reds, oranges and so on. After drying for a bit, I applied a thinned glaze to seal it. This toned down the effect so I may apply some more later. I realized the exhaust won't fit in place if glued together so I'll fiddle with that at the end of the build.









I added a little colour by painting the track and jerry can racks with thin reddish brown. These will get a wash of orange-tan to tone them down, some torch marks and scuffs and of course, dessert yellow along with the rest of the tank. The colours are a little off in my photos, I might take some tomorrow if we get any sun. I suspect very little will actually be seen when all is said and done, but better to add it now and lose colour than try to add it in after the camo has been applied.




With some luck, I'll get the decals on tomorrow. I haven't decided on markings yet, but as this is a fictitious tank, I'll go with whatever catches my eye (and whatever looks easiest to apply over the turret ports) for numbers and unit markings from the kit supplied sheet.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2014 - 03:01 AM UTC
Got the decals on, now its a case of waiting for the decal solution gods to do their thing. I used Vallejo decal medium as per usual and I'm waiting to see how well it sucks in the turret numbers. I got a little speculative with the markings, as I said earlier, I'm not doing a specific tank so I played around a bit and did what worked best and made sense. The idea all along has been to depict a tank that has been delivered in grey with full markings and then painted and modified for desert use.







That's probably it until next week.

Kimmo
maultier
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 06:02 AM UTC
Excelent work for a model with bigger problems... (the front armour have the dimension wrong..) this was the Worst Pz4 Of dragon, the features was corrected in Panzer 4E vorpanzer and are include in Panzer 4 D.

Parts wrong in the kit:
sprockets, fronat armour, large of hull, angle in rear armor (fail in all panzer 4 E and D), etc.

you can read this all fail parts here:
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6264.htm
I sad because i dont seen any correction in your model and you do a amazing work with the interior.

cheers.
Thudius
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Posted: Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 06:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Excelent work for a model with bigger problems... (the front armour have the dimension wrong..) this was the Worst Pz4 Of dragon, the features was corrected in Panzer 4E vorpanzer and are include in Panzer 4 D.

Parts wrong in the kit:
sprockets, fronat armour, large of hull, angle in rear armor (fail in all panzer 4 E and D), etc.

cheers.



Thanks. I knew about the problems going in, but it's still a pretty nice kit and most of the issues can be corrected should you want to. I think some of them may have been corrected, for instance the exhaust, it doesn't look undersized at all. Just having some fun and trying some new/old things.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Monday, March 17, 2014 - 07:54 AM UTC
The decals worked out ok. As I suspected, there were a couple of spots where they didn't settle down completely, but overall, not bad. No silvering apart from a minor edge on the visor which was probably due to there not being enough film to actually stick to anything. I made a couple of slices and reapplied decal medium and when that had dried a few hours, I applied clear coat to the whole kit. While it was drying, I cleaned up the remaining half of the track links.






I also made a test bed out of the other hull tub. 2 coats of primer and a good coat of matte and gloss on either side with bare primer down the middle.



I need to test Vallejo's chipping medium, and I'll also test out my Microsol and Microset. I've had them for over 10 years, it'll be interesting to see how well they work, if at all.


Kimmo



Thudius
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 01:43 AM UTC
Minor update today, painted and installed the vision blocks for the turret doors and did some detail painting. Bashed up a new turret indicator, I wasn't happy with the lines so I took a page out of my aircraft days. Black, gloss, white and then scribed the lines in. Much better, but still not perfect. It will have to do.





Applied some decals to the test hull and applied Sol/Set. It would appear to be working and not damaging the finish. More on that tomorrow when they've had a chance to settle properly.

Kimmo
chumpo
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 07:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Excelent work for a model with bigger problems... (the front armour have the dimension wrong..) this was the Worst Pz4 Of dragon, the features was corrected in Panzer 4E vorpanzer and are include in Panzer 4 D.

Parts wrong in the kit:
sprockets, fronat armour, large of hull, angle in rear armor (fail in all panzer 4 E and D), etc.

you can read this all fail parts here:
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6264.htm
I sad because i dont seen any correction in your model and you do a amazing work with the interior.

cheers.



Unless you are an avid collector of dragon kits you would be hard pressed to get those parts , the hardest one to fix is the turret , there are no dragon kits that give you the turret as an unused part . I have this kit and I wanted to fix the turret and I ran across somebody selling a bunch of dragon kits assemble or in the process of being assembled . And there were dragon panzer IV E turret . I thought I would be able to bid on it but when the bids went past 250 dollars I backed off . It would of been cheaper for me to just buy the dragon 6301 and take the PE from this kit to make a late panzer IV E . Now if you want to make an early IV E you up the creek .
Thudius
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 09:15 AM UTC
It is a shame they messed up this kit the way they did, but, if you don't mind the inaccuracies and can get it cheap, grab one. Or if you do mind the inaccuracies and can get it really cheap, then you won't mind screwing it up by trying to fix it

Kimmo
chumpo
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 10:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It is a shame they messed up this kit the way they did, but, if you don't mind the inaccuracies and can get it cheap, grab one. Or if you do mind the inaccuracies and can get it really cheap, then you won't mind screwing it up by trying to fix it

Kimmo


The turret will definitely be a challenge to fix . It can be done but will be a bear . I sliced and diced the hull got the dimensions right and even moved the last track support roller , I had the the 6330 so got the brake access plate to fix the length and got the gunners front vision port and machine gun parts from the 6438 . The rest of the fixes on the hull are cosmetics and the drive wheels bolt pattern are not visible unless you break out the eye loop , they will disappear after painting and weathering . I just can not accomplish what you did to the turret interior . That is way too much for me to jump into . I did mess up one thing . I corrected the early hull , the one with out the added armor plate on the sides , so I cut up the later hull and sanded those plates off it to put on the earlier hull . I wanted to make an afrika Korp panzer e . As I had said your doing a hell of a job on this kit .
Thudius
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Posted: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 10:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

It is a shame they messed up this kit the way they did, but, if you don't mind the inaccuracies and can get it cheap, grab one. Or if you do mind the inaccuracies and can get it really cheap, then you won't mind screwing it up by trying to fix it

Kimmo


The turret will definitely be a challenge to fix . It can be done but will be a bear . I sliced and diced the hull got the dimensions right and even moved the last track support roller , I had the the 6330 so got the brake access plate to fix the length and got the gunners front vision port and machine gun parts from the 6438 . The rest of the fixes on the hull are cosmetics and the drive wheels bolt pattern are not visible unless you break out the eye loop , they will disappear after painting and weathering . I just can not accomplish what you did to the turret interior . That is way too much for me to jump into . I did mess up one thing . I corrected the early hull , the one with out the added armor plate on the sides , so I cut up the later hull and sanded those plates off it to put on the earlier hull . I wanted to make an afrika Korp panzer e . As I had said your doing a hell of a job on this kit .



Thanks again, if I get another one some day, I might do the chop chop with it. For science. Or something like that.

Kimmo

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 02:09 AM UTC
The great chipping experiment begins. First things first. The decals turned out reasonably well, the Sol/Set had no effects on either the paint or the varnish and as a nice bonus, the Sol worked over Vallejos decal medium without any problems. That is, I had sealed the decal completely with Vallejo, then applied Sol. Back to the chipping. Here's what we'll be using:



Instructions for using this stuff are a little thin on the ground. I had asked Vallejo on their facebook page and couldn't get a more detailed answer than: brush it on, let dry and paint over it. Okey dokey. I brushed some medium on 2/3 of the hull, I wanted a section without anything on it to see what happens without the medium, and let dry for about 10-15 minutes. I brushed on some Greenbrown and Khaki Grey (just checking colours). The first thing I noticed was that since the medium reacts with water, brushing on thinned paint is a little tricky. The paint tends to gunk up if you try more than one pass. Not a promising start.

On to the actual chipping, I used a soft stipple brush, a harder stipple brush, regular brush, toothpick and a sponge.
I forgot to take pictures at each stage so the pics below are after chipping with a fresh paint layer down the middle and a second coat applied to a chipped area on the lower middle section.





The back end had no medium.



The quick conclusion is that more testing is needed. I found that a moist soft stipple brush, or a moistened sponge gave the most controllable effects for heavy wear, and a moistened toothpick (or a coat of water, then toothpick) was actually the best for precision work. Interestingly, the untreated section worked quite well, again, moistened soft stipple and toothpick were best. I found trying to chip directly with the toothpick was digging into the bottom layer and exposing bare plastic. The more water you use, the greater the wear effect is. Most of the ridges of gunk disappear afterwards so even if the paint layer looks like crap, it will tone down reasonably well. It does look like a coat of flat might be necessary, although the washed out paint dulls down most of the shine.

I'm letting the whole thing dry overnight and will attack it again to see if drying times make any difference to reactions. Then will wash the whole thing, and repeat the painting/chipping process, again to see if this has any affect or not.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 12:54 AM UTC
And things continue to get chippy. I did some more scrubbing on yesterday's efforts, it looks a little better and was slightly easier to control. To recap, medium and paint left to cure overnight:



This is more what I'm after, middle patch. No medium, cured overnight:



Hit with a toothbrush and detergent:



Now we're on to something. Repainted:




I tried applying the medium with a sponge and stippled it a little. I ran into the same problem, the paint won't really cover nicely over the medium, but we do have a very nice severe wear going on that was done with a wet brush, no scrubbing needed:




So I have a theory: the medium straight out of the jar is very concentrated and this is affecting the way the paint lays down, so I thinned it roughly 50% and have applied a coat to the road wheels. I'll let that dry for an hour or more and then see what happens. You can see that the reapplied paint to the cleaned and scrubbed surface is working much better (for my purposes anyway), as it stands now, scrubbing fresh paint with no medium works as well as the reworked surfaces. So, if my theory holds true, the thinned medium should give a good base to work with. Hopefully. More on that later.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 04:34 AM UTC
It looks like my hunch was right. Thinning the medium gave me lots more control and the paint went down better. I think more thinning and maybe even a lighter application is needed.

First coat




Second coat, you can see a little build up at the base of the hub.





And the chipping done with a smallish wet brush and some light jabs with a toothpick. The amount of water determines how much paint is removed, so you'll need to experiment with brush type and wetness.




I'm happy enough that I think I'll give the lower hull a coat of medium, I may or may not have enough time to get a coat of paint on today. Hopefully yes so the paint will dry and cure overnight. I'm confident that it will work out well enough. Everything will get a dusting of pigments in any event.

Kimmo
Thudius
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2014 - 06:52 AM UTC
Managed to get a good 3-4 thin coats on the hull. I discovered a very light touch was needed, a couple of spots started to lift. That's the real tricky part here, you need thin paint, yet water activates the lifting, so you need to flow the paint onto the surface rather than brush it on. You airbrush types shouldn't have any of these issues, but thinning the medium is a good idea, it's basically a gel but it settles down nice when dry.






I'm pretty happy so far. The uneven coverage lends to the worn and hasty application feel I'm looking for. I'll probably need one more coat to tie everything together a little more. I should get another session in tomorrow.

Kimmo