_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Landkreuzer P-1000 Ratte
MikeyBugs95
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 27, 2013
KitMaker: 2,210 posts
Armorama: 1,712 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 03:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

p.s. Regarding the idea of a dio: If/when I get the Heinrich, I'll have to do something for it. I'm sure I can find a little Hitler, photographer, staff car, and sundry peons as staff. Figures still "trip me out," but... Hmmmm.....


You could also get a few figures that could a part of the "commissioning ceremony" looking up at the top as though it never ends.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 07:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How about a Luftwaffe fighter scheme with two tone green splinter on all horizontal surfaces and mottled vertical surfaces(you could substitute panzer yellow for the light grey used on the planes to make it more 'Heer')

Steve, interesting...cool idea to float in the gray matter.

Quick shot of the belly plate(s):



Having some belly access plates, drains, and escape hatches designed. Should be interesting.

Mike
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 09:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was looking at the underside of a KT, Tiger, Panther and Pz IV...thinking about all the access panels, drain points, et cetera. Going to have to see about those being done via 3D printing (looking at Tom and Matt L, )

I figure the "escape hatches" can be done out of thin stock...but wouldn't that be neat if the 3D did it with armored hinges?


Bear in mind those escape hatches will be over 6 feet above the ground - you'll need ladders! (Or a droppable stairs, like on an airplane? There's plenty of room for a rectangular hatch that has stair-treads on it, that drops to say a 45-degree angle.)

And any engine access plates will also be subject to gravity - wouldn't really want to hold a ton of steel over your head while an assistant tightens the bolts...
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 12:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

There's plenty of room for a rectangular hatch that has stair-treads on it, that drops to say a 45-degree angle.)

Tom, good catch. Just measured...on a flat surface (pavement or a gravel motorpool) it comes to 7.5 feet.


Quoted Text

..wouldn't really want to hold a ton of steel over your head while an assistant tightens the bolts...


Pretty sure this beastie's OVM includes some moveable scaffolding/heavy ladders.

Mike
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 01:54 PM UTC
Escape hatch concept (would need to come up with a lift/lower cable system):



"Escape" hatch may be the wrong terminology. In an emergency, they could 'drop' it to escape, but during normal non-moving ops, it could also be used for a ground level entrance.

Mike
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 - 09:53 PM UTC
For lifting, I'd go with a piston each side, around midpoint. You could also add a proper door to the rear wall, with a slide-down ladder (think "city fire escape"). Then again, there's probably enough room at the rear for a decent veranda, with tables & chairs for the officers to have breakfast...

Seriously though, a handful of these escape hatches on the bottom would look good. I'm thinking you need one for each compartment - engine room, crew quarters, magazine, etc because it's a mighty big vehicle!
salt6
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 796 posts
Armorama: 574 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 01:15 PM UTC
the hatch under the magazine should be a little larger. It could double for the ammo loading port.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 01:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm thinking you need one for each compartment - engine room, crew quarters, magazine, etc because it's a mighty big vehicle!

Agreed! Looking at getting six made. Along with a bunch of inspection covers/drain plugs for the engine area and some for the front.

Quoted Text

the hatch under the magazine should be a little larger. It could double for the ammo loading port.

It'll have about a 7.5 foot ground clearance...could one of those Pz. IV Munitionsschleppers fit under there? The 280mm round itself is about 49 inches long by 11 inches in diameter. A bit wider would not hurt. If so, that could be an option. Heck, another kit within a kit! LOL!!

At the moment (subject to change) I'm contemplating an armored loader's door on the glacis (which technically would operate like the conveyor system they use for the Paladin's). Heck either one could be used for all of the weapons systems come to think of it.

Mike
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2014 - 11:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It'll have about a 7.5 foot ground clearance...could one of those Pz. IV Munitionsschleppers fit under there?


Probably, if the crane was dismounted! (Would the loading bay have a "grabber" claw?...) However, I doubt they'd load from underneath - there is too much risk of restricted access depending on terrain. More likely they'd either have a hatch at one end (rear, for safety?) or on the hull roof. Of course, if you have a vehicle bay at the rear, it could double as the loading bay, with trucks or schleppers pulling in under cover for unloading...
Removed by original poster on 09/26/14 - 12:35:05 (GMT).
corsair924
Visit this Community
New Hampshire, United States
Joined: August 11, 2008
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 322 posts
Posted: Friday, September 26, 2014 - 12:36 AM UTC
I agree loading from beside makes more sense. If you're going with the rear loading door have you considered making it open up (on pistons) to give an armored cover when working?
Also might want to make an extending crane ( I-beam with rollers and block & tackle) to go out over the munitions carrier. This kind but without the legs:


(One side or centered between engines??)

Heck, by this point why stick with the PZ4 chassis Munitionsvagon why not go to one based off the King Tiger--make the armor vertical out over the tracks and the driver shoved forward to give more volume.

By the way--perhaps paint it to look like a village.
wedgetail53
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 658 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Friday, September 26, 2014 - 11:45 AM UTC
Mike

You may recall that the Sturmmorser Tiger mounted a small crane to load the rocket projectiles, which, IIRC, were 380mm in diameter, and may well have been of similar weight to a 280mm shell.

Perhaps you could use something similar, particularly as the shells would have to be stored lying horizontally, as there is no way the crew would be wanting to try and move them from vertical storage to horizontal for firing.

I suspect that an internal loading system of rollers etc, similar to the SM Tiger, may also be in order.

Looking good, and I have been following the thread with interest. Given the vast amount of plastic card you are consuming, have you bought any shares in the company which makes it yet?

Regards

Rob
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 01:04 PM UTC
Hey all,

I've decided to go with a loading door in the front glacis. I've started cutting the plastic card to fit the front edge (wraps from top to bottom). I'll figure out the hinges once it's cut and installed.

I've also worked a bit on the mounting for the JagdPanzer mantlet; added an angled side so it's not such a "shot trap."

And I'm working on the road wheels/drive sprockets/idler wheels; basically ensuring I know how they'll attach and looking at how best they can support the weight of this monster. There are still a couple of things to work out - like the idlers will not work where I have the holes drilled. I'll need to reevaluate that!

You may notice a bit of the Bondo work. Turned out pretty good (in the raw - we'll see how that goes when it's time for primer!).

Couple of pictures:

Underside with the belly in place (not glued)



The threaded rod will be cut off (there at the right). The inner washer/nut will be covered by a housing that'll run the length of the Ratte. The outer will be covered with something like a "maintenance" panel/compartment



Six 1/25th Panther wheels and one length of copper tube will make up the idler assembly.

Lots of copper and thread-all.

CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 01:14 PM UTC
Mikle I may have spotted a problem: is that the drive wheel at the very back? If it is the viewer can see that there is no transmission attached to the drive wheels.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 03:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mikle I may have spotted a problem: is that the drive wheel at the very back? If it is the viewer can see that there is no transmission attached to the drive wheels.


The drives are in the front. Regarding the transmission, I think that'll be taken care of when the housing on the inside (which covers the washers and nuts) is installed.

Mike
Dragon164
#226
Visit this Community
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: February 20, 2012
KitMaker: 1,909 posts
Armorama: 1,066 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2014 - 12:37 PM UTC
Mike,
I am wondering if your drive sprockets are going to be big enough, they will have a lot of weight to pull.

Cheers Rob.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2014 - 02:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I am wondering if your drive sprockets are going to be big enough, they will have a lot of weight to pull.


Agreed Rob, but not much choice. 1/16th KT drives would be better (or German Pz III/IV 1/6th?) but they'd not fit the tracks (1/25th Jagd/Panther).

I could possibly put in a second set...just finding them would be a drag...

Mike
Dragon164
#226
Visit this Community
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: February 20, 2012
KitMaker: 1,909 posts
Armorama: 1,066 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 04, 2014 - 06:11 PM UTC
I thought I would mention it in case you were concerned.

I did find these.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Heng-Long-1-16-Tiger-I-plastic-sprockets-Grey-color-/221431503240?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles&hash=item338e589988

Cheers Rob.
salt6
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 796 posts
Armorama: 574 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 10:22 AM UTC
I think I'd leave off the hulll gun. I don't see much use for it. If you need a smaller caliber gun I would look at mountinv it inthe main turret, should be enough room.
wedgetail53
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 658 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 10:44 AM UTC
I disagree - the hull gun is there to fire on anything which gets too close for the main gun, which would have difficulty depressing far enough.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 12:21 PM UTC
Agreed Rob W. Yet an 88mm could depress enough if its mount were angled some. However, I want to keep the main turret "clean" of anything but the 28cm mains and maybe a range finder.

Heh, back to one of my early-on questions: JagdPanzer or JagdPanther? I have both mantlets and barrels. 88mm vs. 75mm. Ammo storage wouldn't be an issue that's for sure!

Considering there are two MAUS turrets (128mm and 75mm) it may make sense to mount the Jagd IV mantlet and barrel (L/70) and use the same ammo?

Well, back to the shop to take apart the running gear and clean up the mount for Jagd IV (it may well work for the JagdP too) and work on the ammo loading hatches.

Thanks for the input gents...I do read them, consider them, seek guidance, get a laugh out of many...it keeps the "juices" flowing. LOL, I figure I need another $150-$200 for various materials. Heh, then the paint!

Mike
griffontech
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
Armorama: 231 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 01:20 PM UTC
I'd stick with an 88 for auxiliary close in weapons. One front and rear for sure. Maybe one to each side.
Are you mounting any mini barbettes / turrets / openings for MG's? Don't forget the pesky hordes of Russian soldiers who want to get close with grappling hooks, ladders and magnetic mines.
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 01:59 PM UTC
Couple of updates.

Mounted the framework for the main turret and did some work on the front secondary gun and the ammo loading door:





[/URL

Mike
TacFireGuru
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 02:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd stick with an 88 for auxiliary close in weapons. One front and rear for sure. Maybe one to each side.


Still considering the 88 vs. 75. I have thought about putting one on one of the track housings in the rear. Good AM JagdPanzer mantlets are much easier to get than those for the JagdPanther.


Quoted Text

Are you mounting any mini barbettes / turrets / openings for MG's?


Barbette? Isn't that some kind of ship thing? Smaller close in defensive weapon?

I have two Panther commander's cupolas, one with IR. I'm going to see about getting a second Voyager IR set. Those will go on top of each track housing in the front. Two commanders dealing with movement and defense/low level offense.

I currently have two AM Tiger II Kugelblendes. Those are for the front. I'd like to get two more Tiger II style for the rear.

I'd really like to find about 8 MG mounts from a Panzer IV or Tiger I (4 for each side). I don't know that there are any AM ones out there (???). I could get them cast or printed as an alternative option.

Mike
griffontech
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
Armorama: 231 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2014 - 04:48 PM UTC
Yup, basically a naval term, but as described in Wiki (scroll to bottom) a gun position that does not have all around traverse is (like a B17 tail gun) is sometimes called a barbette.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbette

Unless the MG's are mounted close to the edge of the top of the beast so they can fire downward, they may not cover from infantry close to the vehicle. I was basically thinking of modern warships that mount 7.62 or .50 cal mg's along the rails while they are near ports.
 _GOTOTOP