Just as a comparison, I am now looking at the bookcase where my Tamiya Leopard 1A4 stands. I bought it in 1980 and built it in 1982. The tracks are still fine. In fact, two years ago I took them off to give her a bit of a cleanup (she was awfully dusty) and I still had to really pull on the buggers to get them off and later back on over the front idlers.
My oldest Italeri tank is a 1984 M109. I didn't like the tracks (too thick, too stiff, impossible to get that M109-sag quite right) but I never replaced them and they're they're still like that today, all round-y and bouncy and springy. (Sigh)
My oldest Academy tank is a 1993 LVTP-7. Tracks are doing fine too. (Sag is perfect, by the way.)
My oldest tank of _any_ make (and my very first 1/35th) is a 1975 Tamiya M113. Rebuilt and repainted twice, running gear included. The tracks are as good now as they were then. Furthermore, replacing them with link & length or individual link tracks - plastic or metal - would not improve them.
So you see, Messrs Dragon & Co, it *can* be done.
Grtz,
Marc
PS All of the tanks I mentioned here were painted with Humbrol enamels - the *old* compound. The new compound is not as good but at least your children can drink it without having to be taken to hospital.
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Dragon DS tracks disintegrating/splitting?
Wolfhound113
Joined: November 28, 2013
KitMaker: 49 posts
Armorama: 23 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 03:03 AM UTC
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 04:50 AM UTC
Nitto and Fujimi track were notorious for becoming brittle and shattering. Airfix track would melt ruining plastic parts.
This is not exactly a new problem. One would think they could have settled on a stable compound by now.
This is not exactly a new problem. One would think they could have settled on a stable compound by now.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 05:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nitto and Fujimi track were notorious for becoming brittle and shattering. Airfix track would melt ruining plastic parts.
This is not exactly a new problem. One would think they could have settled on a stable compound by now.
And Italeri's rubber tires. I opened an Opel Blitz to find the tires had actually burned down through the sprues below to leave circular melt rings on a number of parts.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 07:56 AM UTC
I don't know if this was brought up but a collector of Marx figures said that the dye used in the creation of soft pliable plastic can also effect longevity and suppleness. Blue and tan are more supple, black is more stiff and so on.
But I believe Dragon styrene is left natural without dyes?
But I believe Dragon styrene is left natural without dyes?
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 03:29 PM UTC
I find this topic very interesting. I wonder if climate and humidity have any effect. I may be tempting fate here, but in over 40 years modelling, the only rubber band type tracks I've had problems with breaking after assembly was on an AFV Club Sdkfz251/9. I couldn't glue them back together with Superglue, as they had "recoiled" so didn't meet any more, however I managed to glue them onto the wheels with said Superglue to position them. I've never had any trouble with vinyl tyres such as Italaeri, Tamiya tracks or Dragon DS (yet!)and all mine are painted and washed with Humbrol. It may be that they NEED to be painted to preserve them?
This is a similar issue to "lead rot" or "lead disease" which old time figure painters will be familiar with. Collectors, particularly those who lived in humid climates (eg the Far East), frequently had their painted white metal figures show a "bloom" which broke through the paint and spoilt the figure. In extreme cases, the figure would actually disintegrate. This may be what we are seeing with the tracks. The old Airfix HO figures are all made in a form of styrene rather similar to DS, as are most toy type figures. I have noticed in the case of some old 1/32 Airfix styrene figures that were given me years ago which have languished in the garage, that they have become embrittled and small details like bayonets and rifle barrels have broken off.
This is a similar issue to "lead rot" or "lead disease" which old time figure painters will be familiar with. Collectors, particularly those who lived in humid climates (eg the Far East), frequently had their painted white metal figures show a "bloom" which broke through the paint and spoilt the figure. In extreme cases, the figure would actually disintegrate. This may be what we are seeing with the tracks. The old Airfix HO figures are all made in a form of styrene rather similar to DS, as are most toy type figures. I have noticed in the case of some old 1/32 Airfix styrene figures that were given me years ago which have languished in the garage, that they have become embrittled and small details like bayonets and rifle barrels have broken off.
j76lr
Joined: September 22, 2006
KitMaker: 1,081 posts
Armorama: 1,066 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 04:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextMaybe it depends on the paints/weathering materials being put on them? I spray mine with Vallejo acrylics and use pigment powders for weathering and so far so good. I can see that anything using a solvent such as white spirit or alcohol might affect them, since they are just a type of plastic.
A soft, Green Army man kind of plastic.
I`ve used AK track wash and AK rust . everything is fine ?
Had some for years Tony so far so good ?
Lou,that track wash is pretty hot,maybe down the road they brittle up and crack
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 09:35 PM UTC
It's pretty clear that Dragon has moved on from Magic Tracks and is not concerned about kits that sit in your stash for years. Uncaring? Maybe.
DG0542
Joined: March 04, 2015
KitMaker: 125 posts
Armorama: 125 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 09:36 PM UTC
You do still get magic track.
I have the SU-76i and it has DS Track.
I also bought the SU-76i Command Version which has Magic Track.
So they do release it.
I have the SU-76i and it has DS Track.
I also bought the SU-76i Command Version which has Magic Track.
So they do release it.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 09:46 PM UTC
Well, there's obviously a problem. If folks stop buying kits because of that problem, then an uncaring attitude is a problem for the manufacturer. As for me, my DS track deteriorated within three years of manufacture in the box. As folks have said, other kits in the past have had similar problems. I've been modeling since 1959, and even have a couple of kits that are that old that have no problems. But, I've also had some Frog and Airfix kits that melted in the boxes too. However there's a big difference between a .29 Airfix kit from "the dawn" of model building, and a state of the art $60 Dragon kit with crappy track. I wish Dragon would pay attention. If you have the money to spend, you can of course replace the tracks, but why not just listen to the customer in the first place and make everyone happy?
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 11:46 PM UTC
There may be a great difference in tooling and price but the chemistry of the basic material still remains the same as that 50 year old kit. If they spend all this money on a "new" flexible vinyl compound why does it have all the problems of the old compound?
There is no excuse for new chemistry suffering from such old problems and that has nothing to do with price point or state of the art and every thing to do with very basic quality control, research and chemistry.
There is no excuse for new chemistry suffering from such old problems and that has nothing to do with price point or state of the art and every thing to do with very basic quality control, research and chemistry.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 02:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
There is no excuse for new chemistry suffering from such old problems and that has nothing to do with price point or state of the art and every thing to do with very basic quality control, research and chemistry.
Stephen,
This is my point exactly. Since some customers have deterioration problems with DS, and others do not, there must be a quality control problem or a basic formulation problem. But, I'd think realizing this, a manufacturer would do something about it. Other manufacturers like Bronco and Academy have made attempts to rectify problems in their kits (the Academy M3 suspension and the Bronco M24 turret for example), but Dragon keeps cranking out the same old product--even expanding its use to re-issued products. Like Bill has said, it appears DS is here to stay, while other manufacturers are going in a different direction. So we are back to the QC issue-- if your QC program is bad, you fix it, or replace the product if the QC issues can't be fixed. That's how most companies stay in business. Dragon has also missed the boat on some detail and shape issues recently. I used to buy their products without questioning what's in the box, but now I look elsewhere first, and Dragon has become a last resort for me. I wonder though if they really care, as Bill said. A few years ago, they made an announcement to distributors they were moving away from the hobby realm and into the fantasy-toy realm. Is their indifference based on that business model?
VR, Russ
Venko555
Joined: December 07, 2013
KitMaker: 908 posts
Armorama: 698 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 06:51 PM UTC
Just discovered that another set of DS Tracks from their Sherman Firefly IC got stiff and desintegrated, and have some nasty oily residue on them. That happened on Panther G also 
Now I have to spend extra money for AM tracks, considering their kits are not cheap.
Now I have to spend extra money for AM tracks, considering their kits are not cheap.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 08:00 PM UTC
Having my first experience with the DS track. Glue the two ends together and snap.
What's the point of it being glue able if it breaks rather than bonding?
But putting on the 79 center guides worked great. It's HVSS track.
One of the things about DS is that it can be used for toys and 1/6 accessories where these issues may not be apparent. I get this feeling that if DS gets dyed in the vat this stuff may not happen. Some old time vinyl and soft plastic would have different properties depending on the dye. Black would be brittle, blue would be pliable etc.
Just a thought.
What's the point of it being glue able if it breaks rather than bonding?
But putting on the 79 center guides worked great. It's HVSS track.
One of the things about DS is that it can be used for toys and 1/6 accessories where these issues may not be apparent. I get this feeling that if DS gets dyed in the vat this stuff may not happen. Some old time vinyl and soft plastic would have different properties depending on the dye. Black would be brittle, blue would be pliable etc.
Just a thought.
petbat
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 08:09 PM UTC
Just my 2 cents. I have just built a Matchbox Citroen Legere kit for the Matchbox group build. I bought it around 1982. The rubber tyres are just like they were the day I bought it. No damage to any parts in the box. The kit has been through decades of cold weather, hot and Humid Queensland tropical Summers etc....
The material they are made from obviously is not effected by weather.
The material they are made from obviously is not effected by weather.
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 05:21 AM UTC
For years (however long DS tracks, or rubber tires, have been out there), I immediately throw them in the garbage. What that does is force me to buy aftermarket metal or resin, whether tracks or tires. If aftermarket is not available, then I wait, hoping a release comes out. If not, then I build my own alternatives.
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:44 AM UTC
Funnily enough it was my Firefly 1C that had exactly the same problem with DS tracks. There was a comment on another thread that Dragon had a faulty batch of tracks and that they had now corrected the problem.
pbennett
Joined: October 14, 2007
KitMaker: 464 posts
Armorama: 412 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 11:33 AM UTC
For what it's worth, I have used Dragon's DS tracks on many of my 1/72-scale models, and have never encountered any problems. I have heard people complaining that the material used for these tends to damage the plastic of the road-wheels. Again something I haven't experienced. I wonder whether the fact that I prime the tracks with acrylic spray, and follow with an enamel top coat is a reason for the success ... maybe.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 02:24 PM UTC
A similar thing on an unrelated item. I use to Bass fish and I liked to use an artificial worm. They come in a plastic bag and have an oily feel to the worms. At the end of the season, I tossed some in the tackle box and put the box away. I missed the next season. The season following I opened the box and there was total destruction in the box. Anything the worms touched melted. About half of my lours were destroyed. The plastic tray they were sitting in melted. What a mess. 
petbat
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 08:46 PM UTC
I guess that was a case of the 'worm has turned' Greg.
Bummer about the other lures.
Bummer about the other lures.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 09:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It's pretty clear that Dragon has moved on from Magic Tracks and is not concerned about kits that sit in your stash for years. Uncaring? Maybe.
WHY would DRAGON or ANY other model manufacturer care about anything that modelers want or "need"..? MONEY is the great motivator.
I've already said the following countless times in NUMEROUS ARMORAMA threads:
"If you guys don't like "DS" Tracks, invest in some after-market Tracks of your own choosing..."
Quit playing the same old song...
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 09:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
For what it's worth, I have used Dragon's DS tracks on many of my 1/72-scale models, and have never encountered any problems. I have heard people complaining that the material used for these tends to damage the plastic of the road-wheels. Again something I haven't experienced. I wonder whether the fact that I prime the tracks with acrylic spray, and follow with an enamel top coat is a reason for the success ... maybe.
No.
I have several of these tracks. NONE of them have been used and all, except one pair, are still in their sealed plastic "bag".
Some of them look OK and some of them have leaked some kind of oily residue. The "oil" is clearly visible inside the sealed plastic "bag". Those that have leaked have become brittle and are falling apart, bending the plastic "bag" 90 degrees around my thumb broke up the track inside the "bag".
Wrapping them around an idler or sprocket would break them up into small crumbs.
and
Note that the crumbs are still inside the sealed plastic "bag", the oily residue is hard to see but it is in there.
These tracks have NOT been tortured by any paints or solvents of any type. Whatever caused this deterioration was inside that sealed plastic "bag" when they sealed it at the factory.
The tracks in their sealed "bag" have been inside the Dragon box since they were purchased, stored above freezing temperatures and not over 35 degrees centigrade (doesn't get warmer than that in Sweden ...)
One thing is certain: all of the DS tracks in my stash will get replaced. Every single one.
/ Robin
Venko555
Joined: December 07, 2013
KitMaker: 908 posts
Armorama: 698 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 10:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextIt's pretty clear that Dragon has moved on from Magic Tracks and is not concerned about kits that sit in your stash for years. Uncaring? Maybe.
WHY would DRAGON or ANY other model manufacturer care about anything that modelers want or "need"..? MONEY is the great motivator.
They should care, because we are paying those money
Same reason now my money goes to Meng, RYE and others
Regards!
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Monday, June 17, 2019 - 11:48 PM UTC
If it was a bad batch of material for the DS track, then we should be able to figure out when it occurred by purchase date. Can you remember about when you purchased the affected kits? 
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 12:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If it was a bad batch of material for the DS track, then we should be able to figure out when it occurred by purchase date. Can you remember about when you purchased the affected kits?
The more recent, the better. My M4A3 105MM kit has no problem and also has parts added to rectify the shortcomings of the original issue.
A looooong time ago one solution to prevent vinyl going bad was to seal them with primer. Might keep the tracks good beyond their expiration date but not forever.
Venko555
Joined: December 07, 2013
KitMaker: 908 posts
Armorama: 698 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 - 12:55 AM UTC
I bought my kits 7-8 years ago, interesting is that the DS from Tiger I 6383, which I didn't use, are still in good condition.
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