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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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Rust streaks on AFVs - why?
Viper_msk
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Moscow City, Russia
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 08:43 PM UTC
Hi everyone, I'd appreciate if someone could explain why putting so many rust streaks on a typical AFV model became nearly a tradition lately?

No, I'm not talking about specifics of the "Spanish style" (Mig Jimenez and Co.) which, at least as far as I could guess, assumes that the more of different "effects" you put on the model the better (and more "realistic") it should become.

I just wanted to understand why so many of our fellow modelers think that paint chips always cause rust streaks on a typical AFV.

I personally saw a lot of real tanks and halftracks exposed to some severe weathering, I have studied lots of archive photos - and my personal experience was that armor steel does not get rusted easily.

The last example that I could see was about a year ago - when in the Armed Forces Museum in Moscow, Russia several tanks had their bare metal armor fully exposed (all paint and underlying primer coats were completely removed during the restoration work) to rains, etc. for over a month - and there was nothing near to what we could see leaking from under those tiny paint chips on many models
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 09:32 PM UTC
Model painting styles go through stages and it is really a stage that has hung around, I do admit that this one does have long legs when it comes to how long his finishing techique is with us, but like dry brushing it will become less used over time. as for why do we do it? I think it is a case of many modellers do it and it adds some interesting colour to some areas.
spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:31 PM UTC
I think it just looks good. The ugly truth of modelling is that the real vehicles rarely look as interesting when you "shrink" them down to 1/72 or 1/35. Weathering might not be realistic, but it adds some extra to the model -and weirdly somehow it does make them look more real.


I mean most tanks in WWII did not even function long enough to get faded paint; they were knocked out pretty quick. But regardless they were always kept clean (so excessive dirt is out), the paint touched up, etc. Yet if you build one, it would look a bit less interesting than the models built with more dirt, paintchips and rust.

Modern tanks are even worse: they are kept in perfect shape (except for the millions of T-72s and others rusting away in their depos), they don't normally rust, anyway, and if you built them like that, people would think you skipped on weathering. So you add dust, sand, scratches, whatever.
KevPak
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:37 PM UTC
Yeah - it's probably overdone by a lot of modellers but it does occur - usually in vehicles that have been in service for quite some time. CHeck out the schurzen on this jgpz IV captured in Normandy:

pablo_g
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Wojewodztwo Slaskie, Poland
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:43 PM UTC
Hello,
Rust-colored stains can easily be seen in old cars for which no one cares, probably from here it came Unpainted steel surface exposed to weathering sooner or later begin to rust so flowing rain will do bleed A few months in difficult conditions, doing his front the images of the era, they are usually in about poor quality so you do not always reflect the real picture In war, no one cares more about the appearance of the vehicle as indicated by the pictures showing the example torn off parts of tanks and even missing wheels especially during massive battles Finish the model must depend on the circumstances in which she operated, if he was taking part in a number of monthly heavy battles will battered, incomplete and even rusty especially during the rainy autumn weather.

Paweł
18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:48 PM UTC
I agree with the rusting. I do a light bit of it sometimes if I think it's appropriate. Desert vehicles are often depicted with rust, which is fine to a degree, but streaking requires rain, ergo lots of streaking requires...lots of rain.
And once again, as recently as yesterday, I made a comment about a build that had rust where no rust can exist - on aluminum.
And to some extent you're right about things just not rusting that quickly. I "detab" motorcycle frames on a regular basis. It might take weeks for me to bust out a file and remove the welds and touch up with paint. In many cases the bare metal shows very little to no rust at all. And that's sitting in my driveway exposed to the elements.
tnker101
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:51 PM UTC
I was a tank Commander and the amount of chipping and rusting is a "fashion trend" currently. Streaks of mud, fuel and other organic and non organic matter were common on tanks. If you see the old tanks sitting guard out in the weather at military bases and Armories, there is very little rusting. Plus during WWII what was the life span of a AFV, many did not last to weather as we model them. Just my 2 cents worth.
Axis23
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 10:56 PM UTC
When I think of weathering and rust on AFV should be, I imagine it would be similar to what occurs on modern construction equipment like bulldozers and excavators.
When ever I see them on construction sites I take note of the effects of use they have. It seems to me its more of scuffs and scratches with a close match to a burnt umber color.
Dirt, dust, and streaks from rain, bright metal on worn tracks and drive wheels. But rust or rust streaks don't seem to be common.
lentorpe
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Posted: Friday, February 13, 2015 - 11:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

(Andras)--- (...) The ugly truth of modelling is that the real vehicles rarely look as interesting when you "shrink" them down to 1/72 or 1/35. Weathering might not be realistic, but it adds some extra to the model -and weirdly somehow it does make them look more real. (...)


I think you nailed it.

Weathering our models, even in excess, is something that simply helps reducing their toy-likeness. In my country we use to say something like "the more sugar you put, the sweeter". I will avoid pedantic "artistic" speech, but expressing the material of the original is a plus for the model... an olive drab painted flat piece of sanded Wood looks just the same as an olive drab painted plate of steel. We need the rust and/or scratches to "feel" the steel. It is more or less the same that happened many years ago when models of WW1 aircraft showed extreme "starving cow ribs" effect. It was considered that overdoing that effect was preferable in order to reinforce the information of how the real thing was actually built.
sgtsauer
#065
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 12:44 AM UTC
Weathering and rust on modern AFV's is way overdone in my opinion.

I think German AFV's are often overdone also. German vehicles were getting destroyed or captured as fast as the factories could churn them out. I can see some severe weathering effects on some stuff prior to the Krsk time frame maybe. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.
Viper_msk
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Moscow City, Russia
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 01:26 AM UTC
Thank you very much for your opinions, gentlemen.

Fully agree that we should separate rust in particular from weathering in general.

Yes, weathering helps us all move away from "toyness" of models, but in my strong belief it should be done with common sense in mind. And rust is one of many things that usually gets severely overdone.

Some rusted surface here and there might be ok (like some spots "somewhere in the corners" etc.) but rust STREAKS - as if this poor vehicle is bleeding with rust - are almost always a huge factual error. Even if it looks good.

But, again, a very interesting discussion on liberal arts vs. full realism

P.S. I almost always have the same feeling about overdoing mud - but this is not related to how realistic a model would look. I think that too much mud simply hides some of the model's beauty, some of its true self. But that's another story...

Viper_msk
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Moscow City, Russia
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 01:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Weathering and rust on modern AFV's is way overdone in my opinion.

I think German AFV's are often overdone also. German vehicles were getting destroyed or captured as fast as the factories could churn them out. I can see some severe weathering effects on some stuff prior to the Krsk time frame maybe. Just my 2 cents.


Not only that. In general, extensively over-weathered vehicles look like they were first in service for several decades without any repairs (and even paint refreshes), then abandoned at some ditch for another couple of decades, and only then inspired some modeler
yeahwiggie
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Dalarnas, Sweden
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 01:39 AM UTC
Fashion or artistic license....
meaning not knowing what you are doing, but everybody else does it, so follow it or not really caring, but it makes the model indeed a lot more visually appealing.

tayc
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Queensland, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 01:55 AM UTC
I often tell my art students, quoting Picasso, that "art is not truth, it is a lie that helps us realize the truth" and I guess this, to some extent applies to our finishing techniques. While it is useful to apply techniques that show the difference between materials such as metal, rubber, canvas and wood and some basic grime, dust and wear and tear, I tend to avoid excessive weathering. I have a basic set of techniques that I use to take away what would otherwise be a "concourse" or straight off the production line appearance. However, I must admit to being surprised by the heavy weathering applied in some cases. I would have thought that discipline, SOPs and crew pride meant that rust in particular would not remain for long if it appeared on many vehicles apart from regular contact surfaces like tracks, even under operational conditions.
sategner
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 02:16 AM UTC
In my opinion the real vehicle is an expensive item and was not left to deteriorate to the point of rust anyway, but as was also mentioned we all have a different interpretation of what's an attractive finish in our eyes and will finish a model to that spec.
I have never understood the point of buying expensive metal track links only to cover them in mud, may as well have used the kit supplied tracks anyway. Taking this a bit further, a lot of aftermarket items look good in a pre-painted photograph but once painted who can tell?
firstcircle
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 03:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I almost always have the same feeling about overdoing mud - but this is not related to how realistic a model would look. I think that too much mud simply hides some of the model's beauty, some of its true self. But that's another story...


While reading this thread I was thinking, yes, too much rust, but probably not enough mud. And I think it is for the reason given - that it covers up the model, and I'm sure there's a paranoia around the possibility that mud is covering up poor construction or painting. However it is not hard to find photos of AFVs with lots of mud caked on.

Not sure however about mud hiding the "true self" - if part of its duty is to get covered in mud but still be able to operate (after all, that's one of the reasons for using tracks) then that is a part of its true self.

Squelch.
BBD468
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 09:55 AM UTC
I personally dont use alot of rust like ive done in the past. However, this is a hobby and artistic license should be encouraged as it allows for learning new techniques and the like and does ad visual interest and its supposed to be fun....unless your building for ultra realism. I go to 3-4 model shows each year and i have yet to see an armored vehicle that was clean as a whistle as if just washed or new place and is so only Bronze at best. Outside that i think its all about having fun with your build, learning new methods and techniques and if YOU are happy with it.....what else matters. I build my models for me and my taste...some models that ive went the extra weathering mile i take to shows and some that i just build for fun i dont. To each his own eh. You do you and ill do me and thats all that matters.

Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.

Gary
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:55 AM UTC
Well I'm not a huge fan of excessive rust, and agree that some models, particularly moderns may be a little overdone. I do like looking at artistically finished models though, as do many others apparently.

There's also a distinction between what happens in the field where combat readiness and not paint are the priority and what happens on the base where there's a CSM on the warpath and you better have everything clean and shiney ....

A few pics (web sourced and posted for discussion purposes only) that may or may not show moderns with rust, mud and chipping, yes evil chipping ! (got plenty more in my stash too)

cheers
Brent



Viper_msk
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Moscow City, Russia
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 02:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not sure however about mud hiding the "true self" - if part of its duty is to get covered in mud but still be able to operate (after all, that's one of the reasons for using tracks) then that is a part of its true self.


Maybe I was not 100% clear on what I meant by a "true self". Let me be more specific now.

I meant that when building models modelers usually pay lots of attention not only to how it looks in general (= to weathering and painting), but also to how precisely it represents the prototype.

A prototype could be, depending on what is being built, either a specific unit (e.g. the one specific vehicle that was seen on photos, etc.) or just a "standard" unit of a particular time of production (e.g. an STZ T-34/76 made in Aug. 1942; or a KV-2 mod. 1940 built Oct.-Nov. 1940, etc.).

All these units have loads of unique "facial features" - like type of track links used, type of road and support wheels, type and shape of fenders, hull plates, number / location / type of stowage boxes, weapons type and location, even turret weld numbers / locations, etc. Features that are so bold and "screaming" that errors there look as obvious as seeing Luke Skywalker with AK-47 instead of a lightsaber

And correctly replicating those facial features is one of the most important aspects (if not THE most important one) of building a model of a particular prototype - of course, if one wants to build a TRUE authentic _model_, and not just "glue together a tank".

If all of this is covered by extensive mud, all of the defining characteristic of a particular model, its facial features, are hidden. Thus ruining days and months of precious work of studying a particular prototype and then correctly replicating it in a model.
Lisec
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Croatia Hrvatska
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 03:05 PM UTC
@Brent Watterson

haha thats the same Abrams i thought about when i started reading the OPs text
andromeda673
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 07:40 AM UTC
Because AK makes products and markets the crap out of them. Look at how they package colors, they change one or two of the colors in one kit, then it becomes another one. I'd like to try their streaking products, but I have a hard time justifying it.
DaGreatQueeg
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 08:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Because AK makes products and markets the crap out of them. Look at how they package colors, they change one or two of the colors in one kit, then it becomes another one. I'd like to try their streaking products, but I have a hard time justifying it.


I don't think their products (or anyone's) are particularly required to get good results. They're just convenient and take some of the trial and error out of the process. All of my weathering/streaking is done using the same acrylics and basic oils I paint and pin wash with.




Quoted Text

@Brent Watterson -
haha thats the same Abrams i thought about when i started reading the OPs text


Yeah I love that Abrams! I tried to replicate the same look and weathering on my 1/48th M1 ......


Brent
dogstar
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 11:39 AM UTC
And here's the exception to prove the rule...

This has nothing to do with in-service AFVs but it is a great example of extreme weathering.

BBD468
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 11:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And here's the exception to prove the rule...

This has nothing to do with in-service AFVs but it is a great example of extreme weathering.




LMAO!!! That photo is great!!! I feel sorry for that Sub....he dont know whats comin!
Barlas
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Posted: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 - 12:07 AM UTC
Because each different effect adds more interest to the model. So there is nothing wrong about rust streaks (or any other effect).
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