Hi Bill

Maybe this thread would help ?

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/172959&page=1

I've noticed that the M113's in your pics have the earlier, thinner headlight guards...

H.P.

Hi Bill,

I am not a great expert on this vehicle from a purely functional perspective, but I believe that the additional levers enable the driver to execute extremely tight turns (turns on a dime so to speak). Now that you mentioned them not being mounted on the early tracks, I suddenly realize that I have probably made a mistake on my model, since mine depicts a very early M113 from the early 60's and should probably not have them.

The external differences between the petrol driven M113 and the diesel M113A1 are probably more numerous than this, but here are a few tell-tale signs (bearing in mind that M113's could have been converted to M113A1's at some point and as such could potentially still have had some of the early features. It is also possible that some petrol M113's had the later features, how's that to confuse everything?)

So, this is very general.

The gas powered M113's had an oval (inspection?) plate under the fuel filler cap, the M113A1 did not:

M113:



M113A1:

http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/dan_hay/m113a1/images/m113a1_096_of_132.jpg


The trim vane on the M113A1 had an extension along its top edge which the early M113's did not have, as visible in this picture (I believe the extension was made of metal) :

http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/dan_hay/m113a1/images/m113a1_023_of_132.jpg

A little more difficult to see, but the exhaust grill on the M113 was a single piece, whereas on the M113A1 it was split into two "halves" (well, not quite halves). I think the actual exhaust was sometimes relocated as well, but I could be wrong.

M113A1:

http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/dan_hay/m113a1/images/m113a1_079_of_132.jpg

Again, I am sure there were variations to this depending on whether vehicles were converted or newly produced, just to muddy the waters a little :-)

I hope I am not leading you and Lukasz astray here, but this is my understanding of some of the differences. I admit that I could be wrong as well, in which case I am sure someone will correct me.

Hope that can be of help. :-)

Edit: Frenchy beat me to it, his post is much more informative and extensive. :-)

Thanks, Frenchy. That tells me all I wanted to know (and more!) about the Diesel tracks. So maybe the headlight guards are a fairly reliable clue.

Bill, as far as I noticed, Your track was named Lee Anne?

You had 105 mm recoiles gun and M113A1 version looking at the front armor plate for protecting from waves 9how it is called in English?)

Also Your version was a gas engine with white interior?

Another thing to ask: Why the side US stars was painted partial in green? Is it a paint or just some dirt?

Is Your book availble in Europe?

It's called trim vane (or splash board ) :



AFAIK it's made of plywood with metal hardware...

I guess the side stars were partially/completely painted over because they made convenient aiming points for the VC...

H.P.

Hi Sven. For someone who claims not to be an expert, you have a lot of good info! I see a couple things in the photos you sent that vary from my old track, but if there ever was a vehicle with a myriad of variations, the M113 is it! I don't specifically remember the oval plate around the gas cap on "Lee-Anne", but then it has been 47 years since I last saw her!

I have another theory about that plate, though. After I sank my track we had to clean, recondition, or replace damned near everything! By we, I mean mainly me and a couple of mechanics, and it was all done at a fire-support base in the field. Among the replaced items was the rubber fuel bladder inside the shell of the tank, as it was contaminated with river water and silt. I believe that plate and the bolts attached the bladder to the filler pipe. That rectangular access plate inside the vehicle where we hung the Playmate of the Month was removed and the empty, but still heavy and unwieldy bladder had to be manhandled through it.

In truth, the mechanics did most of the work on that particular task. I was busy lying on my back in the mud under the engine compartment, removing the access plates and draining the six different fluid reservoirs - engine, transmission, transfer case, two final drives -- I've forgotten one- differential? - but someone will remind me.

I then had to refill them all from up top. That would have been bad enough, but before I could get all the milkiness out of the oil and fluids and pass the chief mechanic's inspection, I had to replace them each six times!

At the end of one of the most tiring days in my life I was covered from head to foot in a gooey combination of petroleum products and Vietnamese mud. Of course, since we were in the boondocks, there was no such thing as a shower - even a cold one, at hand. The river had been left behind. I had to do the best I could to scrape the crud off until the next monsoon rain.

My poor old girl making like the Titanic...

https://flic.kr/p/vZDNRu


Here is some of the resulting mess...

https://flic.kr/p/vHMPZP


Our gas tracks did have a metal channels top and bottom on the plywood trim vanes, thought not as wide as the one in your shot. This was back when I still had a trim vane, obviously.

https://flic.kr/p/v4W71x

Hi Łukasz

Yes, I named my track Lee Anne, after my girlfriend back home.

The "big stovepipe" is the M40A1 106mm Recoilless Rifle, not 105


As Frenchy said, it is indeed the trim vane. But is is not armor, except perhaps against thrown eggs. It is made of 3/4 inch plywood and its only purpose was to keep the front of the track from nose-diving because of its slope. Due to my experience as a submarine track driver, I can tell you that the nose does indeed want to dive without a trim vane. While it was afloat, about halfway across the river, the water was right at the top of the front slope. As the leaks in the access plate gaskets overwhelmed the single, puny bilge pump that still worked, the water rose and as soon as it started to get sucked into the intake grill on top, I switched off the engine and stood up on my seat. And then the picture was snapped by a buddy on shore.

My track was an early M113 with a Chrysler V8 gas engine. The M113A1 was the Diesel version.

The white US star is not painted. It is smeared with mud because it made a too visible and convenient aiming point for RPGs!

Both of my books, CIB and ROE, are available from Amazon.com. They do ship to Europe. But if you want to read them in Kindle format, you need not have them shipped. They will be uploaded to your computer or other Kindle device at no extra charge. Here is the direct link to the Amazon page where they are found:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Bill+Rambow

Thanks for asking.

I highly recommend that you read both books. I have read both and found them to be hard to put down because Bill's writing style and character development draws the reader into the story being told. Although the book is historical fiction, it gives an accurate look at what life was like in 2d Battalion 47th Infantry (Mechanized) in Vietnam in 1967 and early 1968. Since I mainly model Vietnam subjects (mainly figures and figure dioramas), reading these books inspired me to cross over to armor modeling. By trying to recreate the atmosphere in which mech grunts lived, a certain "life" was brought to the figures and to the diorama as a whole which continues on with my current projects. It is one thing to look at pictures and recreate what you see. It is another to do so with the addition of a personal perspective of what life was like operating in such vehicles and conditions.
Cheers,
James

Hi all,

With the splendid help from Sven I can tommorow start the real job with the interior.

Thank You very much Sven!

I'm going to reproduce the cables and cords inside, and some photo-etch parts from Zelda's interior by Eduard.

Tomorow I'll post some progres shots of model.

Stay tuned!

Hello again,

his time just like I mentioned yesturday, I'm showing some of the interior work.

I used the resin sended by Sven Young and tryied to match all elements with the Tamyia interior. I added some cables on the walls. Also I've used some PE in the driver seat area (Bill I hope everything is as it was back then in the Nam tracks You used to drive).




Sorry for photos quality, but I used olny phone.

My pleasure Łukasz,

Glad that the parts could be of help. Did something break on the left hand wall section, or did you remove a piece yourself? My apologies if it broke in transport.

Keep up the good work, nice to see this build and I am glad that you also put some wires in, this helps to make the interior look more realistic :-)

Hello,

I have question about the driver compartment.
The photo shows IDF M113. Can anyone can tell me taht two elements were in the NAM tracks as well?



First the front levers or a device to lover the trim vane?
Sven, you've scratchbuild this part but for the Svedish version (later than the NAM tracks. So it is a part that can be added later.

The secound thing is a pocket? or other metal part on the wall. Was it in the NAM tracks as well?

Hello Łukasz,

The two levers are (from what I understand) pivot levers which allow the driver to execute very tight turns/pivots. I believe these were a later modification, and as such I think I have made a mistake including them on my track since it is a very early vehicle (early 1960's). For your M113A1 I am fairly sure you can use them.

The other part is probably just a little box to hold documents or the driver's personal stuff. Ok for your track as well :-)

Did a little research and found this:

http://www.military-today.com/apc/m113a3.htm

The pivot steer feature did not come into use in the M113 until the A3 model, introduced in 1987. That explains why I was not familiar with it; I got out of the Army in 1970.

So, no track used in Vietnam would have these levers. That area of the front of the driver's compartment should have nothing but cables.

Darn, I was WAY off putting these in my 1963 track then.

Never mind, good to know for the next one :-)

Apparently, these two pivot steer levers appeared on the M113A2 version (1979). You can see them in this A2 picture (behind the steering levers):



H.P.

Well, Frenchy, that looks pretty definitive! But so did this sentence from the source I linked above: "These differential transmissions allow the M113A3 to pivot steer, which was a new capability for the M113 FOV on the M113A3's introduction." After looking at yours ans other photos I have reason to doubt that info. Just goes to show that just because you read it on the web, doesn't make it fact!

So now I don't know what to believe! I do know they were not present on the original M113, because I had a lot of experience with them, right up to the time that the A1s came on line. But of course, that is not the point of discussion. I'm going to contact a buddy of mine who was in my company, C 2/47, at the very end of its deployment in Vietnam to see what he can tell me about the A1 model they used in Vietnam. I'll report back.

Incidentally, my Charlie Company, with two attached M48A3 Patton tanks of the 2/34th Armor, was the first unit to cross the border in the Cambodian Incursion of May 1, 1970. By this time I had been in the States in the 6th Cav for two years.

In fact I've based my post on Hunnicutt's "Bradley" book (even if the text is sometimes confusing ) and various spec sheets from the Web...

Here's a drawing from TM 9-2350-261-24P about the M113A2 :

"Figure 188. Pivot Steering Linkage and Cylinders" :



H.P.

Hi Bill,

Coulld it be that the pivot steering introduced on the A3 was not directly related to these two particular levers? I could be wrong about them and the function they had/have. Perhaps the pivot steering implemented in the A3 somehow eliminated the need for the extra levers? Didn't the A3 actually see the introduction of the steering yoke and discontinuing of the floor mounted steering levers altogether? Perhaps the extra levers were dropped at the same time?

Guessing wildly here, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the A3's had yoke steering.

The plot thickens :-)

Indeed


H.P.

That sounds like a logical theory, Sven. What we need is the input of a long-serving tracked-vehicle mechanic who worked on all of these marks of the M113!

Like many track drivers in Vietnam, I never had a day of formal driver training in the conventional sense, let alone mechanical training. The drivers who came over with the battalion at the beginning of 1967 were trained as drivers, but almost everyone else who followed them into the driver's hatch was trained on the job in-country. Like me, they were all grunts who volunteered (or were drafted)out of the squad's ranks.

One of the exceptions was my best buddy, Freddy Geremia. He had enlisted for and was trained as an Engineer Heavy Equipment Operator. When he found himself assigned to a mechanized infantry company he complained to the 1st Sergeant, "Top" informed him that the M113 APC was a piece of "heavy equipment" and promptly assigned his as the driver of C12, which he called "Baron Von Freddy".

What I knew of the mechanical workings of the M113 was from a reading of the Field Manual and OJT instruction conducted by my predecessor,followed by "the school of hard knocks".

Hello!

I'm glad that the discuscion began to evolve.

At this point, I'm happy to hear that the levers aren't neccesary and the side wall pocket is ok.

That means I can focus on other eloements of interior compartment.

Anyway, I'm quite curious abaut Your Vets news about the tracks used in the mid and late '70 in NAM.

Very interesting, Frenchy. With the switch to yoke steering and elimination of the floor-mounted lateral levers, I see they had to add upper and lower brake pedals, too. Otherwise, no laterals, no brakes.

Hi Łukasz. I've e-mailed my buddy, the Cambodian Incursion veteran, Jim Gridley, and asked about the pivot-steer as well as the interior color of his tracks. I also invited him to jump into the discussion here, if he wishes.

Talking about interior parts, the Academy fuel tank (like the one in your build I guess) is notably too long. Here you can compare it to the corrected one released by Mouse Armour :





Maybe it's not too late to shorten it a bit ?

BTW, the earlier welded-in integral fuel tank was subject to cracking and was replaced by this removable model from 1968 onwards.

H.P.