Count me in for the roll call Vinnie.

Note: there are alot of people who carried pig numbers who are not out to damage Big A. Guilt by association can be very damaging as well.

Paul,
I don't honestly know. That is what is rather frustrating in this whole mess. There are people saying one thing in public and the complete opposite to some members in private. Members who obviously don't share their goals and are informing me and others of their remarks. It's a sad state of affairs when people are going to be that duplicitous and have some agenda to tear down what all of us (including them in most cases) have built here. But I guess that is something we were use to as children. "Mine... mine. Well if I can't have it I will just destroy it then."

What I seem to hear from some of you on the fence is that you have the right to post anywhere you want and be friends with anyone you want. I COMPLETELY AGREE. But I also have the right to make certain determinations about your status here based on that. And while 90% of the people on SMW have not done anything to cause me to question their status on this site, there are a handful that have, that are actively working to cause damage to this site, and that is something I am not going to simply ignore.

Honestly you are in the 90%. But if you want to test my resolve just add "I Love Roderick" to your sig line and I will take that as proof you have made a choice to side with the 10%.

Jim

Wow, didn't expect to see such volatile responses. Personally, I think we could do with a lot less of the, leave and don't come back attitudes being displayed. I understand the attitudes being that way towards some people as they are deserved, those people have already left and moved on. Those who are posting now are not doing so in a threatening way or belittling this site etc, just questioning how things can be handled better in the future. Getting all arrogant and telling people they can like it or leave it is very far from the attitudes that I'm used to seeing here at The Big A.

Maurice, with respect, there are people who have posted in this topic, that have tried to damage us. It's what I meant by being two-faced. You are only seeing 10% in this topic. We're not telling those hypocrites to leave without good reason.

Vinnie

Maurice,
I am not sure who you are directing that at. But if it's my remarks what exactly do you think I am demanding that people "Like". I am not asking anyone to like anything. In fact I am not asking anyone to *do* anything. I am merely stating what I must do to protect this site from a handful of people who are trying to cause harm. People will make up their own minds and commit their own actions. Actions cause re-actions. And as Wildcard noted not every action is going to get the re-action that one might expect or want.

Nobody is targeting you, Bradley or Paul in this. However can we agree that by the very fact you guys are involved with that group and are obviously friends with some of those members who might have an axe to grind here that this *does* bias your opinion just a bit?

Just saying...

Jim

To answer this question, read the last line of my initial post. If you bad mouth this site anywhere, you run the risk of the webmaster not letting you back in. I've also learned since starting this post that a public show of support for someone deemed subversive to this site is bound to get you booted as well. His house, his rules.

Now if you're going to try to play the legal angle that the show of support was not specifically stated and only implied by innuendo, I'd suggest we call a spade a spade.

Jim & Vinnie,

Granted, being as I'm friends with Ben (the only one I know of personally who has been swept up in this whole banning thing) there is a definite sympathy towards his position. I also sympathize with you guys as well, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you Jim and all the staff members for all the hard work you do for this site. Most people understand the amount of time that goes into a website, I've written reviews and was an editor for game sites in the past and know how time consuming that can be alone. For that I thank you all and support you all 100%, which is why I joined the A Guard. There's a lot of great information here and great people, I like to help out in return.

I post and browse other sites, for information as well as other perspectives on things like using AB's, weathering tips, kit reviews etc. My journey always starts here and I always return here, this is the site I enjoy the most. My comments about a little less hostility were not directed to you Jim but more towards posts like what Jimbrae posted. He said and I quote, " For those who have willingly entered into this garbage (through some mistaken sense of 'loyalty') my suggestion is clear, please leave Armorama now and go to the environment you find yourself happier in. Meanwhile, please don't imagine that Armorama will be brought down by constant pinpricks.. We'll be around long after the Intellectual Dwarves have been forgotten." Since you and I had been talking about loyalty towards friends (as in my case with Ben) I can easily take that and honestly felt like it was, directed at people like myself and Steve. Since we were speaking up for Ben, not starting any fights about it or anything just were questioning you about it and we were having a fine conversation about it. This comment comes in and to be honest, seemed very 'off' for this site and from jimbrae who I respect for all the work he does on this site.

I'm definitely not looking to be a part of or cause any trouble, or have any brought my way. I'm too old for the drama and have more meaningful things to do with my time (including letting Magic Tracks continue to kick my ass lol) than waste my time or anyone else's with silly crap like internet fights. The comments like that can be taken in the wrong way since they aren't actually directed at any named persons but in the course of the thread, do feel aimed towards people who are posting now.

Just my take... Thanks all for being open to talking about things like this, it's appreciated.

Jim, I don't see how I am "obviously" friends with the people in question by merely being part of that site also... Who am I to know who has an axe to grind? No one harps to me about what their gripes are, and if they did I'm certain I would not get involved...Seems I get online and find someone has done something wrong here which to me is out of the blue, and I'd have to dig to find out what has happened...As I previously stated, they are good to chat with in regards to modelling. It doesn't mean that they're all 'thick as thieves'...
And I felt that my opinion had no bias, unless I had to verbalise that you have my support 100%...
Here I stay

Oh, and it is half 1, so g'nite

Well, Maurice, neither you, nor Paul (Nato208), nor Honeycut are, to my mind, the kind of person I was referring to. It would also be absurd to suggest that I see any 'disloyalty' being an active member of another site - I actively participate in the forums on ML for example.

No, the nub of the matter is the agenda of the few over on this other site whose sole interest is to damage Armorama. To my knowledge, there is only ONE person who has posted on this thread who has (and continues to) slyly attacked Armorama and is tied-in with the self-styled 'dissidents'.

I really think it WOULD be better for individuals like the above-mentioned just to leave and agree to differ. I feel no particular ill-will towards individual members of this new forum, I do however find some of the 'movers and shakers' (Lenz, Porter etc.) some of the most (personally) repulsive individuals it has been my misfortune to encounter anywhere on the 'web.

Any site which is formed on the foundations of nihilism is (fortunately) doomed to failure...

Count me in too Vinnie

Although I only have scant knowledge of what has gone on through reading certain posts, I have noticed there has been a certain negative atmosphere pervading the site for the last few months caused by tiny minority of individuals who are unhappy with either the way the site is run or have problems with certain members of staff.

Just speaking for myself, I am saddened that this has occured as from my personal experience I have never found either the staff or members anything but friendly and helpfull.
Jim with the input and support of the staff run this site very proffesionaly and so what if at times a few people have had their feathers ruffled because they dont like the way he reacted or he was forced to ban a few members for their actions, im sure it wasnt a decision Jim took likely or enjoyed doing.
This site is Jim's "baby" and he will do everything to protect it and not let a tiny few spoil it for the majority of the other members.
If you dont like how he runs this site or the direction he is taking it , there is a simple answer .......
Leave, find somewhere else, and allow the members who are here for genuine reasons to continue to enjoy our hobby to learn ,make friends and share our work.

So to Jim, yourself and all the other members of staff who work incredible hard giving up many hours of your spare time to make visiting this site both informative and fun and to all the members .

Thankyou Jim and co. for making The Big A the best modelling site on the net

Now back to my AFV Club Cent so I can enter if for Sept MOM


Ian

Count me as an Armorama/Jim Starkweather backer.
I also visit and post on many model related sites.

I find it disgusting that a small group would find it 'fun' to attempt to undermine Jim's efforts in making Armorama a premier modeling site.

To send an email to advertisers attempting to somehow diminish this site's credibility is nothing more than a vicious, childish prank that could have grave and long term affects on the entire Armorama community.

To condone such actions, either by cheering Roderick on or remaining silent, thus continually enabling and encouraging him and his brethren on the other site is certainly reason enough for not being welcomed here.

They are the ones who are attempting to drive the wedge and perpetuate the "them and us" mentality. The auto censoring of any reference to Armorama deeming it "the site that shall remain nameless" is a fine example of this sort of imaturity.

It is unfortunate that most of the posts in this thread (including myself) have very limited or no knowledge as to what events have actually taken place here. I know Jim Starkweather. I know that he is not the type to over react or jump the gun on anything here. If he bans a person it is for good reason.

Charles

Thanks Jim for the post, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my concerns. I hope you understand how I came to feel that way, that's one of the worst things about posting online is that you do so without the benefit of what you get in person.

Agree with you about people wasting time and effort trying to undermine people and this site. If you have a beef with this site then you should move on, same with any site or place online or in person.

I can understand the nervousness many may feel for 'choosing sides', however, in this, Vinnie is correct. All of us who have seen this business from the beginning (Cliff Hutchings, Porter's Fetish Forums, DSB, the set-up of a parallel chat-room etc., etc., etc.) are frankly tired of the whole business but more tired of the constant sniping.

To these individuals it's simple, decide, you're with the site or you're against us.

Those on the inside know precisely where you stand, at least have the cojones to come out publicly...

I have said before that I support Jim, the staff, and all the great people who make this site what it is.

I’ll admit that I knew and got along with some of the guys that left or are on the fence and I will still talk with many of them that I got alone with or considered friends.
But I have many more friends who are happy to be part of this wonderful site just like I am.

And if it hadn’t been for the site I would probably have never known any of these people.


But I will not judge the actions of Jim or the other staff members or anyone else involved.
These people have much more knowledge of what’s going on then I do and without that knowledge I don’t believe I have the right to judge or question there actions.

I do however have complete fath in Jim and the rest of the staff that they are and will do what they believe is right and beneficial to the site.
Thanks to them the site is here and I know that it still will be the next time I visit and for that they have my complete support.

Thank you for all the work you’ve done so far and keep up the good job.

Jim Rae
"To these individuals it's simple, decide, you're with the site or you're against us."

Not having a dip at ya mate, just want to know, by Individuals do you mean anyone who is on Porters site as well as here, or only those who have show ill actions towards armorama yet remain here and are on porters site?

Cheers mate

David, thanks for the opportunity to spell out something I repeated twice...

I refer the honorouble gentlemen to the points I made earlier...

righto mate, sheesh was just wondering, mustve missed it or you didnt make it crystal the first two times

I think I am being the targeted individual here. I don't know who Porter is, I never participated in DSB activites, in fact the only thing I am guilty of is some recruitment, Yes I have told some of my friends here about the oher site. But then I also have been on FineScale modeler site recruiting for this site. How do You think I found myself here. A friend on FineScale Modeler said hey Steve check out this site. I am a big ship modeler, I also recruited for Armorama over on modelwarships trying to build up the ship content here. Keith Magee and I in Dallas have hosted many free model building for kids outings. We always recruit. At every model contest held in Dallas for the past 3 years I recruit for Armorama. I recruited Ben while standing in line at the Squdron shop awiting to check out during their ope house. The people I recruited from here onto the other site are shipbuilders like me. I just want to build up the ship section over there. If I find something I lke then I share it with folks. I have not made any personal attacks against Armorama or individuals and yet I see things like "intellectual Dwarf" (I do posses 2 college degrees) and other disparaging remarks. Maurice and I both have seemingly unwisely entered this fray because our personal friend was banned. I am an Eage Scout. ONe of my charges is loyalty. I place my loyalty fiercely with my friends. I apologize for bringing the issue up. I appreciate Jim Starkweather for answering me maturly and as a man and I hope he took my questions in the same way I took his answers. I am a member of this "club" in fact I am on the staff of the ship section so I have a "vested interest" in the well being of the site. I hope I can continue to participate and serve to continue its growth and well being.

Proud to be Armorama member number 1256

Dave,
Pardon my asking but what difference does it make what Jim Rae means by those posts. He has opinons. You have opinions. Everybody has an opinion.

Guess whose opinion matters?

And I think I have been more than clear on what the site's policy is going to be on this matter from this point out.

Thanks,
Jim

Certainly not by me. On the subject of recruitment, I could understand perfectly passing the word on about another site formed with the intention of doing something different from Armorama, I do feel that passing the word around by a site that was formed by banned individuals from this site may be construed by some as a less than benevolent action?

Bearing in mind that one of those involved is the same person who was stupid enough to contact one of our 'flagship' advertisers strikes me as not the kind of place anyone would unhesitatingly recommend either..

Jim, i just wanted to be clear on what Jim meant, as ive said, to which you agreed was totally reasonable, i am not chosing any sides, i will continue to post and visit on both sites with no hidden intentions, simply because i wish to discuss models, and talk to friends.
I wasnt questioning his opinions nor saying mine were more important.
Just checking mate
Cheers

Hi everyone,
I joined Armorama over a year ago.It has bought me back to something i shouldn't of stopped 15 years ago.I like the site and it has become a part of my everyday life.I wouldn't miss it for anything!
However i don't like being told to decide which side to stand on.I am a member of various sites including the one in question.But should Armorama members who are active like myself on the other site be so seriously scrutinised for being a member there?
I don't understand any of the DSB now and never did in the past.I stay clear of that because their ideas or thoughts are not on my agenda.I'm here on Armorama and the other site for the purpose of modelling.Nothing more,nothing less.
For lack of better words this war is like kids in a sand pit,thats your side there,this is ours.The question is though is it being constructive pointing fingers at each other!
This dirty washing seems to be internally against the said site at the moment so why bring it out in the open?
No one on both sites has ever done anything wrong by me,until then I'LL be my own judge of character!
I'll continue my support of Armorama and post on any other site that i see fit as an individual who has an open mind.
I'm concerned about this whole situation and i hope the two parties can resolve the situation before it REALLY gets out of control.However,in the meantime don't punish the neutral ones who are only in this for modelling!
Isn't that what we are all here for?
Shay McKee

The 'neutrals' are NOT under any kind of doubt. Those who are, are those individuals who are saying one thing publicly and meanwhile doing their (pitiful) best to damage Armorama.

If you still have any doubts as to the honesty of these individuals, here is the letter written by Roderick Lenz after he was banned, (one of the other site's admins/moderators):




Hardly something which would instill confidence?

Well why not come out and say exactly who is under suspicion, and for what. I mean, name names. Then the rest of us who aren't under suspicion can shut up.