Steve, being English I would have probably punched him in the mouth, dragged him outside and given him a good kicking but that's the English for you

Steve,
I have actually had the idea to form an Advisory Board for some time. I think in the grand scheme of things though I would need to have a vote on such a board and potentially even a veto (considering it's my site and if the board ever did something I truly didn't believe was in the best interest of the site I would have to overrule their recommendation). Of course if I vetoed every recommendation of this board it's only logical it wouldn't be very effective at reaching consensus nor providing me with advice. In the grand scheme of things though these decisions all come down to me. In the case of your personal friend Ben (Wildcard) I am already on public record for stating exactly why he was banned. You can disagree with my decision all you like. I am sure if we did have the Advisory Board setup they might have recommended a different course of action than banning his IP address. Perhaps a warning. Either way I made what I consider a summary judgement against Ben for posting what I am sure he and many of his friends would categorize as a silly remark on another website. A website whose founder is hostile to this site, myself and many of my staff. His post was made on the DAY of our announcing that the member he was responding to tried to sabotage a relationship with one of our primary vendors by telling them:




This twisted piece of fiction is right up their with Nazi propaganda. Sure there were members that might have felt hurt about what happened with the DSB and Cliff's rant topic. Abuse? This guy doesn't have a clue in that regard. Was it abuse to spend an hour voiping with Mary on Skype to try to explain my whole position on why I did not want to see regulars of this site using other sites to launch attacks and tirades on this site? Was it abuse to temporarily suspend 3 users accounts in the hopes that they might realize that their ranting and general behaviour was childish and immature? Was it abuse to re-instate one of those users after the other 2 voluntarily asked for their accounts to be deleted? These are the abuses that Roderick could have laid claim to. His actual relationship with staff members was a cordial one until he decided to go off the deep end after the DSB lost their forum on this site.

So this is the post that Ben (Wildcard) decides to post on another site in Rodericks rather dated welcome post on the day it was annouced that Roderick was trying to damage a relationship with one of our vendors.




Sure. It's cryptic. It's perfect DSB style humor. But to me (and sorry I am the one that ultimately decides) it's a high-five to Roderick and a slap in the face to this site. It's a statement of approval. When he asked why he was having trouble accessing the site I simply sent him his quote above. To which he replied:




That was it. Nothing else. And no reply to my more detailed response. He knew what he was doing. And he is not in the least bit sorry for it either.

So where does that leave us. I know perfectly well what has been going on lately. James Porter has opened up his arms to DSB members and their friends and a handful of you have decided to stop participating in this site and start your own silly (which is what you want) little corner of the Internet. I use to like silly. I use to like the concept of the DSB. You are all perfectly capable of deciding where you want to hang your hat. I just suggest you do it and stop using this site as a recruiting ground by spreading rumors (many false) and innuendo. That is what got your club kicked from the site in the first place. If you go we will likely miss your presence on the site. And if you think I enjoy banning people you are mistaken. I actually miss many of the people that unfortunately left me no other options but to remove or limit their access to the site. I like diversity. It's just a shame that some people can't play well with others.

Regards,
Jim

Well, I'm from Jersey originally so I'd probably just shoot the guy first and ask questions later. lol Fuggedaboutit...

So you and others are working diligently to have him banned on your new site I take it? And after this happened you all called his action into question on this site and made it clear you didn't approve of his behaviour?

In fact... not one of this sites new regulars made even one mention of Rodericks actions. They just continued to respond and interact with him as if nothing had happened.

Hmm....makes you wonder don't it?

Jim

Ben's part of our local 'Big A club', I heard about the incident of his post and read the contents of the post and responses in print at our monthly meeting this weekend. Honestly, I think it was misread Jim by you, especially after talking with Ben. He IS a goon, meaning a clown in the good sense and he admits it. Ben was shocked that his post got him banned, I was too and didn't read anything into it. I can understand where you're at in the way of frustration, I've been there in other ways (and continue to take abuse as a hockey league director for silly things too lol) and definitely understand the frustration level.

Not siding with any 'group', just concerned over a banning that easily could have been avoided. Don't worry, I slapped Ben for you at the meeting, the big goon that he is. lol The Big A is our home and we love it here, just wanting to assist in the matter of 'family spats'. At least for my part I know that's how I feel, I know there are some that just won't back off on the attacks. Bans are an effective means of keeping the riff-raff away, sometimes they can be avoided through discussion by both parties.

Oh... and for the record I did not ban ZzZGuy. He asked for his account to be removed. If he is saying otherwise he is lying.

I would post his emailed request here but it was filled with explatives.



Jim

Maurice,
I respect your trust in the guy. I obviously don't have the benefit of ever meeting him. That said with 15 years of online experience I can honestly say that someones online persona is sometimes a lot more "the real them" than what you get in person. I have TRIED to see an innocent post in the quote above. I have. I debated a long time on what to do in this case. But in the end it's really this simple.

If you want to be friendly with those who are trying to tear this site down (Roderick for example) than you are not welcome here.

And even if you take out the sinister aspects of that post, there is still the obvious camaraderie to it. If Ben had come to me and recanted or even tried to explain why he would so obviously seek-out and post that remark on the day this happened... well I won't speculate but I may have simply made his IP ban temporary. As it is his account is not "banned". He just can't get to the site via his normal ISP connection. He can at this moment go over to a buddies house (or the library) and access the site. The question I would ask is... if he does, what is he going to say or do?

Regards,
Jim

Ok, here where i stand on the goings on.
Personally, im happy with armorama, thats not saying im happy with everything about it, but really any site you visit so regularly and get so involved in you will find things you personally think could be done differently.
However, when it comes down to it, look where we are, there are no major problems here, i get along with all of you really well, that includes the Staff.
Though i was a bit bummed alot of my friends have left or been kicked, it's not my place to say wether or not i think that was good or bad.
But like i said before, i'll say it again, i think Armorama is still a great place, and i will continue coming here.
I will however also continue visiting and posting on Scale Model World, to me, it's not the enemy of armorama nor is this the enemy of that site, they are simply another url i can type into my internet to go see good models, and talk to good people.
I wont get involved in the somewhat gang mentality that seems to be going on between SMW and here, i will just post my work, post my comments, and keep on doing what ive been doing since 2002.
Jim.S, hope your ok with that, don't see any reason why you wouldn't be
But i do have a question for you mate, a serious one, and im not trying to cause trouble or be a smart alleck i honestly just want to know...

you say this a little up the page... "James Porter has opened up his arms to DSB members and their friends and many of you have decided to stop participating in this site and start your own silly (which is what you want) little corner of the Internet."

Now, i remember a little bit ago you were pretty peeved about, i think it mightve been Rodders, "slandering" the site, now though hims ending e-mails about was way worse, isnt calling their site silly not too nice either?
I mean fair enough SMW and Armorama have conflicted alot recently, but if you really want all this rubbish and tension to end, why not break complete contact with them, and not speak of them here again, totally distance yourself from them?
Just wondering mate.
Cheers

Dave,
You missed my point. They *want* to have a site that is less serious and one that they can be silly. Please give me a little credit that I have not been asleep for 4+ years on that score.

As for pigmodelworld (as I am affectionately calling it) I guess I should be flattered that Armorama has at last produced a real fork. And by that I mean that most other large sites have had a group of members break off an start a new site. That time has come for us. I wish it well! Drat... who am I kidding I hope it goes down in flames. :-)

Cheers,
Jim

Jim I belong to many sites and particiapte in their forums. (Fine Scale Modeler, and Modelwarships to name a couple) Yes Ben is a personal friend of mine and like Moe says, he is a character and a clown. We have a club here in Dallas and every member is part of armorama. Most of us have also joined scale model world as well, it aids us in communcation between members on events. What all happened is what happened. I still post and contribute to this site. I do not feel that I have done anything wrong, nor do I think you feel I have either. As I stated, my purpose is a proposal to set up an advisory board (better term?) I feel that I have made my point and don't want to flog what I consider a non-issue. Thank you for respecting my opinons as I do yours. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but I think we agree on the basic tenants I'm a modeer first, I invite you to go to my initial post in scale model world where I state
"I do not get involved with office politics or flame wars" I don't want to do that here either. So if offense was taken, send me a PM and we can discuss an issue in private.

Jim,

Reading this thread I come again to the conclusion that it is very difficult for human beings to behave reasonably and respectfully towards each other.

I visit the kitmaker network to read about models, to find tips and techniques and to feel part of some happy community with a mutual interest.

Apparently and unfortunately, there is also a dark side of competiveness and jealousy.

I have some idea of the huge effort that you have put in making this site and I am astonished to see what you are pulling of (alone???) at the moment. I therefore fully understand that this is YOUR baby and that you are prepared to defend it "whatever it takes".

But hey, I have a question. What is this site exactly for you?

> Is it your way to make a living? (nothing wrong with that of course)

> Is it a testbase for software to be used professionaly elsewhere? (nothing wrong with that either)

> Is it nothing more than a hobby?

In the last case I seriously wonder when you are sleeping and if you have some time left for anything else.

I am not asking these questions to get an answer (it's none of my business really) but becasue I sense in some of your comments on this forum and particularly in this topic that some frustration is seeping through and if there is one mortal danger for this site then it is you getting frustrated with it.

I wonder where this frustration comes from. Is it only related to those few people that behave in an unappropriate manner, or is the hard work taking its toll?

Again, don't answer, just think about it.

I do not like that much the comments like "its up to Jim" or " It is Jim his site and he does what he wants with it". While this is basically true it is putting a heavy responsibility on the shoulders of one man that has to program everything, monitor everything, manage everything, decide everything, kick out the a**holes and take the blame for it...

An internet site like this is not only a technical achievement, its the construction, and more importantly the maintenance, of an involved community. With 20k members and growing, this community seems to need clear and public rules, a structured way to listen to the wishes of the users, a management board looking at the technical as well as all the other aspects.

This to share the burden, to reach decisions in a serene way, to have it common knowledge that certain behaviour will automatically lead to being banned from the site (so that people know in advance what they can expect and can't play the victim) without the need of discussing this for every individual case at length in the forum.

For the uninformed visitor it might at certain times seem like we are fighting more (luckily only with words) on this site than we are making models. Well this is a bit exagerated but you know what i mean.

Feel free to ignore this, much longer than I expected it to be, comment but please don't ban me from the site for this, I love it too much.

Drabslab............boy have you got it all wrong. :-)

Vinnie

now this is a very informative and useful comment

No it's not. Your post however, gives one the impression that you discount the hard work from all the editorial staff, moderators and contributors.

Vinnie

Or how whatever is said or written can always be interpreted in the most negative way possible disregarding the, in this case maybe a bit challenging, but in any case very constructive meant comments.

I was not addressing moderators or editors or contributors whom I all respect for what they do. I was (as thought was clear) talking about the hard task of 1 person.

As it's obvious (to anyone with the meanest intelligence ) that Porter and company have created their site as little more than a platform against Armorama, I would ask that those who believe in 'giving him ANOTHER chance' to consider the following quote:




Personally, i'm suspicious of anyone, who, having seen the antics of Roderick, Porter or any of the rest of the emotionally challenged who 'jumped ship' can feel comfortable by their presence on this other site. It may be overstating it to say it, but I do tend to get the feeling that some may simply be biding their time and that we're going to be facing a continuous period of sniping.

For those who have willingly entered into this garbage (through some mistaken sense of 'loyalty') my suggestion is clear, please leave Armorama now and go to the environment you find yourself happier in. Meanwhile, please don't imagine that Armorama will be brought down by constant pinpricks.. We'll be around long after the Intellectual Dwarves have been forgotten.

As to this tiresome 'freedom of expression' nonsense, Freedom of speech means being adult enough to know when to stop. Liberty comes with a correspondingly high-price - responsibility....

I have seen this situation digress further and further...

For my part, being a witness to the antics of both parties. It is truly sad to see. Both sides continue fuel the fire. It is clear to me that both sides have reached a breaking point, drawn lines in the sand. Us against them. It is all a bunch of crap! I see many words being flung around very carelessly... Of which the majority of you who continue to engage in this battle I doubt know the true meaning of those words... Accusations of this, and that... Lets see who can undermine the other the most. I have seen friends on both sides have their names smeared about.

So where does this end?

Where does it leave the rest of us?

People who want to model, and take part in serious discussions related to the hobby. I will not be forced to take anyone's side.

The mark of truth - This will be those who can agree to disagree. It will be those who will not continue to lower themselves and engage in this mayhem...



For my part I'm taking a hiatus.

For those that are my friends, will remain my friends. You will know where you can find me... I will continue to watch from the sidelines, I will continue to visit the sites I choose. Contribute where I disire.

Regards
Paul

I have recently joined Scalemodelworld at the request of an Armorama member, and upon having a look was surprised to see quite a few members familiar to me... This is actually my first time in joining another site, having been an active member of Armorama since mid 2003(?) I did not know at first who had set the site up, or for what reasons (suspicious or otherwise) but basically, all I want to say is that there are some nice blokes there, and sure there is some DSB banter, but this has nothing to do with me there, just as it never had anything to do with me here.... (It is possible to be on-site and not even run into these threads)
I will only judge people on how they treat me. If I'm looked down upon for this then that would be a real pity... If in any way I'm tarred with a similar brush and my loyalty to Armorama would be questioned then I'd be very disappointed. I'm not on-line enough to sit and click and read every post in every forum. I am fully aware of the time and effort put in here, and that is what makes coming here enjoyable. That said, modelling is the bottom line of these sites, and I basically have too many mates here to be barred or restricted...If I am judged on 'guilt by association' then I guess my character never came through in my posts...
Life's too short to slander
Cheers
Bradley

I think I can't agree with Paul (NATO308) more. When is this going to end? Isn't it about time the site got a notice board where anouncements can be made, instead of every few weeks someone opening up another flame war through a thread. If people want to open a new modelling site, let 'em. If others want to join it, let 'em. Are you going to build a Berlin Wall and say anyone crossing will be shot? I myself am a member of two other sites (not counting the Kitmaker network), and would like to think I am free to join any site or visit anyplace I see fit.

I am informed that no discussion of Armorama is tolerated on SMW, and in fact any reference to the word Armorama is auto-censored. So why not drop the topic? Why don't we move on, live and let live? If we are better than them, time will tell. If they are as good as us, great -- modellers everywhere can only gain. All this petty name-calling and bashing is quite childish.

Frankly, I think all you tankers are too tight-arsed and that's the problem. You don't see this with the flyboys on Aeroscale or the swabbies on Shipwrights, do you? Or anything like it with us figgies? Maybe we should get down to working hard at making the site the best there is and wiping out the competition with action not words.

WOW multiple site members... Banned for a comment.... messing between groups... freedom of speech... I was wondering when church and state would come up.

I must be doing too many models I can barely keep up with Armorama let alone joining multiple sites.

If you could get banned for just one comment then I'd be gone along time ago let alone the 3rd or 4th time I stuck my foot in my mouth. By the way thanks Jim.

my 2 cents - Thanks Jim for creating this wonderful spot that I can enjoy my models again, Thanks editors and staff for bringing to my attention all the new ideas and products that I love spending money on. And thanks members who contribute and respond to questions and provide great tips and tricks. And good by to all those who which not to particapte or find something more interesting to do than models.

Now where did I put my pills, and I'd better get back to drilling out those damn track links.

Bob

I couldn't have put it better myself! Thanks Bob! It couldn't be simpler could it really? I love this site. It's given me an awful lot, and in return I've worked hard for it......... and Jim. I'll always be grateful to Jim Starkweather for creating this site.
If you are unhappy with us....... go. Why does it irk some so much that they have to stay and try to undermine what we have here. Are they that petty? It's the two-faced creeps that expect to run us down on other sites, and then return here to be welcomed with open arms that we can quite frankly, do without........(and you know who you are).

Vinnie

Is that directed to me as well?

I have been a member here since 9-11-2005. This is the first site I had ever joined after lurking around for a few months. In fact I had never been a member of any site or forum anywhere before this one. The amount of knowledge I have gained in regards to history and modeling can not be equaled anywhere.
I joined the DSB a couple of months before its forum was booted from this site. I as well as several others who had joined had no idea about the past and any troubles associated with the group. It was "all in fun" at the time.
I received an invitation to visit scalemodelworld as did many others here. I signed up and became a member as there were many names that were already familiar to me. I saw a few posts that were obvious snipes at Big A from some that were unhappy or just plain pissed off at staff members here. I did not sign up over there because I had any grudge of any kind against anyone here.
I am now a member of several model sites but do most of my time here. I will go to other sites to read different reviews or content but always return here to the "family". When the post came out about the letter sent to the manufacture I ceased posting at scalemodelworld and have not posted since. I can not and will not do anything to undermine what Jim has accomplished with this site. I can not and will not blame him for actions he has taken to protect his property as I would do the same. He has built this site into what it is today and it is a fantastic place to be.
If others do not like it here or have grudges against staff members or Jim himself why not go to where you are happy.

Mark

Well said Mark. I've been privy to all that has happened over this affair, and can state catagorically that Jim has not done anything at all improper or vindictive. Any action he has taken has been fully endorsed by me, and only taken after he has carefully considered his actions. People in the past who have been banned for various reasons, all of them justified, have all attempted one way or the other, to throw their toys out of the pram and make their feelings known. Jealousy can be a strong emotion.
Let's have a roll call here, now of people who support Jim, support the site, and would like these malcontents to cease their whinging and just go away!

Vinnie