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Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:55 AM UTC
I read this comment made by a new member in the Pet Peeves thread. It was his first post and it made me reflect upon the events of this past summer.


Quoted Text

Very odd that. I've been reading this topic with interest. Teacher is the Editor, yet you guys all seem to want to pile on him. As editor, isn't it his job to make sure things are neat and tidy and done properly? Odd thing here is that everybody seems to want to slag staff off instead of thanking them for the site.



I always wonder about the way people complain about how the site is run. If you do not like the site, leave. No one forces you to remain. No one forces you to visit the site. No one forces you to post. No one forces you to register. No one forces you to read any post. No one forces you to participate in any manner.

There are plenty of other similar sites on the web. If you don't like it here, there is probably a site already established that suits your needs better than this one. If not, it's not that hard to start your own website that you can tailor to meet your own personal needs.

Now don’t get me wrong. The above statements are not meant to discourage those who want the site to be a better place. I know Jim has been open to suggestions and added abilities and content to the site. His willingness to adapt the site to the input of the general membership has brought the site to where it is today.

Some recent suggestions, like the chat room (both internal to the site and external of the site), have been tried several times and for various reasons, failed. Other recent concerns, like the search function, had to be downgraded because of the draw on resources. I’m not a web-guy, but that seems like a plausible explanation to me, just don’t ask me to explain what it means. Yes, I remember the days when I could type in a username, or add a few key words; select a forum, and presto! Pages and pages of posts appeared. Oh well, I can live with the current search function limitations.

If you do not personally like the individuals that are staff members, volunteer to take over their duties. If you do not feel like you have the capability to do the do the job as well or just do not have the amount of free time required, try to recruit someone you think may make a better staff member. If you can find someone who would do this, volunteer to be their assistant.

If you do not like the job that the staff member is doing, try opening a dialog with the person by using e-mail or the private message system. Address your concerns with that person one-on-one. You are more likely to succeed using this method than you would by posting a complaint in a thread. Again, volunteer to assist the staff member or try to recruit someone who can help out.

If you don’t like the job that Jim Starkweather is doing, I recommend opening a civil dialog with him. You have to remember that this is his site. It is his private property and we get to visit and participate at his discretion. He has the right to allow access, or not allow access to any person for whatever reason; hence my recommendation using the word “civil”.

The site is like his own personal night club. Like a real establishment, if he did not have a staff and members, it would just be an empty bar. We make the site community what it is. And like a real club, if a person or group of people starts misbehaving, expect the bouncers to step in.

Sometimes the fight is between different members and the staff must step in to break it up. Other times the fight is between the members and the staff. And just like in a real night club, a fight between the patrons and bouncers normally leads to the patrons being bounced. If you don’t agree with the outcome, then go back to the fifth and sixth paragraphs and try to work within the system to make them see things your way.

Again, much like at a real club, if the owner or bouncers hear you bad-mouthing their club after you've been booted, don't expect to be let back in.
markm
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California, United States
Joined: September 11, 2005
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
Armorama: 1,148 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:51 AM UTC
Robin,

I have to agree with a whole bunch if not all of what you have said. I also like the way you put it. Matter of fact and to the point.

Good job,

Mark
ShermiesRule
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Michigan, United States
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:57 AM UTC
Good words there Sabot. However, there also has to be some consideration why so many people have been “piling” on lately. While it may be a personal club and needs to make sure the house stays neat and clean, it must do so in a way that keeps the guest happy or they will simply get upset and find another club. You can keep bouncing all the disgruntled guests you want but sooner or later you have to wonder why so many people were disgruntled. If you don’t address the “why” you’ll always have a steady stream of unsatisfied guests. You’ll be wasting your time on bouncing guests and less time on doing productive things.

I have been around for about 3 years. I enjoy this site and have participated in many of the Campaigns. I think the deadlines really get my butt off the couch and back to the bench. For the most part I have been neutral but I’m not blind. I have seen a lot of changes, some for the better and some not.
Teacher
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England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:03 AM UTC
I think the vast majority of users are happy with the site, however, take any 20,000 people and you'll always find some that won't agree on anything.............even the colour of grass. Add to that mix the different nationalities represented by our membership, and the fact that a certain very few people are just plain jealous of what others are trying to achieve, and we're not doing so badly. We always have to try and please the majority.

Vinnie
keenan
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Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:25 AM UTC
Well said Rob.

Shaun

/Tended bar for a while
//Not nearly big enough to be a bouncer
TacFireGuru
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:29 AM UTC
Excellent point Vinnie.....The Big A is made up of all kinds of people, from all over the world, with ages that run the gamut and maturity levels. Of the 20k + members, there really is no way to appease all. I honestly believe that the Staff is doing what needs to be done and the way it needs to be done (yea, I may have an exception in there every now and then). I like the idea of professionalism, and:

To a point Robin put in:
Quoted Text

If you do not like the job that the staff member is doing, try opening a dialog with the person by using e-mail or the private message system. Address your concerns with that person one-on-one

This goes BOTH ways; member to Staff and vice versa. Flaming in the open forums is not the best thing to do.....it will always create some divisiveness which truly does no one any good.

Mike
markm
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California, United States
Joined: September 11, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:45 AM UTC
Hey, wait a minute-Mike has a point too-now I am confused :-) :-)

Seriously, All of the points brought up are valid ones. Everyone will see the same thing with a slightly different point of view. Its just natural.
jazza
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Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the vast majority of users are happy with the site, however, take any 20,000 people and you'll always find some that won't agree on anything.............



The only thing that has astonishes me about you Vinnie is that you keep asking all these hard German related questions in the Osprey challenge, all you build is German armor and yet you are English! :-)

Im just kidding...different strokes for different folks.

As an Editor though, you would never win a popularity contest since your role is to clean up other peoples mess. Similar to a nagging mother. Criticism and even personal attack comes with the territory but just remember this place is no better without guys like you.

Like you very well said, just please the majority, thats the best you can do.
Grumpyoldman
Staff MemberConsigliere
KITMAKER NETWORK
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Florida, United States
Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Armorama: 7,297 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 04:51 AM UTC
Lets see if a senile old man has this figured out...

If you come to my house and eat the food fine.

if you come to my house and eat the food, spit on the floor, not fine, and I'm just libel to get ticked and ask you to leave....

If you come to my house, eat my food, spit on the floor, and tell my neighbors that I'm a scumbag, I just might get even more ticked off, and never invite you again.

If you come to my house, eat my food, spit on the floor, tell me neighbors I'm a scumbag, kick the cat, and try to date my daughter...... I don't think I'm going to keep opening the door with open arms, and saying here's the food, cat and daughter.

Would you?

Just for the record, I happen to be a personal friend of Jim's, and I really do not like people trying to undermine him, this site,or talking badly about him. And I personally do not care if you like that fact or not, or like me or not, I'm too old to give a damn over those that don't like me, and prefer to concentrate on those that do.



slodder
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
Armorama: 7,138 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 06:28 AM UTC
Life is too short not to change with it. The only constant in life is change.


Rob - love what you said.

Vinnie - the majority of 20,000 is huge - can't agree more.

Jim - love your site - what can I do to help?

Tounge firmly planted in cheek - Dave - what's your daughters name? Doh.

kglack43
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Alabama, United States
Joined: September 18, 2003
KitMaker: 842 posts
Armorama: 607 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:36 AM UTC
It's threads like this that I probably need to read everyday before throwing my 2 cents into the fray...Thanks Rob for setting the record straight ....again.

his house, his rules.

got it.

now, Dave , about yer daughter...ANY PICS?

KEVIN
garyj36
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: January 22, 2006
KitMaker: 163 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 28, 2006 - 09:44 AM UTC
I get irritated at all modeling boards from time to time. But I figure I get an incalculable greater everything than I used to from magazines "for free". So, I pay nothing, count the entire planet as modeling buddies, get a daily model show, and reviews of just about everything. Did I mention........for free?
HARV
#012
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Wyoming, United States
Joined: November 07, 2003
KitMaker: 3,098 posts
Armorama: 1,236 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 01:12 AM UTC
For what it is worth....I love this site! I have made some good friends due to the forums here. I really like how you can view the work of others. I really appreciate how everyone is willing to help each other out. I like the way the site is set up and I have yet to see a change that I don't like. If I could do anything to help out I would. For all of the help that I receive and the enjoyment that I find here I feel a little guilty that it is all for free. So that is why I would like to Join the A-Guard as soon as it is available. I want to thank Jim and the rest of the staff for a great site.

Thank You, HARV

CReading
#001
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California, United States
Joined: February 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,726 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 02:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I figure I get an incalculable greater everything than I used to from magazines "for free". So, I pay nothing, count the entire planet as modeling buddies, get a daily model show, and reviews of just about everything. Did I mention........for free?



Here Here! Better than a truck load of magazines. Have met and befriended folks from ALL walks of life. Seen more and better models than I possibly could attending the local (and distant) shows.

Cheers,
Charles
almonkey
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: March 23, 2003
KitMaker: 2,124 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 03:13 AM UTC
to carry on the night club analogy-

entrance is free
my mates are always hanging around at the bar (get yer hand in yer pockets)
i can choose whatever music i like (any forum i like)
i can turn up at 7.00 pm and not leave until 7.00am the next day
when i do leave i don't have the nightmare of finding a taxi
this nightclub is for me!
however there is one downside, in that this must make staff jim become peter stringfellow!
Henk
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: August 07, 2004
KitMaker: 6,391 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 03:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

however there is one downside, in that this must make staff jim become peter stringfellow!



ouch....
:-)

Grumpyoldman
Staff MemberConsigliere
KITMAKER NETWORK
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Florida, United States
Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Armorama: 7,297 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 04:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

however there is one downside, in that this must make staff jim become peter stringfellow!



ouch....
:-)




Now, that is funny...... :-) :-)
Hollowpoint
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Kansas, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
Armorama: 1,797 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 07:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If you do not like the site, leave. No one forces you to remain.



That's the bottom line.

For the record, I am a former staff member. I'm still not quite sure why I was let go, but it kind of hurt my feelings and I backed off this site for a while. But the remaining personalitiies and new friends made me keep coming back. Now I mostly lurk, but when I have an answer I try to give good info.

I joined way back in the early days, January 24, 2002, according to my profile. Most of the guys who were around back then have either moved on or become staff or were banished with the DSB (a stupid idea I never liked from the beginning). The initial group was pretty tight, but now that we are at 20K+, well, there is just a lot of junk on the site. I'll hang for now, trying to help the new and old folks with legitimate questions I can help answer, but I can't help wonder if the popularity of the site will ultimately be its downfall. Maybe not ... things evolve, including this site. (Sorry for the down stroke -- I've been watching one of those "end of days" TV shows tonight. )

Note I haven't posted on the "Pet Peeves" thread. I don't want to be accused of or invite a personal flame attack. As time goes on, people will come and go ... there will be good times and not-so-good times. I just hope most will be good times. I'll continue to lurk or contribute, depending upon what is appropriate.
Moezilla
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 01, 2004
KitMaker: 1,161 posts
Armorama: 542 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 11:36 PM UTC
I agree with you Robin, great points all. I really love this site, it's a great resource with a ton of information that has gotten me into this great hobby of ours. There are some of the greatest model builders on the web here, great information, reviews and best of all friends.

It's like a big family here and just like any family there will be spats/quarrels and people will "move out" etc. lol Sometimes those family members that move out just NEED to be gone for what ever reason and it is best for the good of the family that they do so. There are also times when the family can be unfair to one of its members, it happens because we're all human and are subject to the limitations of being human. We just need to keep in mind that for the family to be happy and modeling away, both sides need to be fair with one another.
blaster76
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Texas, United States
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 01:30 AM UTC
I am glad someone like Rob posted this. There have been some things going about lately that have stuck in my craw. I don't totally accept the statement that this is Jim's site and he can do what he wants. While technically this statement is true, it is also my site, and Skippers, Moezillas, Sabots, Teachers, and the other umpteen hunderd that actively participate on this site. We all make up Armorama. Like Rob I have been here a long time and have watched it grow into a juggernaut. We are the ones that answer the thousands of questions that occur , we write the wonderful articles that also attract people to the site.

A lot of people , good exerienced people , have been leaving the site. Some forced, but a lot willigly. That sense of fair play, constitutional rights (I know they don't legally apply ) are being violated like freedom of speech and due process are the root causes. This isn't a night club and the bouncer rule should not apply. I am thinking maybe a little due process might work better.

Perhaps setting up a panel of judges from some of the respected members within the group to hear both sides of the story before expulsion would be better . I nominate Guntrucks, Skipper and Sabot, and heck, with my legal background I'll even volunteer to sit on the panel (assuming I am respected of course)
keenan
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Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 02:46 AM UTC
Members come and go all the time for whatever reason. I lost a cyber friend when the former moderator of the History Club quit in a fit of pique. Life goes on. People come and go. A lot of the members here who were regulars four years ago when I joined have moved on. (Anyone heard from Yodaman lately?) Some of us are still here.
I will be the first person to admit that there seems to be a general snotty attitude with some people in the forums lately. I read some of these posts and remember my RecModelsScale days where everyone honed their sarcasm skills. I generally just shake my head and realize that some people need other things to worry about.

That said, I still think Armorama has the most nurturing forums of any model building site, wooden ship, plane, tank, race car or other on the interwebs.

If I have offended anyone, it is just the gin talking...

Shaun
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 06:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't totally accept the statement that this is Jim's site and he can do what he wants. While technically this statement is true, it is also my site, and Skippers, Moezillas, Sabots, Teachers, and the other umpteen hunderd that actively participate on this site. We all make up Armorama.



Well, if you read one of my initial statements below, I agree with you that "we" are Armorama. But, the virtual land, building and fixtures belong to Jim. It is his property, his webmaster abilities and his idea that gave this site birth.

Like a real establishment, if he did not have a staff and members, it would just be an empty bar. We make the site community what it is.



Quoted Text

A lot of people , good exerienced people , have been leaving the site. Some forced, but a lot willigly. That sense of fair play, constitutional rights (I know they don't legally apply ) are being violated like freedom of speech and due process are the root causes. This isn't a night club and the bouncer rule should not apply. I am thinking maybe a little due process might work better.



I do not believe freedom of speech privileges exist on private websites. Freedom of speech is an American constitutional right just like due process. If you want to complain about Armorama at your town square and stand on a soap box, that is your constitutional right. If you want to take out an ad in the local newspaper denouncing your treatment on Armorama, that is your right. But don't expect the owner of Armorama to let you stand on his private website and do the same. If you do, be prepared to face the consequences (getting posts deleted or banned).

In regards to freedom of speech in the online world, you have the right to create your own site and say whatever you wish. But you also have the right to say who can "speak" on it and who cannot. That is your freedom because it is your slice of cyberspace.

Just like you do not have the right to stand in the middle of Jim's living room and say what you want, you do not have the right to get space on Armorama's website and say what you want.
Moezilla
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 01, 2004
KitMaker: 1,161 posts
Armorama: 542 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 08:54 AM UTC
I agree with you there, it is a webmasters privilege to ban people who are disruptive to a site and something a good webmaster will do and will generally receive the support of all members if not a majority of them. There's always a few that may not support for whatever reasons but the majority will support. The only problem is when a user is banned due to an assumption or supposition, I think this is where Steve is saying there should be (for lack of a better term) 'due process'. I think it's best to ask for both sides before either goes jumping to conclusions or assuming anything. As the old saying goes, assumption is the mother of all 'F' ups'. lol

I support the site and Jim's running of it, as do we all who are posting here. We want to see Armorama continue to grow, kick a$$ and take names.
erichvon
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: January 17, 2006
KitMaker: 1,694 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 09:12 AM UTC
Why is it individual a**seholes feel it is their god given right to come on and take a pop? It's a free site which passes more info per day than any modelling magazine does in a year! Not that I feel strongly about it... :-) . Top and bottom of it is if they don't like the site then why look at it? Do they have an ugly wife that they avoid going to bed with and send random snotty mails to various sites to avoid going to the bedroom. Does make you think doesn't it?
blaster76
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Texas, United States
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 10:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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Quote:
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I don't totally accept the statement that this is Jim's site and he can do what he wants. While technically this statement is true, it is also my site, and Skippers, Moezillas, Sabots, Teachers, and the other umpteen hunderd that actively participate on this site. We all make up Armorama.

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Well, if you read one of my initial statements below, I agree with you that "we" are Armorama. But, the virtual land, building and fixtures belong to Jim. It is his property, his webmaster abilities and his idea that gave this site birth.

Like a real establishment, if he did not have a staff and members, it would just be an empty bar. We make the site community what it is.


Quote:
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A lot of people , good exerienced people , have been leaving the site. Some forced, but a lot willigly. That sense of fair play, constitutional rights (I know they don't legally apply ) are being violated like freedom of speech and due process are the root causes. This isn't a night club and the bouncer rule should not apply. I am thinking maybe a little due process might work better.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do not believe freedom of speech privileges exist on private websites. Freedom of speech is an American constitutional right just like due process. If you want to complain about Armorama at your town square and stand on a soap box, that is your constitutional right. If you want to take out an ad in the local newspaper denouncing your treatment on Armorama, that is your right. But don't expect the owner of Armorama to let you stand on his private website and do the same. If you do, be prepared to face the consequences (getting posts deleted or banned).



Your point is struck perfectly on the head of the nail Robin, but what if an individual stands on the soapbox somewhere else, and does not specifically say Jim or Armorama/ Situations like this are why I am proposing for lack of a better term a "council of Judges" 3 or 4 highly respected individuals can hear both sides. Get away from anger and hot heads. The term "cooler heads prevail" is what I am proposing. An individual that started all this by sending an extremely in-appropriate letter probably shound have been banned long before in my humble opinion. If there had been a council set up maybe it would have acted on him or maybe straightened him out. I don't know. I don't like seeing this great site getting ripped up, and despite efforts, I feel that a lot of folks are a little displeased. I believe in common courtesy. Being southern if someone were to come into my house and call me a bad name, I would at least ask him why he said that before I asked him to leave my house.
 _GOTOTOP