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staff_Jim
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Joined: December 15, 2001
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 12:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

For lack of better words this war is like kids in a sand pit,thats your side there,this is ours.



Yes except for the fact that we are currently in the sandpit and the others are in the bucket of sand. I mean seriously. If any one of you thinks this is simply some petty issue on my part because a "new" site has sprung up and I am mad that some of our members have decided to join it. Sorry you are SO far far from the truth. I don't care about a hundred DSB members and friends who have created a secondary place to visit, etc. Good for you. Have fun over there. Be as silly as you can to your heart's content. This is NOT about you being on another site. As I have tried to beat into everyones head (and I am sorry for the people who got this back in June and are hearing it for the Nth time), it's the AGENDA issue that is the core reason members are getting banned or leaving. Most of those are people who already decided to call it quits for whatever reasons... not fun anymore, too serious, too many advertisements, X-Vendor sucks, I hate X-Staff member, I hate Staff_Jim, I hate my underwear. Whatever. I can't help those people. But I will be damned if I am going to let them careen about in their Virtual SUV trying to hit-and-run as many people as they can before they are caught and made a martyr of.

Jim
Moezilla
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Joined: June 01, 2004
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 01:32 AM UTC
You hate your underwear Jim? lol Sounds like a personal problem.



This has actually been a very good thing I think, it's gotten some things out in the open and allowed people to air things in a mature and what I believe to be, constructive manner. I know for the staff and others this has gotten to be overkill, personally I'm coming into this situation very late as the first I had really gotten any real information on it was when Jim posted about the advertiser deal. That was very petty IMO, I stated it then and I feel the same now. I then got more curious about it when a fellow local model club member was banned from here and I was having a genuine "wtf" moment.

Honestly, I was wondering if people who went to another site were going to run into the same problems. Since I visit there (as well as other sites, mainly lurking occassionally posting) I thought that my 'motives' would come under question. I'll be very forthright here, my motives are selfish. I enjoy learning about this great hobby, I feel I get the most information and assistance from this site and its wealth of information and knowledgeable people. This site has also allowed me to make a slew of new friends both locally and across the world, it's spawned our local model club (we're all from the Big A) and it's lit the fire of enjoying this wonderful hobby. There are other sites I visit as well, to read their posts to get information and learn new tips, tricks etc and there's no ulterior motives. I'm selfish in wanting to get as much information as possible and assistance, when I can I will lend a helping hand as well but I still feel I'm a bit wet behind the ears to offer too much assistance. lol

Thanks for the thread, it's been a good one I think.
Removed by original poster on 09/02/06 - 04:15:51 (GMT).
drabslab
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European Union
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think I am being the targeted individual here.




PLEASE PEOPLE STOP STOP STOP !!!!!!!!!!!

All true supporters of this site STOP!!!!!

The quote above summarises it all. if this continues then you are giving the enemies exactly what they want.

Too many will feel blamed, or attacked, or wrongly accused. This could to easily end in a painfull loss of members who will wihdraw from this site with hard feelings. Armorama doesn't need this. Armorama is a lot better than this.

False accusations about this site have been sent around. That was a terrible provocation. Now lets deal with it in a professional manner and not by wildly shooting around and killing a number of friends in the process.

There are so many other things to talk about.

Let only one thing be very clear, if Jim or the staff needs support, they knows where to get it!!!!!


CReading
#001
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Joined: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 03:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Let only one thing be very clear, if Jim or the staff needs support, they knows where to get it!!!!!




Amen.
generalzod
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 04:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

isnt calling their site silly not too nice either?



Dave,
You missed my point. They *want* to have a site that is less serious and one that they can be silly. Please give me a little credit that I have not been asleep for 4+ years on that score.

As for pigmodelworld (as I am affectionately calling it) I guess I should be flattered that Armorama has at last produced a real fork. And by that I mean that most other large sites have had a group of members break off an start a new site. That time has come for us. I wish it well! Drat... who am I kidding I hope it goes down in flames. :-)

Cheers,
Jim



Down in flames? For the record,not all of the members are DSB members
nato308
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Joined: October 23, 2003
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 05:13 AM UTC
Jim Starkweather - I have always maintained that it is your site, your property and it is your right to do with it as you see fit. I have never badmouthed you, or the site. Have I butted heads with members of the staff? Yes, I have, which is no secret. If I am guilty of anything, it is holding you and your staff to a higher level of character. Why is there any need for continued sarcasm, name calling, and sniping? Stop the Wyatt Earp crap: name your suspects, ban them, and be done with it.

Vinnie, Rae - You may not like me, I can live with that. Have the courage to say it, and stand behind it publicly. Produce evidence if I stand accused of inappropriate behavior.

Postings should provoke thought and discussion and should not belittle members or ridicule them. Armorama has a vast number of members with a wide range of skills and knowledge, which should be respected by everyone. This community is why people like me want to see this site survive. My prior comments have never been personal attacks on the staff. Respect is fundamental to any site. I respect you wanting to defend what you all have worked so hard to produce. This is a good site. I simply hope your actions don’t destroy what you are most trying to protect.

Paul
Teacher
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 05:25 AM UTC
I've edited this post. It was too long when all I wanted to ask of Nato308 is.......why are you convinced this is about you? I don't even know you, didn't know you were involved, and can't recall anything you've done here? Who are you?

Vinnie
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 06:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

And I think I have been more than clear on what the site's policy is going to be on this matter from this point out.



Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Last time I looked he still owned the site,
and is allowed to make the policies he wants the site to follow.

I think many are missing his keys words there.... "From this point out".

I maybe senile and half brain dead, but I can figure out.... "From this point out".

I believe that Jim and the Staff know where my butt is anchored.
nato308
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Iowa, United States
Joined: October 23, 2003
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 08:21 AM UTC
Vinne,

I am confused by your comments. You claimed to have edited my post yet I see no changes. What is your intent? Too long? Or does the content bother you?

Once again, your post is an example of a staff person belittling a member. Who am I? That's funny... I have been an active member since 2003. Wouldn't it have been better to say if I were or were not a trouble maker? If the facts of the matter are so clear to the staff of Armorama, why are you having such a difficult time stating them? Play your cards and let's get this over. Waiting for this to clear up has been far worse than waiting for the weather to clear prior to the D-day invasion.

You demand loyalty and respect? That has to be earned, not blindly given.

Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 08:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Vinne,

I am confused by your comments. You claimed to have edited my post yet I see no changes. What is your intent? Too long? Or does the content bother you?


I believe he is saying he edited his own response, not yours. I guess he just doesn't know you means that he hasn't had any interaction with you. Same with me. I recognize your call sign, we may have even exchanged messages, but I don't think I "know" you either (no offense intended).

You are correct that the staff tends to remember trouble makers more so than the vast majority of members who do not cause problems. Again, no offense, but that's just the way it normally goes.
CReading
#001
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 09:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Vinne,

I am confused by your comments. You claimed to have edited my post yet I see no changes. What is your intent? Too long? Or does the content bother you?



I believe that Mr. Branagan was stating that he had edited his own posting. The one after yours as he felt the first version was too lengthy and not to the point.


Quoted Text


You demand loyalty and respect? That has to be earned, not blindly given.




I think Jim and the staff here has done plenty to earn respect and loyalty.
Look around the site. They earn my respect on a daily basis.

And I hope this last point won't be considered 'a shot' because it isn't intended as such.
I am member number 82 yet I wouldn't expect anyone on this site to know who I am out of the 20K members here. Why would you think you would be any more recognizable than anyone else in the membership?

Peace and love,
Charles
Henk
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Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:02 AM UTC
Perhaps it's time to sit back and take stock, as this will go on and on..

I just had a thought, which doesn't occur very often, but isn't this just what makes Armorama what it is? We are not a bunch of inward looking theorists, who demand absolute clarity and seven different references to justify a reply to a question; we are not a bunch of airheads who stick together a few bits of plastic (badly.. ) and congratulate each other profusly for it; we are the best bit in between........

Think about it, we attract both superb modelers and newbees in equal measure. Because the superb modelers are more than willing to help the newbees, who in turn are appreciating the work of those modelers.
As I have been saying to those drivers in the company I (soon used to) work for, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW GOOD YOU'VE GOT IT...

Get over it, we are never going to like each other, but the good thing about the internet is that you don't actualy have to meet each other, just exchange thoughts... so build a bl***dy model and post some pics... than give some constructive comments.

It's easy to keep kicking the staff, and it's easy for the staff to kick. But the staff are the ones spending countless hours providing you with a pair of boots to kick with. just think of it...

You have to excuse me, but I have to go back to try and find a new job...

Grow up

Henk
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 12:01 PM UTC
Paul,
Contrary to our childhood myths from watching too many repeats of Star Trek, Wyatt Earp was a "good guy" who fought against lawlessness and the tyranny of cowboys that thought they could do anything, to anyone at anytime. Is that the "crap" (as you so eloquently put it) that you want me to stop?

Not to jump on the bandwagon but I don't really know you either. Sure I have seen your posts (and your criticisms) but I have no knowledge to base an opinion on with your posts regarding this matter. Apparently you know me far better to judge me so. I have made my decisions on how best to proceed with this situation. No regrets on my end of things. I have a bit more information at my disposal than what has been posted here and since those informing me of certain facts have not given me their blessing to divulge that information it would not be right to start naming names. Besides I think this person may be having a change of heart on some level. Who knows perhaps he too was lied to about certain things he has been telling people as fact. I guess time will tell. I only know that it's not my intent to go banning people willy nilly unless they give me a good reason to.

Regards,
Jim

jimbrae
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 01:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Vinnie, Rae - You may not like me, I can live with that. Have the courage to say it, and stand behind it publicly. Produce evidence if I stand accused of inappropriate behavior.



Paul (Nato308), about 6 posts before this, I stated (for the record) that you were NOT in the category I or anyone else was referring to.If you had read my response then, I doubt if you would have responded in this manner...

That said, you and I have had differences in the past, so it would have been easy to point the finger and accuse you of being one of the troublemakers. That would have been both unfair and petty....Jim
Pilgrim
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 05:49 PM UTC
Well, seeing as the original post in this thread quoted a message in the "Pet Peeves" thread where I'd complained about the moderation of the AFV forum, I guess I'd better state my position, particularly seeing as so many of the participants in this thread are people for whom I have a lot of respect, like dave O'Meara.

It's clear what effort Jim, Jim, Vinnie, Henk, et al put into the site. I'm happy to acknowledge that here again, just as I've acknowledged it to them in the forums before and in PMs.

I think that for a place like Armorama to flourish however, it has to respond to the feedback of its members. We don't believe that our modelling skills improve (or any other skills in life improve, for that matter) without constructive feedback. How much do we learn from the "Wow! what a finish!" posts when we demonstrate our work? If we don't like the site we can move on, sure - but then so many people have made a huge commitment to the site - both in time, effort and money (a point where Dave's "Jim's house analogy falls down - if I'm helping to pay the rent then maybe I can express my opinion on the colour of the curtains? ), it seems reasonable for them to express ares of the sit's functioning that they don't like so things can change. That was all I tried to do - and the points I raised still haven't been answered; which is fair enough - maybe it was the wrong thread.

I'm sorry if my post in the "Pet Peeves" thread made people think I was "piling on" Vinnie. That wasn't the intention - I was trying to have an adult discussion in an adult way. I'd be even more sorry if Vinne felt that himself: given what I've written to him in the past (in forums and PMs) he would be able to put this into the context it was intended. If it did cause offence I'm happy to take this opportunity to publicly apologise now.

Furthermore, I've always tried to receive criticism of my builds in a positive way, and to be supportive to other modellers here, so I'm concerned to think that I may be getting lumped in with people who were banned from the site for trying to lose it advertising.

I'd love to help out as an editor, but unfortunately I don't have the free time (a 2yo son and demanding job see to that) to allow me to do this properly. So I just keep trying to be as positive a user of the site as I can be: I don't believe that means that the site or its staff are above any criticism at all though, even though nearly everything about the site is wonderful.


Sean
Pilgrim
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text




You have to excuse me, but I have to go back to try and find a new job...



Henk



Good luck with that Henk.


Sean
cheyenne
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 08:48 PM UTC
Many, many years ago, when Track Link was just about the only game in town, I joined.
Then I joined Missing- Lynx, never much of a contributer to either, always loved looking at models people built and how they built them.

I joined Armorama the first time in I believe 2002 or 3 as Hozer, no posts or photos as I had no camera at the time.
Then as I was nearing retirement I rejoined [ new computer ] as Cheyenne, as a contributer [ done got me a camera ], and made many cyber friends.

I'm not " fully " aware of the " battle " nor do I want or need any more info, but have heard and read much.
The letter written to the advertiser to me was wrong, that is my opinion.
I was never a pig thing and never really understood it, I thought it was some members with a clique thing, also to me it's thier thing, no harm.
I was never a member of any chat groups [ good Lord I type like a snail as it is ].
When it comes to allegiance, I guess you could say it is here at Armorama, this is where I restarted in my hobby.
It dosen't mean I agree with everything here on Armorama, [ nitpick stuff ] Yet as I have no answers or time to help moderate or make constructive suggestions, I keep my mouth shut on the in - house , housekeeping.
I'm sure Armorama can run without my 2 cents.
I made friends with alot of people, some who now also belong to another site, I joined it.
I don't know everyone there as I don't know everyone here.
I don't hate anyone on either site.
I don't always agree with everyone on either site also.
I appreciate the work Jim B., Vinnie and Jim S. do.
I don't want to have to make a choice either way, because then I'll have nothing.
I like talking to the members over there, some who are members here.
I just want to retire and model and interact with other modelers and thier work.

Glenn Patrick Sudol
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Friday, September 01, 2006 - 10:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Let's have a roll call here, now of people who support Jim, support the site, and would like these malcontents to cease their whinging and just go away!



I'm in. Period.

Somewhere else is not what I expected it was going to be. I had a wake up call a couple of days ago. Opinions differed (don't they tho!!). I'm sure I'll "check in" every once in a while to see what some of my "online buddies" are building there. And ladies and gentlemen "building" is what it's about.

Were it not for ArmoramA and a whole lot of people I've met here, I wouldn't be building (or at least trying to build).

Now, to homework for my BSISS degree, then to the Arty Up! campaign!

A toast to all those that make this work; members, staff, and JS.

Mike
staff_Jim
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Posted: Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 12:22 AM UTC
All,
While I am happy to see people showing their support for the community, site, me, etc., I should have said yesterday that it's not my goal in all this to have people "choose sides". The vast majority of the people who have joined up over on SMW are A-okay in my book and simply interesting in continuing to hang-out with a few of their friends who either intentionally don't frequent here anymore or were banned. When people throw around words like "guilt by association" I want everyone to understand where I draw a line. I *thought* I had been pretty clear on this in this topic by saying that if you come out and cheer for people like Roderick that is crossing the line.

Chad - When I said the bit about going down in flames I was kidding. I think.

Thanks for the many emails of support and also of advice in this matter. I think that although it's always a bit harmful to air these issues publically, that if we can move beyond the childish antics and get back to what makes the community what it is - online friends helping share their love of the hobby, then this topic will serve some purpose.

Thanks,
Jim
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