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DML Germans Vs Allies
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 05:42 PM UTC
Hi Julian,

Glad you enjoying the post. You have my deepest and sincere sympathy regarding you plight which must be so much worse than mine. Made even more so by the recent releases of the Tamiya Char Bis, and the 3 Hotchkis kits from Trumpeter and Bronco. I've read the Bronco Hotchkiss is an excellent kit, but alas my firend where are your infantry and support figures in plastic figures.

It's a pity because the early war period offers so many possibilities for French dios. Like us I suppect you survive, at great expense, from the excellent range of resin figures.

Who knows if the Char Bis does as well as it appears to be doing Tamiya might offfer a token set of French Infantry one day.

I really like the early war period but there aren't that may plastic injection kits that fit the bill.

On a much brighter note many, many congratulations on you 3- 1 win over Italy. After the last time you must be absoloutely delighted

See, everything comes to those who wait LOL, LOL but revenge can sometimes be very sweet indeed

Be well and I enjoyed your posts as always.

A cyber toast to your victory.

Cheers

Al
DesertRat
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 06:31 PM UTC
Hi,

A couple of thoughts.

Unfortunately, I do not think, as some have said, that this thread will start a surge of converting or scratchbuilding existing figures, be it in pose and/or uniform, to provide more Allied subjects. In fact, this thread has 94 replies at this moment - I do not believe there are many threads on converting or scratchbuilding which are so extensively contributed to.

Trying your hand at converting would be, I think, much more useful than complaining. I do not say there's no reason for complaining - just that the complaining is unlikely to get results, so it is better to do something more productive. If you are unwilling/unable to convert figures, then you will have to wait for the figures to be released by someone... perhaps, maybe some day... or not; or switch to doing Germans, which are much better catered for... ;-)

Besides that, converting is fun and you would have more unique and satisfying models.

Please note than in "supporting" areas the same is true. How many Osprey books are dedicated to German subjects in their various series, as opposed to Allied? German outnumber all the others combined. And this is just partly due to the Germans having more variety of uniforms, camouflages or insignia - it is not really balanced. Surely this is because of something, too... commercial reasons surely, isn't it?

Best regards,

Dan
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 06:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I was just wondering if and when those British figures come out will you guys think it was because of this?

:-) :-) :-)

For the sake of everyone though I think Jim should contact Dragon and see if we can get any evidence that some allied releases are on the way at least. Perhaps then we can find something else to talk about.

Or Ron perhaps you can use your pull. Just tell them you are going to stop painting Germans on principle so they will need to produce Allied subjects from this point out. That will give Freddie a laugh.

Cheers,
Jim



Hi Jim,

Not for a moment, we are just letting them know we are still around and waiting for the next development.

If you don't want to play that's OK too :-) :-)

Cheers

Al


Hi Cromwell,

Couldn't agree more. I'd love to see some of the early Vickers tanks and a range of armoured cars but who would populate these vehicles?

Your mention of Accurant Armour brings the question of economics back to mind.

Here's a company this is probably the worlds leading manufacturer of accurate British vehicles. Their production costs are supposed to be much higher and yet they bring us 4 excellent versions of the Lloyd Carrier, a set of outstanding 1/48 trucks and numerous update sets to correct the mistakes made by the plastic injection manufacturers.

Their core business, British Military Vehicles.

Then we have Resicast core businesss British figures and kits.

Cromwell Models core business same detail.

Ultracast Commonwalth figures and decal sets.

Then there's Model Victoria, Italian Infantry and kits.

There is a great manufacturer who does French Figures whos name escapes me at the moment.

Even bigger we have VLS and it's asociated bits, making a whole range of stuff including additional US figures, Legends same detail.

If I accept the premis that there is no market for allied sets then how come these companies some of whom have been around for some time actually exist? I assume they are run be very smart and professional people who clearly see there is money to be made in allied figures and kits. This is even more interesting when you consider that the cost of one figure is 3 or 4 times higher than a box of 4 or 6 plastic injection ones as are the production costs.

So if these companies can make profit from their enterprises some of which have core Allied subjects, then how come it is impossible for the really big players in the plastic injection field to produce 6 or 12 new allied figures a year?

It's the very successful existance of these companies that calls into question the whole 'there's not profit in it' argument.

I'd be really interested to see what new sets MB bring out.

As we say back home 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'

Cheers

Al
Teacher
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 07:20 PM UTC
No it does not call it into question at all! Totally different production methods, costs, and just about everything else that matters. You've been told by the manufacturers in this very topic that they do not sell well enough.

They do not sell enough.

For God's sake it's plain enough! Yes, a company can make a profit selling Allied, but it's a bigger profit making Axis.

Vinnie
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 07:23 PM UTC
Alan, not for the first time, are you being selective in choosing what you mistakenly believe is fact...

Accurate Armour is the WORST possible example you could have chosen. Their kits are (by the nature of the material and the cost) NOT designed for mass-market sales. Anyone involved in this sector will tell you that:

a) Resin is expensive

b) The moulds have a much shorter shelf-life.

Comparing a 'Mass-Market' manufacturer like Tamiya, Revell, DML etc. is meaningless. They aim at different sectors of the market -again something you either fail to understand or are deliberately avoiding..

I've spent a LOT of time speaking to people like Mig Jimenez and Derek Hanson about the economics of the sector they are involved in. What's the first thing they say? That their sector is different, it's much more expiremental than that of the mainstream... So please, some of us have been round the block a few times and understand the DIFFERENT sectors of the market. DML isn't competing against AA, nor and this is the crucial point does the core market of DML even vaguely resemble that of AA, Ultracast, Resicast or any other of your spurious examples....
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No it does not call it into question at all! Totally different production methods, costs, and just about everything else that matters. You've been told by the manufacturers in this very topic that they do not sell well enough.

They do not sell enough.

For God's sake it's plain enough! Yes, a company can make a profit selling Allied, but it's a bigger profit making Axis.

Vinnie



Hi Vinnie,

Yes I'm aware that the production methods are different. I am also aware that according to all who are in the know that manufacturers make more money by selling Axis kits. That's common knowledge.

However, I'm delight to see that they also make a profit from their Allied Sets which will hopefully mean we will continue to see the odd few new additions. If their allied sets had a bit more thought put into them perhaps they would sell more, the current designs are hardly ground breaking nor have they got that flexability appear I mentioned.

No need to get all hot and bothered, :-) :-) :-) and please don't patronise me I am not stupid. All those who say Allied set don't sell as much are correct, but they never look at the offering made and say well with a bit more thought and design they might well have sold better now do they??

Cheers

Al
spooky6
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Despite this, certain people have chosen to ignore these (informed) opinions and keep assuming that somehow the 'Majors' will relent and produce set after set of obscure figures and vehicles.



Well, they're not talking about obscure figs & vehicles, Jim (at least, I don't think the 8th Army or the Gurkhas are obscure!). SS-Hohenstaufen? Hmmm

Having said that, don't take it so personally, Jim. I roll my eyes too every time I see one of these jabs, but you don't see journalists personally responding to every letter to the editor that is fired up by readers, do you? Ignore the 'not another bloody Kraut' comments and respond to the constructive or quizzical.

In the same way, I think Karl & Alan (and whoever) has every right to grumble about what they are not getting without having Jim & Vin come in and say 'you're talking bollocks'. Let 'em have their say too.

Now as for me (no, Jim, I'm not going to ask for more 1/16 figs, this time it's a 1/35 vehicle), I want a Land Rover Wolf special forces vehicle in injection plastic with mounted Minimis, FN MAGS, and bearded long-haired SAS troopers drinking Stella. Where is it, Dragon?
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:59 PM UTC
Hi Jim,

It wouldn't matter what I said Jim you would say I was being selective.

As to having different markets, production methods and so on, well of course that is the case.

Funny how you used a quote from 1 resin manufacturer to back up your argument but when I do the same I'm some how misguided.

Every single one of you missed the point. If Allied sets were well designed and thought out then it's likely they would sell more and if they did sell more then they might make others.

However, if all you going to offer are fairly boring an uninteresting figures is it any wonder that they don't sell as well?

Cheers

Al

jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 11:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In the same way, I think Karl & Alan (and whoever) has every right to grumble about what they are not getting without having Jim & Vin come in and say 'you're talking bollocks'. Let 'em have their say too.



If there was any attempt to stifle their opinions, I rather think that two things would have happened:

a) Their posts would have been deleted

b) The thread would have been locked

As the thread is still open and their opinions are still present...

Unfortunately, neither of the two individuals have the benefit of hindsight, or, correctly put, the contact that JimS, Vinnie and I have with manufacturers. Site policy is very clear on this, we have a philosophy of dealing with manufacturers as professionals in the sector - I can guarantee that if we were to start ranting and raving to them, we wouldn't have the sponsorship or advertising we have on Armorama - the lifeblood of the Kitmaker Network. It takes a lot of work to attract an advertiser, we have to offer a serious and sober image to them. If we were to go in with 'Where are the bloody Allied figures', a lot of the site would come to a sudden halt...

Alan, at the danger of you feeling 'patronized' a subtle suggestion, listen to what people are saying - it really is worth the effort.....

Tordenskiold
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Posted: Friday, September 08, 2006 - 12:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Or Ron perhaps you can use your pull.



Well, he sort of already did.

He made a new post , asking people to post their wishes for allied figures.

Strangely enough that topic is still completly empty - while answers are still pilling up in this one.

Doesn't that tell you all something ??
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, September 08, 2006 - 12:20 AM UTC
Great. But...errr... I posted that yesterday. Ron's post is only 90 minutes old at this point.

:-)

Jim
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Removed by original poster on 09/09/06 - 10:01:19 (GMT).
AlanL
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Posted: Friday, September 08, 2006 - 07:57 AM UTC
Hi Jim,

Patronising and the rest mate. Saw you post last night, glad you had the sense to delete it.

Always with the negative wave, always with the negative waves.

:-) :-) :-)

You and me have had this conversation before. I like to try and think of positive ways to improve the situation and I'm not one just to sit back and accept the status quo if I think there's the slightest chance of improving things.

I don't expect the market to suddenly be flooded with Allied kits but if any of the ideas of suggestions get picked up and turn up 2 years from now then we all benefit.

I know where you coming from Jim I read what you posted. I also understand the position you in and the logic of what's being said, but if enough people get interested then this type of thread can produce some good ideas and be a good sounding board for the way people are thinking. It can also be a lot of fun and gives one a chance to judge other peoples opinions, needs and wants.

I don't care where the ideas come from nor who has them. If I made a product and it didn't sell as well as I had hoped, I'd not only look at the market I'd look at the product and think how could I improve that, make it better, more appealing.

Thumbs up to Staff Jim for his suggestion to Ron and thanks to Ron for the opportunity for folks to put forward their ideas in his new post.

As I said before, I've been a fan of Dragon figures in particular for years, I'd just like a few more of you know what.

Time will tell, but I continue to live in hope.

Oh, see we'd both like the Vickers MG and 3" Mtr Team

Anyway enough said, there's some good ideas appearing in the new post and it will be interesting to watch what comes up.

Cheers

Al
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ShermiesRule
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Posted: Friday, September 08, 2006 - 08:41 PM UTC
Just a US tank rider set and a Brit tank rider set that matches their US Support Weapons Crew and British Infantry releases. That's really all I want. Just two kits. Preferably one of their 6 figure relases but I'll settle for four. Heck they can even pull a Tamiya and throw them into the appropriate allied tanks kit, change the name of the kit and charge more. Does a German Ski patrol set really have that much potential that it can outsell allied tank riders? If you're going to take a chance on German Ski Patrol why not take a chance on allied tank riders?

PS. I love the Dragon/DML figure sets. I believe I have most of the Nam set and all of the Modern Elite Forces sets.

PPS. Cheyenne I'll take a run to the LHS in a few days to see if they are still there but I haven't been there all summer. I'll let you know
Pak_40
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 04:21 AM UTC
Hello again,
Well I see we are still kvetching on the Allied front. Sure we Americans, Canadians and Western Europeans would like to see more American and Allied stuff(I am an exception to that), but the vast majority of builders are in Asia. Ever read any of the Japanese monthly model magazines or see any of there stuff on-line. Mein Gott! One of their monthly's are about as thick as 6 months of Scale Modeler. And even then, military is in the minority. Robots, cars, planes and non-military figures are an enormous part of the modelling industry. But that is little to do with the subject at hand, except for the fact that manufacturers have a lot on there plates in a very tight market. That being said, you can see why kit makers are mostly doing what will sell. Oh well, I digress, Allied material will never sell as well as German material because of the market where kits sell the most. We can ask, demand, cry, whine, kvetch and be generally mishugunah about what we want to see. If a company does not see a profit for itself in its major market it may not come out with a what minority of builders want to see.
This was a tiny lesson in marketing 101.

Chris- Yes, I like the new Panther G from Dragon
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 05:42 AM UTC
So are you saying that every single Dragon German figure kit out there was a bonfide hit and that not even the best selling Dragon allied figure kit beat the worst selling Dragon German figure kit?

If that's the case then Dragon has made a big mistake by releasing less profitable allied kits. If not then Dragon is missing an opportunity by trading off less profitable German kits for more profitable allied kits.
erichvon
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 06:11 AM UTC
Chris what is kvetch? Is that like some sort of weird Czech ketchup? Your rationale is odd to say the least. As Alan pointed out German Ski Troops sold well (hint of sarcasm). Where did they go? Nowhere . The Dieppe Kriegsmarine for sale at a dollar? Says it all. Dragon has deleted more crap German kits than they've released Allied ones. When I say crap I'm not talking about the mouldings I'm talking about their versatility. DML have released some fantastic German stuff we'd just like to see the same for the Allies. What's so wrong with that?
erichvon
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 06:14 AM UTC
Oh and before I forget Jim R...me and Al are neither knight or squire. We like to think of ourselves as a vickers crew but we take it in turns to be gunner and no2 :-) :-) :-)
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 09:06 AM UTC
Kvetching- Funny for such a fan of Germans and Nazis that you would choose a word with Yiddish lineage.

Anyway I would not really consider my statements complaining. I grudgingly accept the manufacturers' paradigm that German sells and Allied smells. Personally I'm not expecting 50/50. That's not going to happen unless something changes significantly. It's more like amazement that allied cannot get just one or two sets of common, interesting and useful poses while everything German, including the most mundane subjects, gets manufactured.
Pak_40
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 12:01 PM UTC
Hi,
I see that without meaning too that I have struck a nerve. I know not all German sets will sell well, but the majority of them will sell better than their Allied counterparts. That was not my point, Japan is the top market for modelling and basically, they like German stuff. Hong Kong and China are 2 other large markets, a lot of their stuff is German in manufacture too.
About using the word kvetch, my model building choice has nothing to do with my politics. That was kind of insulting anyway.
But I digress, market area has the most to do with new kit choice and that is what the majority want. American and Allied equipment is still coming out, maybe not at the pace of some, but still coming anyway.
As I have also pointed out, has anyone seen Perth Military Modelling lately. To reiterate, AFV Club is coming out with a new M40. Been to Colorado Miniatures? They have a lot of new Allied figures. How about Hobby Link Japan? I see a bit of Allied coming out there.
I guess the KVETCHing and kibbitzing will continue, until we are blue, maybe green, in the face. But that is our choice.

By the way, growing up in southern New England, you learn a lot of things, including Yiddish.

Chris- nothing to apologize for
jimbrae
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 01:57 PM UTC
Putting aside the non-commercial arguments for a moment, let me try and see where the two schools of thought are coming from on this:

Allied: since the 're-birth' of DML, the quality and innovation has just been staggering. Am I correct in (to cut thru all the verbiage) that what you really want is simply to get figures of the same quality as the Axis builders?

Axis: Not everything is as 'rosy' as it seems. Only recently have we been given the Panther that has been needed. We have all the 88s we could need (for the moment) but we're STILL lacking a modern Sd Kfz 7. On the same subject we're lacking softskins, artillery and (dare I say it) a mid-war Tiger 1. In figures, I admit, we're in a strong position.

One area which may improve, (due to the release of the M4a2) will be figures for the Pacific theater, another influence could well be the 'Flags of Our Fathers' movie, which could stimulate more interest in this area.

Again, one of the problems is the interests people have - Eastern Front is still the biggest subject area. Areas like the Western Desert (and yes it sticks in MY throat as well) don't generate too much interest in the Far East - ultimately where the sales figures are immensely important...

Pilgrim
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 02:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Putting aside the non-commercial arguments for a moment, let me try and see where the two schools of thought are coming from on this:

Allied: since the 're-birth' of DML, the quality and innovation has just been staggering. Am I correct in (to cut thru all the verbiage) that what you really want is simply to get figures of the same quality as the Axis builders?

Axis: Not everything is as 'rosy' as it seems. Only recently have we been given the Panther that has been needed. We have all the 88s we could need (for the moment) but we're STILL lacking a modern Sd Kfz 7. On the same subject we're lacking softskins, artillery and (dare I say it) a mid-war Tiger 1. In figures, I admit, we're in a strong position.




That seems like a pretty fair summary to me. I think the point about sales of a generic, quality allied kit compared to a very specific axis kit (the Dieppe Naval troops for example) is valid.

I suppose that, when you get down to it there's such a range of possible kits that DML will never run out of subjects, and therefore there'll always someone not getting the model they're dreaming off. Ultimately, I guess people's persistence over this subject depends on how reasonable we feel our requests are.


Sean
AlanL
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Posted: Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 03:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Putting aside the non-commercial arguments for a moment, let me try and see where the two schools of thought are coming from on this:

Allied: since the 're-birth' of DML, the quality and innovation has just been staggering. Am I correct in (to cut thru all the verbiage) that what you really want is simply to get figures of the same quality as the Axis builders?





Hi Jim,

Correct to a point, it is not just an issue about quality, although of course everyone wants that. As there will always be a very limited number of Allied figures their design needs to be as versitile as possible and maybe backed up with a few different equipment sets.

If I get a set of 6 fgures and three of them are in shirt sleeve order and one has an open greatcoat then I can probably use those three in any theater of war and the guy in the great in the desert or in a winter setting. My options have just increased by 100%. We are all used to trying to get the maximum number of poses from what is currently available and as it is likely that only 1 or 2 new sets might appear then the greater the flexability of those figures the better.

As well as quality and interesting poses I think it is useability that will help them sell for years to come.

Cheers

Al