Hello Gents
I read threads with this particular subject with much interest as
I am in the figure market. I can't speak for the big companies,
but here's what I have to say:

I can tell you that business is difficult as it is to make and sell
already market-proven items like German tankers. It's not like
we are making tons of money selling German figures and not
paying attention to Allied stuff. We are making German figures
to stay in business.... barely, that is.

From Alpine figures, the worst selling figures are the Brit tanker
and the modern russian tanker. I will have to see these figures
start selling more before I decide to make new Brits and modern
Russian figures. It's as simple as that.

There are tons of online threads asking for Allied stuff, but all
these requests don't get translated into sales. So why would
anyone waste money, time and effort to lose out at the end?
This type of online threads won't convince any manufacturers.

DML, Tamiya, Academy, and other smaller companies do get
brave enough to release Allied stuff time to time. When they do,
show support instead of ripping them a part on online reviews.
Go out an buy them as many kits as Axis modelers would buy
their Tigers and Panthers. Only then Allied modelers can say,
"We are as big of a market, and we demand our kits NOW".

Do I hear, "Yeah, but.... No, but..., Yeah, but.... No, but...." ???
(I did watch "Little Britain")

TS

Well said Taesung! Yes, I model mainly Axis, although I have been known to dip my toe in the Allied water, but there aren't many modeller's who would say they didn't want to see more Allied stuff. Economics must be the driving force though.

Vinnie

Greetings all,

Hmmmm, axes to grind....

Lets clear up some misconceptions here.

I have no axe to grind against you Jim, neither have I an axe to grid against Dragon who I think make outstanding kits be thay Axis or Allied and I have said as much on many occasions.

My point is very simple more Allied figures and kits would give greater choice to everybody and I believe if the kits were well chosen then they would appeal to model makers from both sides, and sell well.

Yes, I'd like more British stuff, but I'm equally pleased when I see any new kit come out because I know it's going to make someone very happy. If they bring out Marines, Japanese, Australians, Canadians, Chinese, Russians, French or even more Germans then great because those kits will help and please a lot of people.

If I built German stuff then I'd want kits that gave me, captured/dead/wounded enemy, engineers to attack my bunkers, allied medics I could incorporate into my dios, MGs and Mortars for my troops to sneek up on and attack across as wide a theatre of operational settings as possible.

This isn't about Axis v Allied this is about the serious lack of choice modellers have in Allied 1/35 plastic injection figures and getting value for your hard earned money.

I'd rather buy a box of 6 plastic injection figures that I can model in different ways than spend even more to get one, be it all very good resin figure, that is limited in it's use.

Those remain my thoughts.

Cheers all.

Al

Nice to see the good old chestnuts coming up time & time again!
I remember when I was a kid, & all there was was Airfix & Revell, I used to moan about the fact that there wasn't much German stuff about! Airfix's output was mostly British & American (fair enough, it was a British company), Revells was almost 100% American subjects (once again, fair enough for a US company). I presume at that time the market was virtually all European & American, & the Far East market was non-existant. Then along came Tamiya. They made better kits of the subjects everyone had been crying out for, after them the deluge. Now the boot is firmly on the other foot.
What needs to be considered is this - if you're making kits for fun, why not try a few German ones, they are addictive. Once you've dipped your toe in the water, there's plenty to go at. If you're doing it to make some kind of statement, I'm afraid you need a reality check. Allied subjects just don't make a lot of money. If you really feel that fired up about it, have a go at doing some yourself - there is a gap in the market, which is exploited by companies like Accurate Armour.
I admit that I model mostly German subjects. It's something I drifted into at 16 that I've stuck with when I restarted at 40 something. I'm not anti - Allied, in fact I've made several Allied kits after seeing some of the results achieved on Armorama. I sometimes feel that there are almost too many German subjects, I know I will never model them all. If I did Allied stuff I'd have much more hope.
If you want to talk hard done to, imagine being interested in Classic motorcycles (as I am) & you wanted to model what you rode. No chance whatsoever. There are the old ex-Protar kits of the Manx Norton, Commando, Matchless & a couple of Guzzis & MVs. A very old kit of a Triumph by Revell & the ex-Matchbox Vincent. And that is IT. Will the big players like Tamiya, Dragon etc make any? What do you think?

I agree that there's a lack of allied figures, of any brand, and it limits the diorama/vignette possibilities and I find it boring.

But it's not only Dragon's fault. Dragon is one of many model manufacturers and the others in the Industry (Tristar, Trumpeter, Tamyia, AFV club, etc ) they follow almost the same ratio of germans v.s. allied releases.

Maybe the reason is that german stuff DOES look better than allied one. Maybe you would be amazed of how many people would pick up a Sdkfz 251 over a M3 half-track, even if they would be of equal availability, quality and price. The same for Shermans v.s. Panzer's familly, weak and bulky allied anti-tank gun v.s. massive and splendid Pak.

Why model a Ford is you prefer the look of a Ferrari?

The rest is just buisness.

I rest my case... :-)

No one is arguing that there is a chasm the size of the Atlantic Ocean in terms of allied vs. axis subjects, but as Taesung noted it's not the manufacturers who dictate what sells. That is you guys. And all the wishing in the world is not going to make Dragon, Tamiya, or any other major manufacturer change their sales figures and suddenly realize they have been doing it "all wrong" these past 30 years. If you want to be peeved at someone why don't you at least direct your ire where it belongs instead of (again) picking on DML and their contributions to the hobby in recent years. Perhaps you would rather they didn't release hardly anything new like a few other manufacturers do these days? The majority of WWII modelers find German subjects fascinating. That is a statement of fact.

I am also getting tired of the whole "I know Dragon is a contributor and supporter of this site" remark. There has never been an incident where I have given Dragon preferential treatment because of their support here. Nor have I with any other vendor or manufacturer. And for the record Jim Rae and Vinnie were already outspoken DML supporters before they ever even joined the staff here. What am I suppose to tell them "Hey you two... stop liking Dragon stuff!". :-)

Cheers,
Jim

Thanks Jim, Check's in the mail....

I used to be one of the biggest complainers on this site about this subject a few years ago, however as much as me or any other allied modellers gripe about it it we arent going to suddenly generate a deluge of new kits.

Sniping at news stories etc isnt productive even if it might feel like you are expressing your opinion.

I still dont buy the market forces arguament as to my knowledge no-one has ever put the facts down for us to see. My personal opinion is that should a greater range of subjects become available more people would buy them and allied or modern kits may become more profitable. That said i am not privy to the opinions or facts the model manufacturers may have so my opinion may be wishful thinking.

My model output is slow enough to justify the price of resin kits of the subjects i want to build, so for the time being im quite happy to be lining the pockets of companies such as Accurate Armour.

On the other hand, i do quite like the DML 234/4 im building, it will look nice with a couple of squaddies robbing trophies from it

Tongue in cheek response follows:

I've always thought Dragon's goal was to produce a figure of every German who fought in WW2. I'm suprised we haven't seen Germans in US MP disguises yet. They would be big sellers for the Battle of the Bulge modelers. I wonder when we'll se the German latrine digging party as a figure set?

Honestly, if Dragon does not produce the figures you desire, buy some other manufacturer's product. It would be nice to see some more US/UK figures, but they have to make what sells to stay in business.

Without wishing to rehash the same lines, because many of the comments I have echo those of others here which are about the pure economics of running a business.

I just wanted to say that I was not being sarcastic Karl, when I said that Airfix is up for grabs, my meaning which Jim picked up was, if you think you know better than businessmen who are behind the likes of Dragon and Tamiya, go and do something about it.

As has been suggested go and do the research, take the photos, measure the angles and present a proper R+D Package. Then sell the potential, to the people that will have to put their money into the project.

I think though that they will take some convincing to change their business direction.

John

I don't think people direct their ire at DML because they don't feel the company contributes to the hobby. Quite the opposite. It's because DML have contributed so much to the hobby. I don't think any other company releases as many kits as DML in a year. I don't think any other company releases kits of such consistenlyt high quality as DML. I don't think any other company introduces so many new technologies into creating their kits as DML. I don't think any other manufacturer offers as much value for money in their kits as DML. And this is the frustration for modellers who are keen on Allied subjects. It's like being allergic to nuts and then put in a sweet shop (candy store to you ) where every lovely confectionary has nuts in it. :-). Allied modellers are, basically, just jealous at all those lovely Axis kits DML release

If we're all so keen on Allied subjects, then I guess we'd all have paid £80 for some of the resin kits Vinnie's widowed friend was selling. And if we have the funds and skills to deal with resin then there plenty of Allied kits out there, thanks to Accurate Armour, Resicast and a few others... but we don't all have the funds or skills to do that.

Ah yes, Resicast. They seem to do very well in the difficult resin market selling predominantly Allied kits. Tamiya's Char B1 seems to be selling very well. Do Resicast kits and the Char B sell because most modellers only want axis subjects?

I don't expect DML to make a loss just to please a few nutters like me in the Commonwealth :-) . I think if they released Allied kits they'd make a profit, for the reasons stated above. If it's worth their time to release a Sherman in Russian livery, then why not a Churchill or M3 halftrack with so many different marks just a sprue or two away?

Anyway, as ever, respect and gratitude to all the staffers.


Sean

Well I was going to post my thoughts here but I don't really need to, Vinnie, Jim, and others, have already done so for me. (thank you gentlemen ) As I've said before, this is a very tired subject, and whether or not it's here on Armorama, or another site, for the most part it seems to be the same people moaning and groaning all the time, maybe that's why some of us get so tired of it.

Soliciting the thoughts of the "20K" members of this site is but a drop in the bucket regardless of what some may think. To start with how many of those 20,000 are active on the site and participate in the forums? I don't know, but I'd bet it's a smaller % than you might think. I personally know several guys locally who are "members" but rarely ever log on, much less post to the forums. Also, I highly doubt we have the "cream of the crop", as someone put it in another thread last night, here on this site. That is not meant to be a knock, I know there are many good modelers who frequent the site, but I have found out just attending local, regional, and National shows, there are many more excellent modelers out there who don't even mess with the internet or modeling sites. (and that's just here in the U.S.) In conclusion I ended up posting some thoughts anyway, but bottom line these companies are in this business to make money and they are going to go with what will make the most for themselves. (for the record I build what I like, that includes Allied, Axis, and modern, so yes I'd like to see a little more variety but the complaining and e-mail campaigns do very little if any good)

Mike

I know the point you are trying to make, but there is a big difference between boxing a Sherman in Russian markings with completely tooling up a Churchill or other vehicle that they do not have in their inventory. Their Sherman stables are so full that a few sprue swaps and a new set of decals results in an entirely "different" Sherman kit.

In answer to the original thread, yes i'd love to see more allied kits from dragon, especially the rumoured US half track, but stop buting Axis?? SWMBO would think something was wrong.

We should all be gratefull to DML for the highly detailed reasonably priced offerings they produce - i remember the bad old days of only being Airfix and Revell and the poor quality thereof.

Andy

For those who doubt, it is more than likely these threads have been read by someone at Dragon. I generally follow them but seldom resond as it can be rather like spitting into the wind; rather pointless and sometimes
messy! :-)

Suffice it to say, I build mostly Allied subjects and very much wish that there were more figure subjects that we could choose from. I try to design
the Allied figure sets to benefit most of us, but I know that it is a impossible job to please us all. Nonetheless, I've managed to get a few
six figure sets authorized which perhaps provides us more raw material.
I would hope that before I am done with this business, that we would have many more sets to work with.

But I know that the money is in the German stuff. The modeller doesn't need to see Dragon's financial papers to see this. There is a very nice public source that is supplied by our modelling colleagues themselves
at the Track-Link Gallery. There one will see that out of 3519 entries,
1477 are of German WWII subjects. US WWII amounts to 280 and British
WWII show 199. Naturally, many will have some dispute with this as a record and I wouldn't disagree about it not being exactly scientific but I would suggest that it is somewhat representative of our modelling community. At the very least, it gives one something to ponder.

Cheers,
Ron V

Greetings all,

Well put Sean.

Cheers

Al

If you are bored and find these discussions tired and non-productive, why post?? Seriously there are hundreds of threads on here. You don't see people going on obscure threads about markings of Hungarian armor (just an example), and declaring this thread is boring and pointless!
When news articles of almost anything/any company come up there are alot of people that just read them and just continue on, without strong feelings either way. BUT..with thausands of members, not all of which know the history of the debate (ie newbies), someone is bound to say, hey what about this other subject, when are we going to see that? If that angers you so much....why not say that up front? Put in a little disclaimer. PLEASE ONLY POSITIVE RESPONSES ABOUT THIS ARTICLE. DON'T MENTION ANY OTHER KIT OR ANY WISH LIST YOU MAY HAVE. PLEASE LETS NOT GET INTO THE AXIS/ALLIED DEBATE. Wouldn't that clear up these little flame wars? Not just the"comments and opinions are welcome", because its obvious some of the opions and comments that wander of topic, that you get on the news stories, get the staff annoyed.

(great smiley, very useful Jim )
From my non-figurine point of view:

I build Allied mostly, sometimes something modern but not past 1989 and very little but some early war panzergrau or DAK Germans.. Dragon make more German kits than anything else? Fine by me, they don't have too make Allied kits at all, I'll just won't buy what I dont like in their inventory. Instead there are quite a few new Allied or 'Nam kits brought by other companies every year. There's so much of it that (at the rate I'm building)even if I've had funds for it, it would last me probably a lifetime to build what's already on the market in the Allied sector. The conclusion?

DML isn't only modeling company in the world (well whaddaya know? )
Go build something Allied from DML's competition menu and be happy with it, stop complaining for the lack of Allied stuff, just others than DML are producing it...
All that excluding Shermans ofcourse

Just my 2 euro cents worth :-)
Cheer up people, modeling world is too beatiful t complain!

Greg

Greetigns all,

This thread always makes me laugh. I wonder at what point a wish or desire suddenly becomes a complaint?

If I'd like to see a Plastic Injection Sherman DD - is that a wish or a complaint?

If I'd like to see more Plastic Injection Allied figure sets - is that a wish or a complaint?

Is one manufaturer being singled out here? "No, they are not."

Do I care who migth make a new set of Plastic Injection Allied figures, "No, I don't."

Would I like to see more choice, "Yes, I would."

The majority, if not all of the replies to this post would seem to be in favour of more choice in the 1/35 Plastic Injection Allied Figure World.

How do companies like Accurate Armour and Resicast survive if there is little demand for allied kits especially given vast difference in price? (not for one moment taking away from the excellent and accurate kits they produce).

Therefore, the question might be 'is there a gap in the market that plastic injection manufaturers could fill and profit from'? I believe there is, whether or not they decide to take up that challenge is a matter for them.

I won't stop me living in hope :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Cheers all,

Al

Edit: As of this moment there have been 486 hits on this post with 44 replies. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it.

Well not really. A lot of it is the usual, he who shouts loudest and repeats the same things ad infinitum. There are some gems in it, particularly the comments from Ron and Taesung... This kinda makes me wonder...

As a postscript to my previous post (while we're playing the meaningless statistics game ) the News on the figure set which prompted this thread:




- as the instigator described it, has been viewed over 3100 times. Not bad for such an 'infuriating' release from DML?

While I cannot argue that overall German sells I certainly cannot see that every one of those German figure kits sell well. My LHS is selling DML German Gendarmes with the dogs and German Dieppe kits for $1each. After two months they are still there. Could we not have done without the expense and time for these terrible selections for just a couple of Allied tank riders?

Weather you manufacture models or beer, the majority that spends the most on a certain product, = the manufacture of that product.
No one on this site can honestly say " I only buy and model allied stuff, exclusivly ", [ well maybe a couple ], somebody is driving German stuff sales.
I'm sorry but Jim, Vinnie, Jim, etc. are not saying anything other than, THEY ARE MAKING IT CAUSE IT SELLS.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to see all kinds of Allied stuff from early war Marines with tin hats to Philippine [ I looked up the sp. ] scouts.
I feel for those that feel they are not getting thier Allied kits, I'm not trying to argue, I do recognise the point of having thier voices heard, and mine is one.
I just don't think we are enough.

Ok that said, who is taking Miami and 3, and who is going with Pittsburg tommorrow night.

Cheyenne

Errr, ahhhh, Alan if you wouldn't mind could you pick up those 1$ kits and send them my way, I'll pay shipping and send you cash first.
Cheyenne