After moaning about the latest Dragon release (yet more Germans standing about doing nothing much) and being berrated for expressing an opinion off topic (which was a fair point) and being told to "buy Airfix now it's in receivership and release Allied vehicles" I thought I would canvas opinion. It would appear that DML have a rather strange obsession with all things German or is it just me that thinks that? Their figure range...Two boxes of British Infantry, 10 figures in all for NW Europe. One box of Para's...4 figures. Box of SAS...4 figures.There's a limit to how much you can multipose from that. 18 figures,WOW! So generous! Americans come out better...3 boxes of Airborne,1 of 2nd Armoured (thats useful seeing as they used those uniforms for about a month), 29th Inf, Bazooka set, Support weapons Remagen set. 2 lots of USMC (but only one set of Japs). Now I've just checked the Dragon website...There are 65 German figure sets not including the new one or deleted ones which are still obtainable.That's at least 260 figures and there may be some I've missed. I can't understand why they released Afrika Korps or the Crete fallschimjager when there was no Allies for them to fight? Piles of Germans for an Ardennes dio but pretty much no Americans. Were there no Allies in the Desert? Were there no Allies in Burma? Were there no Japs in the Pacific? It does make you wonder. I've been told I ought to either buy Airfix or sculpt my own. Neither is an option. I don't have the cash so Airfix is out. Sculpting...Tried it before and they looked like mutants so gave up. While DML do some cracking figures and I can't fault them for accuracy and moulding I just wish they'd realise that there were other nations involved in WW2! After all the Allies won! Discuss!

Oh incidentally, we do live in a democracy and if you disagree feel free to put your point across and I will listen to it without making sarcastic or patronising comments

They're not intrested in how many nations there were, or who fought who. They're not historians...........they make models, for a profit. They make mostly what will make them most profit. We've had this argument time and time again. Quite rightly, they couldn't care less whether the Ghurkha regiment is well represented in plastic or not.

Vinnie

Problem is, (if you consider it a problem at all) until the German figure sets quit selling they have no reason to do anything other than an occasional release of allied figures.
The manufacturors have a known quanity in German figure kits. Why take what may be preceived as a risk when you already have a winning fomula?
I'm not overly thrilled by it but these are the facts of life here in 2006.

Cheers,
Charles

And that is exactly why I've started this thread Vinnie. This argument will go on and on ad infinitum. All I am attempting to do is create a neutral thread whereby modellers can express their opinion on DML's production in relation to their lack of Allied figures/ Vehicles. I realise that DML is a sponsor of the site but unless the modeller's point of view is heard they'll keep regurgitating variants of half tracks and if everyone says "that's great" they'll miss out on kits that could be profitable. These days they are the leading manufacturer in 1/35th scale models. That's without a doubt both technically and by volume. However....You talk about profit. What is to say that if they did not diversify they would not make a profit? The lack of Allied models is a sore point for many modellers and all I am attempting to do is have our voice heard. What is the problem with that? By canvassing opinion is the same as market research.

I for one would like to see more allied armour. Apart from a single (experimental on my part) sherman I have old kits of the Valentine , and Bishop SPG (which came with the wrong instructions and is being assembled by guesswork)

I don't believe for one second that a company like DML can't bring some new allied armour and a few new allied troop sets if only to see what kind of response they get with them.

If Tamiya can produce a whole new 1/48 armour line, why is it such a stretch for DML to do something new and different.




And german figures are unlikely to stop selling until there is more selection available.

Catch22

We know it, they know it. We've had this topic before...............loads and loads of times. Dragon already know how you feel. Also of note is the fact that they don't regurgitate as you put it, variants of halftracks. They produce excellent models at really good prices. Nice to see that you're trying to get in their good books though! :-) :-) :-)
And it's nice to see that you can't believe that Dragon can't bring out a few allied sets to test the market, since they have brought out allied figure sets, so they have tested the market haven't they?

Vinnie

Yes that's possibly why Hannants were out of stock for two months of the British Normandy set when they came out. They sold out straight away... Maybe regurgitate was the wrong word .. As I've said before DML is becoming the McDonalds of the modelling world. Very rich, monopolises the marketplace, if there's not a Burger King in the town you go to Mc D's when you fancy a burger. Not really what you fancy but it's there so you buy it. "Well I actually came in looking for an injection moulded DD tank but as you've not got one I'll go away with another Tiger kit...or should I buy this new German half track?". Vinnie it's common knowledge that you like building German stuff and you do it superbly but there are some of us who prefer building Allied vehicles and figures for one reason or another. We'd just like to see a bit of a shift in the balance. That's all. Considering there are 20,000 members here it would be good to see their opinions. I would assume (rightly or wrongly) that people here are kit buyers on a regular basis. While a small percentage of worldwide sales, the fact that they are enthusiastic enough about the hobby (as that is what it is) to comment speaks volumes.

Hi Karl,

I've been down this road myself and couldn't agree more about the lack of choice in plastic injection 1/35 Allied figures.

I've read all the arguments although no one ever says where the data comes from, and I'm a sound believer that there are areas within the market for more allied subjects that would be equally as appealing to modellers of Axis stuff and would sell well.

I believe from what I've read that Dragon are taking a little more interest in Allied subjects and as I always live in hope maybe with their new range of Shermans they will produce some tank crew and some more infantry.

There has been many a heated argument on this subject and personally I believe that by keeping the topic alive there is a better hope of getting some new kits than just sitting back and accepting the status quo.

Tamiya are equally as bad if not worse having gone nowhere since the British Partol set.

I frequent e-mail Dragon congratulating them on their outstanding kits and have sent them lists of 'Gaps in the Market' where I felt they could make a profit on Allied sets. I couldn't care less whether they think I'm mad or not, reminding them does no harm what-so-ever.

Expect a lot of unnecessary flak, but the forums are for expressing your opinon and I believe there are a lot more Allied modellers around than are credited for.

I also believe that more choice is better for everyone and anything that might help create that is welcome.

Trends change and sales of kits must rise and fall accordingly but lets face it, any new half decent kit set will continue to sell for years to come as there is so little there already.

I know all about the scarastic and patronising comments, selected quotes etc, but it takes all sorts to make a world so don't sweat it.

Lets hope this post is an informative one and doesn't turn into a flame war.

I shall now go and dig a deep trench LOL, LOL :-) :-) :-) :-)

Cheers all and happy modelling

Al

Well, I suppose it's time some of the misconceptions were cleared up. Firstly however, let me just express a couple of opinions...

I'm getting increasingly bored, tired and frustrated, by the attitude of one or two individuals who, it seems (at best) have a major dose of ax-grinding whenever a new (German) release appears in the News Section. At worst, this turns into a bad case of sniping (with their little popguns) at the messenger :-) .. This is however, balanced by the overwhelming majority (non-Peanut Gallery members) who accept the new releases with constructive comments, or, if the subject doesn't interest them, no comment at all.... Silence is frequently

Back however, to the subject at hand. As Vinnie so correctly and eloquently pointed out, DML is in the business to make money. It ISN'T (unless i'm grossly mistaken) some subsidized NGO whose sole purpose is to keep tiny minorities happy... They, like any other succesful business create products which sell. Market forces. Nor are they (thank God) composed of either Historians or Modellers - they have people like Ron Volstad to do this job for them. I deal with employees of DML on a regular basis and they are hard-headed, professional business people who DON'T let sentiment get in the way of a succesful business.

This thread, like many of the others in this 'debate', offers little which is either new nor constructive. Rather, in my somewhat jaundiced view, it's little more than an attack on a company for not PERSONALLY discussing their new release schedule with Karl or Alan.

Also, as i've repeated many times, if you want DML to change their release policy, don't keep badgering them with suggestions - go thru some of those involved with properly documented ideas (and I don't mean a couple of photos) and, who knows, you (just) might get taken seriously.

For us it's a HOBBY for the manufacturers, it's a BUSINESS - please apply for the full graphical presentation of the significance of the difference...Jim

Look in a mirror. When was the last time you bought a German WWII model?

If you could get everyone on this site not to buy a German model for a 3 to 6 month time span and purchase only allied models what would happen? I'm sure you'll see a scramble to come up with some additional allied models.

Why won't this happen, because you have a vast majority of modelers that thrive and get their life’s energy from buying anything German. Which means that is what sells and that’s what is going to put butter on the manufactures table.

This is changing at a snails pace, when they do put out an allied kit what is the first thing that happens, you get everyone who knows everything there is to know about the subject in questions and rips it apart because it is 1 fraction of 1/32 off a slope or some such thing. Which again reverts back to putting butter on their table. Bad press bad sales. Why bother, you can make a 3 in 1 German and sell a million copies.

Untill the majority of modelers change their focus and stop buying the German stuff this trend will not go away. We are our own worst enemy.

That said I have to look up and buy a decent track set for my tiger. And I'm still waiting for that M4 Tarawa version to be released from Dragon.

Bob

Jim, I hate to say this but I have started a legitimate thread for modellers to express their opinions about DML's production schedule in relation to the balance of German and Allied figures/AFV's. No-one has been abusive or defamatory towards an individual therefore it is a legitimate topic. I do however feel that your comment..."This thread, like many of the others in this 'debate', offers little which is either new nor constructive. Rather, in my somewhat jaundiced view, it's little more than an attack on a company for not PERSONALLY discussing their new release schedule with Karl or Alan." is unjustified.
Both myself and Al prefer to build Allied models. Are we not entitled to an opinion? Or is it that we have an opinion that clashes with yours? Maybe if you stopped the sniping (you're not that good at it by the way ) the thread could actually move on to peoples opinions. Nuff said!

Karl, sniping back is not the correct way now is it? Part of the problem is caused by your claim to be introducing a legitimate topic, yet the use of words such as 'regurgitating' belies this. People will get defensive. Also expressions such as 'unless the modeller's point of view is heard' exhibits a basic lack of understanding on the topic. The modeller's point of view has been heard, and that's why we get mostly German. :-)

Vinnie

In answer to your thread Karl, YES I would like to see more varied Allied injection kits. Period.
Oh and gnite

Vinnie, I always said I wouldn't bite back at Jim but I did this time. However this thread is a couple of hours old and 4 out of 5 modellers who weren't involved in dodging behind bricks to avoid sniping have echoed the same sentiments. Lets let it run and see where it goes. Pax?

Bradley, so would I. But that wasn't the original question. :-)

Vinnie

. Almost forgot! I ordered two boxes of the Masterbox German POW's from Hannants this morning to go into my Normandy dio. Thanks for the heads up Jim. Sourced them and read a review on Track-link. Look very useful for Allied modellers as they're late war generic Germans.

All too often, the A vs A debate comes down to a cultural thing.. Maybe a Chinese company DOESN'T see a great imbalance in the subjects they produce. On the other hand, the owners of DML are Canadians, so....

Please, don't selectively choose my comments as being 'Anti-Allied' - I have a strong interest in both. As to expressing contrary opinions, perhaps the proviso should have been put in:

'Only 100% Allied Modellers May Respond'

Sure as hell, from where i'm sitting, this is what it looks like....Jim :-)

I would love to see more Allied subject.

'Only 100% Allied Modellers May Respond'

Sure as hell, from where i'm sitting, this is what it looks like....Jim :-) [/quote]

This is not what the thread was about. The whole point of it is beneficial to both Axis and Allied modellers. Normandy for example....My point is if you want to portray a knocked out Churchill/ Firefly/ Cromwell with a Panther driving by with German infantry you're laughing. Contrary to popular belief these weren't the only Allied vehicles used in WW2.If you want to portray anything from a British/Polish point of view you're scratching in the dust. Burma? North Africa? Italy? No chance. Japanese even less chance. Lets keep this adult and let people express their opinions.

If I may permit, just to express my opinions.
Since I have 10 years old and I build 1/35, I 've bought 99% of germans kits.We can say I'm a german enthousiast ! But It's now 15 years I build germans stuff, and since two years, I have tought it was time for me to change and try allies. And I agree with with Alan and Erich, the choice is absolutely poor...

I think the asian market is found of german stuff. Why ? I don't have the answer. And as it was said Dragon is a company created for profit, not for the balanced representation of the whole fighting forces in ww2, based in Asia, and logically they first review expected revenues for a kit, before lauching it, in their nearest market : Asia. It leads to german stuff most of the time.

Now let's look at other companies.

Last Tamyia big productions were Le char B1 bis and le char Leclerc, both of them french tanks. Italieri produced 2 nice kit belonging to italian forces in the desert. Not exactely Allied, but not a very representated nation in the scale model world..MasterBox released British comandos, US paras, Allied celebrating victory...2 over 3 Miniart kits represent Soviet troops. I think I've enumerated most of the best plastic kit producers in the market today for figures (because I'm mainly interested in figures)

These producers go where Dragon is non or under represented. I do not think theses company are in bankruptcy, It's even the contrary I think. They are growing fast, for the two last of them. They reproduced the scheme Dragon did when it started : Dragon released kits of german soldiers or vehicles which were not released by the other manufacturers eg identificable units, during a precise operation, or tanks produced in small units, not representated by tamiya and Italieri etc. Then when they had enough profits and know how/reserach which took time to develop, they released GEN 2 figures and high quality tanks.

To my mind, same tactic for the new comers : unreleased kit, like british comandos, allied during victory days, soviet tankers, artillery etc. And they becomes greater in details and original poses at each releases. Miniart example is spokeless. Quality is growing, originality also. But we could also critisize Miniart for doing only german and russian subjects. No problem, if I want german I go for Dragon. I want russian, I definitively go for Miniart. I want original poses, I go for MasterBox, I want cheap kit with acceptable details, I go for zvezda..etc...Finally, we have the choice. Not the best quality all the time, but choice.

But what will make the great difference in the future, I think, it's the price. Sorry but I'm not Cresus, and when I go for a kit, first thing I pay attention is price. Dragon create now really high standard quality kits, but price have rosen dramatically. And only few modellers will pay many bucks for a kit. Most of the non experienced or young modellers will go for cheapper kits, with acceptable details. Hey com'on ! videogames are really expensive and it's more funny, you can share it with friends etc...teenager budget is not extendable ! So if you want to experience scale models, by curiosity during hollidays, you won't buy the most expensive on the market...

A sign of this could be the price of the last figures kit released by Dragon and which have lead to this debate : Stalingrad Inferno. Jim told us the price will be very resonnable ! Why ? When you make a nice turnover, you usually don't decide to lower the price just for the fun. I guess Dragon want to experience a lower price for this kit to test the market and the sale volume..maybee because Dragon have now serious and young competitors cheaper than him...

And let's consolate us Alan and Erich..german armors and uniforms have an end...let's wait...

My two cents thoughts.

Best,

Julien

Jim, if you supplied me with the details of the relevant person at DML to e-mail once this thread has run it's course I would be more than happy to mail them a list of wants from Allied modellers. Obviously I'd mail you it first to make sure it was not in anyway offensive to them.

I mostly model german subjects and think that DML is doing a great job. Their technology and advancement is second to none. I do hope that they release some more russian WW2 subjects. I hear what Allied people are saying but I think that eventually DML will release some Allied vehicles. Remember that there is a finite number of german subjects

On a side note, I never knew that the owners of Dragon are Canadians. Keep on rolling fellow Canucks

I'd really like to see Dragon do more Allied stuff, particularly stuff in the middle price and size range, like scout cars, armoured cars and maybe some soft skins. Having said that, I've just bought 3 Axis AFVs from the widow's sale Vinnie's coordinating; evidence that I'm happy to build what's out there I guess (although the last time I bought a full kit from a shop it was Dragon's Firefly.

I guess im the frame of mind that sooner or later DML will run out of German subjects :-) :-) :-) , but then again they may just start going back through their back catalogue and update and re-issue every German subject as a premium kit

But as a predominantly Allied modeller I do find it frustrating as to the lack of reasonably priced Allied figures especially US and British tank crew.
However I am not blind to the fact that any profit making company would be silly to ignore market forces and this dictates what we get.


Ian