Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Look at this thrilling Dio

Jasta11

Joined: August 02, 2005
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 1 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 04:11 PM UTC
Dante provides a much clearer depiction of Hell in “The Inferno.” Nazis and Big Macs? Give me a break people, this is nothing more than smut!

Grumpyoldman


Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
Armorama: 7,297 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 05:21 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Soooooo...is the moral of the diorama "Don't eat at McDonald's"" ????



I guess they didn't like the shake and fries!

TacFireGuru

Joined: December 25, 2004
KitMaker: 3,770 posts
Armorama: 2,263 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 06:02 PM UTC
Aleksey, thanks for the link. Something very, very different.
Gruesome? Yes. Ridiculous? No. Art? Yes. Something I would do? No. Intriguing? Yes. Dark? Yes. Disturbing? Yes. Intriguing? Again, yes.
Okay, if one can fathom the "storyline" (hard to tell since I didn't see an overall picture of the dio), and get past the darkness....can you appreciate the quantity and quality of the various "diorama attributes?" Just look at the landscaping....the vehicles....the (heaven forbid) figures.
This isn't something that should be "pushed into some deep dark corner (where it probably spawned)," but looked at...and closely mind you. Get past the "display," look at what's involved.
My 2 pfennig's worth.
Mike
Gruesome? Yes. Ridiculous? No. Art? Yes. Something I would do? No. Intriguing? Yes. Dark? Yes. Disturbing? Yes. Intriguing? Again, yes.
Okay, if one can fathom the "storyline" (hard to tell since I didn't see an overall picture of the dio), and get past the darkness....can you appreciate the quantity and quality of the various "diorama attributes?" Just look at the landscaping....the vehicles....the (heaven forbid) figures.
This isn't something that should be "pushed into some deep dark corner (where it probably spawned)," but looked at...and closely mind you. Get past the "display," look at what's involved.
My 2 pfennig's worth.
Mike


Kuno-Von-Dodenburg

Joined: February 20, 2007
KitMaker: 1,453 posts
Armorama: 1,319 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 07:56 PM UTC
I have mixed feelings about it.
On the one hand, you have to admire the scale of the thing and the effort that someone was prepared to go to in order to realise it.
But on the other hand, like a lot of "surreal" 'art', it comes across as little more than pretentious nonsense aimed simply at achieving a "shock factor" under the pretense of making some sort of deep & meaningful statement.
- Steve
On the one hand, you have to admire the scale of the thing and the effort that someone was prepared to go to in order to realise it.
But on the other hand, like a lot of "surreal" 'art', it comes across as little more than pretentious nonsense aimed simply at achieving a "shock factor" under the pretense of making some sort of deep & meaningful statement.
- Steve
Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 08:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Good point Frank and if it was the artists intention to get a reaction he succeded, however does that qualify it as art?
Hi Darren. Define art!
With the amount of rubbish thats paraded today, under the umbrella of art, I think this will qualify.

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 08:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
it comes across as little more than pretentious nonsense aimed simply at achieving a "shock factor" under the pretense of making some sort of deep & meaningful statement.
Hi Steve. Agreed. Nazi Germany and McDonalds .... all the evils of the world combined.



jimbrae

Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 09:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry to burst your bubble there Craig but this kind of 'art' has NOTHING to do with conveying the scale and brutality of war and EVERYTHING to do with increasing the notoriety and fortunes of its creators.
If you want to see real art that deals with the horrors of war then go and visit the War Museum in London and see paintings by people who have actually experienced it.
Don't fall prey to the cynical, pretentious and ultimately worthless crap being touted by these morons and the whole Britart scene.
To explain further, the whole 'Britart' nonsence is full of garbage like this. The most notorious was undoubtedly the 'installation' which consisted of a full-sized bed along with the various (ahem) 'accessories' one would find in the bedroom..

It ceased to be art a while ago and is little more than a series of deliberate 'schlock' images which are designed to get the maximum publicity and cause the maximum level of indignation (thereby raising the price). Notoriety = Big bucks

The best reaction to this is a group of (highly-competent) artists called the 'Stuckists' - artists who have added their own components to this crap (and accused of being vandals in the process).
Quoted Text
Stuckism is an art movement that was founded in 1999 in Britain by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting in opposition to conceptual art. The Stuckists formed as an alternative to the Charles Saatchi-patronised Young British Artists (also known as Brit Art or abbreviated to YBAs). The original group of thirteen artists has since expanded to over 120 groups around the world. Childish left the group in 2001.
They have staged many shows, but have gained more attention for outspoken media comments and demonstrations, particularly outside Tate Britain against the Turner Prize, sometimes dressed in clown costumes. After exhibiting mainly in small galleries in Shoreditch, London, they were given their first show in a major public museum in 2004, The Walker Art Gallery as part of the Liverpool Biennial. Other campaigns mounted by the group include official avenues, such as standing for parliament, reporting Saatchi to the Office of Fair Trading to complain about his power in the art world, and applying under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for Tate Gallery trustee minutes, which started a media scandal about the purchase of Chris Ofili's work, The Upper Room (which led to an official rebuke of the Tate by the Charity Commission).

Here's a description of the 2007 Turner prize:
Quoted Text
The winner of the £25,000 Prize was Mark Wallinger. His display at the Turner Prize show was Sleeper, a film of him dressed in a bear costume wandering around an empty museum, but the prize was officially given for State Britain, which recreated all the objects in Brian Haw's anti-war display in Parliament Square, London. The judges commended Wallinger's work for its "immediacy, visceral intensity and historic importance", and called it "a bold political statement with art's ability to articulate fundamental human truths."
The prize was presented by Dennis Hopper
The 2003 prize:
Quoted Text
Attention was also given to transvestite Grayson Perry who exhibited pots decorated with sexual imagery, and was the prize winner. He wore a flouncy skirt to collect the prize, announced by Sir Peter Blake,
2005:
Quoted Text
A great deal was made in the press about the winning entry by Simon Starling, which was a shed that he had converted into a boat, sailed down the River Rhine and turned back into a shed again. Two newspapers bought sheds and floated them to parody the work.
Now, who gave the loons the keys to the asylum?



panther1121

Joined: December 28, 2006
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 54 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 09:53 PM UTC
i think this is grossly offensive,especialy were children can see it




jimbrae

Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 09:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
i think this is grossly offensive,especialy were children can see it
I think it's grossly offensive, especially where the INTELLIGENT can see it...


HippityHop

Joined: September 13, 2006
KitMaker: 181 posts
Armorama: 58 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 10:23 PM UTC
Hi Guys
I do not want to get embroiled in a battle of wills on this issue but I would like you to note that when the works of Manet, Monet, Picasso, Van Gogh (the list goes on) were originally exhibited they caused a similar reaction from the general public - they are now of course among the most highly regarded works of art produced by man. Equally, Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" when first performed almost casued a riot (literally) of public outrage.
I'm NOT suggesting that these works are on the same par but to be so disparraging just because something is different/ revolutionary is...
Beauty, and perhaps art as well, are in the eye of the beholder.
As I said, I don't want to get involved in a heated discussion - I just wanted to present an alternative perspective.
Cheers
Karol
I do not want to get embroiled in a battle of wills on this issue but I would like you to note that when the works of Manet, Monet, Picasso, Van Gogh (the list goes on) were originally exhibited they caused a similar reaction from the general public - they are now of course among the most highly regarded works of art produced by man. Equally, Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" when first performed almost casued a riot (literally) of public outrage.
I'm NOT suggesting that these works are on the same par but to be so disparraging just because something is different/ revolutionary is...
Beauty, and perhaps art as well, are in the eye of the beholder.
As I said, I don't want to get involved in a heated discussion - I just wanted to present an alternative perspective.
Cheers
Karol

spooky6

Joined: May 05, 2005
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
Armorama: 582 posts

Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 10:40 PM UTC
I actually like it. I'm not sure I'd consider it a great piece of art (or even an average one), and I've no idea if it deserves much money, but at least it's imaginative. I'm surprised so many of you find it offensive -- there isn't anything in there you wouldn't see in an average horror flick or on the cover of a rock album.
I was surprised by that comment, especially from a modeler. Most of the world probably thinks our hobby is a waste of time and makes no sense.
Quoted Text
Well, I think it's a waste of figures and time. Makes no sense.
I was surprised by that comment, especially from a modeler. Most of the world probably thinks our hobby is a waste of time and makes no sense.

rotATOR

Joined: November 16, 2006
KitMaker: 223 posts
Armorama: 167 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 01:43 AM UTC
arms for windshield wipers? a head for a hood ornament? I (sort of) understand that the creators were trying to give a sense of the horrors and atrocities committed by the Nazis,a Hell on earth type thing. I have no problem with a little gore in dios but this is over the top.

VolkerS

Joined: June 18, 2007
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 112 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 01:57 AM UTC
Hi,
Thanks to Aleksey for posting that link!
Indeed, I wouldn't do such thing in my lifetime, but hey, why worry about?
We are used to read (and write of course) cheers on all that stuff showing tanks and their crews sitting around and joking, laughing, playing cards etc.. War seems to be some kind of holiday-park. The linked "dio" is quite surreal, no doubt, but what are most of our dio's? Realistic? Hmm. And what with all that "what if"- stuff? King-Tigers in Afghanistan, Germans manning Alien-tanks.
As stated, I don't like that "dio", but I don't see any reason for "defending" our hobby against the creators of it, as some seem to do!
Keep cold blooded!!
Volker
Thanks to Aleksey for posting that link!
Indeed, I wouldn't do such thing in my lifetime, but hey, why worry about?
We are used to read (and write of course) cheers on all that stuff showing tanks and their crews sitting around and joking, laughing, playing cards etc.. War seems to be some kind of holiday-park. The linked "dio" is quite surreal, no doubt, but what are most of our dio's? Realistic? Hmm. And what with all that "what if"- stuff? King-Tigers in Afghanistan, Germans manning Alien-tanks.
As stated, I don't like that "dio", but I don't see any reason for "defending" our hobby against the creators of it, as some seem to do!
Keep cold blooded!!
Volker

MrMox

Joined: July 18, 2003
KitMaker: 3,377 posts
Armorama: 1,088 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 02:38 AM UTC
Kinda reminds me of the last scenes of "Apocalypse Now".

afv_rob

Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:46 AM UTC
This just made me laugh, kind of reminds me of some of the little scenes I used to make as a kid with my mates. Nothing as gruesome and horrific as this, but tons of dead 1/32 airfix figures covered in red paint and bits of blown up tanks I had picked up from carboot sales.
I find it hard to find this offensive simply because it just looks childish, I cant take it seriously, the painting is so bad! It looks like something out of Dante's inferno and were it not for the obvious attempt at being political it would make a fun sci fi diorama. The Mac d's is just priceless!
Pretty annoying that everyone probably bummed over these guys for bit saying how creative or something they are. Give me a couple of thousand and i'll produce something as 'creative' as this.
I do see some accuracy problems though-im sure the Germans didnt use mid Tigers on operation apocalypse.
I find it hard to find this offensive simply because it just looks childish, I cant take it seriously, the painting is so bad! It looks like something out of Dante's inferno and were it not for the obvious attempt at being political it would make a fun sci fi diorama. The Mac d's is just priceless!
Pretty annoying that everyone probably bummed over these guys for bit saying how creative or something they are. Give me a couple of thousand and i'll produce something as 'creative' as this.
I do see some accuracy problems though-im sure the Germans didnt use mid Tigers on operation apocalypse.


jimbrae

Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 04:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I quite like it. It's one person's interpretation of history. Art brings debate and tests the boundaries of human imagination and conceptions. This does it wonderfully.
Appreciate it it for what you will, and gain something from it.
This is as subtle and creative as the state-sponsored art of the Nazis or the U.S.S.R. . The only thing I 'gain' from it is a depression that these clowns get such coverage when decent, figurative artists don't...


VolkerS

Joined: June 18, 2007
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 112 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 06:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This is as subtle and creative as the state-sponsored art of the Nazis or the U.S.S.R. . The only thing I 'gain' from it is a depression that these clowns get such coverage when decent, figurative artists don't...![]()
Hi Jim,
with all the given (and no doubt: earned) respect, but isn't that calibre a little big to big for that target? (not talking about the very simplifying view of art in history in some aspects)
Obviously those guys hit some sensible spot that causes fierce reactions by some "serious dioramista". Therefore they did a good job.
Arent we the guys that have to defend themselves to the public because doing something "military" and claim to be "small scale artists"? That in mind, we should be more liberal (or at least ignore this stuff) regarding efforts like that...


Greets
Volker

NebLWeffah

Joined: October 13, 2004
KitMaker: 1,683 posts
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 06:37 AM UTC
Very good discussion everybody.
Okay, with all of these opinions - and I will say thay are all valid and require respect - let me pose this question.....
If you were the organizer of a model contest or show and this or something like this showed up at the door and the modeller wanted to enter it as subject to be judged in the diorama category, what would you do? How would or could this be judged?
hmmmm
Bob
Okay, with all of these opinions - and I will say thay are all valid and require respect - let me pose this question.....
If you were the organizer of a model contest or show and this or something like this showed up at the door and the modeller wanted to enter it as subject to be judged in the diorama category, what would you do? How would or could this be judged?

Bob

jba

Joined: November 04, 2005
KitMaker: 1,845 posts
Armorama: 777 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 06:41 AM UTC
What an Enjoyable discussion! Some answers I found pretty funny 
I personnally am doing just that, the whole diorama reminds me that the little panzers in kit we are playing with represent the toys of the most abject mass murdering era of the previous century

Quoted Text
Appreciate it it for what you will, and gain something from it.
I personnally am doing just that, the whole diorama reminds me that the little panzers in kit we are playing with represent the toys of the most abject mass murdering era of the previous century


jimbrae

Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 07:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If you were the organizer of a model contest or show and this or something like this showed up at the door and the modeller wanted to enter it as subject to be judged in the diorama category, what would you do? How would or could this be judged?
Within the 'Desperately Needs Therapy' category? No, many modelers have one or two cans short of a sixpack (in the best possible way

If it was there to shock or make an original point I could almost respect the 'creators' this, like all the rest of the crap is there to cause a completely nihilistic offence which, in turn, brings them in six-figure sums in commissions.
Hey! Good work if you can get it!


exer

Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 07:38 AM UTC
As my old latin teacher used to say "De gustibus non est disputandum"
This was never meant to be judged as a dio otherwise they would have entered it in Euromilitaire. The only reason we are discussing this is because the Chapman brothers used models to make their art. Personally I have no time time for their art. I find it distasteful, but there's a lot of other stuff out there that I like that others see as distasteful and pointless; Joseph Beuys, Ed Keinholz and Anselm Kiefer. Probably some people out there would be glad to see their work burn, that reminds me- who was that guy in history who like to burn what he called degenerate art? oh yeah - Hitler.
You don't like it don't look.
I do think the topic should be moved over to the spare parts forum.
This was never meant to be judged as a dio otherwise they would have entered it in Euromilitaire. The only reason we are discussing this is because the Chapman brothers used models to make their art. Personally I have no time time for their art. I find it distasteful, but there's a lot of other stuff out there that I like that others see as distasteful and pointless; Joseph Beuys, Ed Keinholz and Anselm Kiefer. Probably some people out there would be glad to see their work burn, that reminds me- who was that guy in history who like to burn what he called degenerate art? oh yeah - Hitler.
You don't like it don't look.
I do think the topic should be moved over to the spare parts forum.

squeeky1968

Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 315 posts
Armorama: 232 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 07:50 AM UTC
Im Sorry,but in my humble opinion this is just a big heap of poo.To then find that it was destroyed in a fire seems like divine intervention,the good lord`s way of having the final critique on this P.O.S.
To me,a fantastic realization of the hell of war comes in the diorama made for the Halo 3 video game (if someone can post a link to this,other members can see what a piece of "war art" should look like).This is just pretentious crap and a waste of good plastic,also perhaps the solicitors for McDonalds might want to take a look at it - AND SUE THE ASSES OFF `EM !!!
To me,a fantastic realization of the hell of war comes in the diorama made for the Halo 3 video game (if someone can post a link to this,other members can see what a piece of "war art" should look like).This is just pretentious crap and a waste of good plastic,also perhaps the solicitors for McDonalds might want to take a look at it - AND SUE THE ASSES OFF `EM !!!

okdoky

Joined: April 30, 2007
KitMaker: 1,597 posts
Armorama: 806 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 08:02 AM UTC
Hi there
As I have said on many an occasion, we modellers love to build replicas of the stuff of mass destruction and showing man's inhumanity to man!!!!!!!!!!
There is nothing on this massive dio that I haven't seen in some form or other (or close to it) either in a reference book or dvd of Zulu wars, WW1, WW2, Vietnam era, Falklands, Gulf, etc, in terms of blood and guts, mutilation and dismemberment. As for being seen by children, we tend not to think about the amount of history books that show some of the nasty parts of history.
How many of us as kids ourselves grew up with various Commando comics and the like portraying death and destruction in all its so called glory, then subscribed to WW2 magazine for reference material on the model builds. How many kids still pass through the Edinburgh dungeons or Madamme Tousou and laugh at the head chopping executioners, etc. All part of the colourful history of life,,,,,,,,,,,,, and death.
Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well as I cannot say I am a judge of art, I would not care to say, but those paintings that are on previous submissions here are quite surreal and I am sure many a work of art or history book has been burned for the very same reason that some are suggesting here.
Do we burn books by Shakespear because they suggest that Kings should be put to the knife. And I remember someone on here saying that they had modelled Lady Macbeth covered in blood. A model, or a piece of Art? I am sure with out doubt that it would be classed as a work of Art with a quality of finish to prove it!
Let's not be party to burning things just because we choose not to like the message that someone is trying to send in their work
Nige
As I have said on many an occasion, we modellers love to build replicas of the stuff of mass destruction and showing man's inhumanity to man!!!!!!!!!!
There is nothing on this massive dio that I haven't seen in some form or other (or close to it) either in a reference book or dvd of Zulu wars, WW1, WW2, Vietnam era, Falklands, Gulf, etc, in terms of blood and guts, mutilation and dismemberment. As for being seen by children, we tend not to think about the amount of history books that show some of the nasty parts of history.
How many of us as kids ourselves grew up with various Commando comics and the like portraying death and destruction in all its so called glory, then subscribed to WW2 magazine for reference material on the model builds. How many kids still pass through the Edinburgh dungeons or Madamme Tousou and laugh at the head chopping executioners, etc. All part of the colourful history of life,,,,,,,,,,,,, and death.
Art,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well as I cannot say I am a judge of art, I would not care to say, but those paintings that are on previous submissions here are quite surreal and I am sure many a work of art or history book has been burned for the very same reason that some are suggesting here.
Do we burn books by Shakespear because they suggest that Kings should be put to the knife. And I remember someone on here saying that they had modelled Lady Macbeth covered in blood. A model, or a piece of Art? I am sure with out doubt that it would be classed as a work of Art with a quality of finish to prove it!


Nige

parrot

Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,607 posts
Armorama: 1,581 posts

Posted: Monday, May 26, 2008 - 10:16 AM UTC
A piece of crap that took a sick mind a lot of time.

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