Seems like a waste of good models and resources on a large scale.
I prefer the surrealism found in JBA's dioramas.
Cheers,
Charles

Some of what has been said here got me thinking about possible dioramas we might have posted here or placed into competition, how would we react to a diorama of various acts committed in the concentration camps during the Boar war or WW2? Would the gore or human misery be acceptable because it was historically accurate? Would it be viewed as a thought provoking model or art piece? I myself have a lot of negative thoughts towards the so called art that started this thread because it is designed to offend in my opinion, but if something along the lines of the above atrocities was posted I just don’t know how I would receive it.

I think saying that this person was "sick" or "mentally disturbed" gives them too much credit. To me it looks like someone trying to make some kind of provocative controversial artwork but instead all they got for their effort was a scene reminiscent of an over the top horror movie (human arms for windshield wipers reminds me of something you'd find in the over-the-top final 20 minutes of the movie "From Dusk Till Dawn"). To be completely honest I find this diorama less disturbing and more ridiculous.

Art can be something as simple as creating a given work for entertainment (using beauty or not) or it can be creating a given work to represent an emotion or to imbue some type of message in a given media (or even both). The individual who created this work seems to be trying to fool the viewer into thinking there is some powerful message or emotion to convey, but in reality all the blood and guts isn't enough to hide the abcense of meaning, and we're left with nothing more than pointless horror-show. I mean c'mon really Zombie-like people, Nazis, and a McDonalds!?!

Either that or this person was trying to make a diorama work with zombies and McDonalds but when they went to the store to buy figures all the could find were various military-type figures from World War II Nazi Germany so they decided to toss them in the mix as well. After all a couple of Nazis will always be at home in a horror-show scene right?:D *sarcasm*

IPMS/USA rule 5 would come into play.

"The Chief Judge will exclude or remove from competition any entry considered by Contest officials to be inappropriate or offensive to generally acknowledged standards of taste and acceptability.


The following are prohibited in competition and may not be placed on display at any IPMS event:


There shall be no depiction of excretory functions depicting any human being or animal.


There shall be no depiction of sado-masochistic activity, equipment, settings, or situations, to any degree, regardless of whether there are figures in the model and regardless of whether any figures present in the model are clothed.


There shall be no depictions of explicit sexual conduct, bilateral or autoerotic, regardless of degree and regardless of the clothing status of the participants, that involves the touching of the breasts or genitals or other erogenous zones of any depicted figure.


There shall be no depiction of any nude human male or female figures where the genitalia of the figure are exposed, where the clear intent of the same is to portray a sexual scene.


The following may be entered in the competition or put on display but can be presented only behind opaque screens or similar visual barriers and only where visitors are provided with a fair description, in written format, of the contents of the models behind the screen. This screened presentation covers competitors and the general public, but no person younger than 18 will be admitted except in the presence of an adult responsible for the young person, subject to the provisions of governing local law:


Depictions of any nude human male or female figure, subject to the “screening system” described above.


Models or dioramas of historic events (e.g., general dioramas or specific depictions of the result of the activities of the communist Cambodian Pol Pot regime, a Soviet Gulag, or a Nazi death camp) where the suffering of human beings, or the result of a pogrom, is depicted. Where the theme, content, or subject matter of presentations is graphic or would violate any provision of part A of this policy, the presentation is prohibited in any setting"

i still don't get it... Nazism is equated with Mcdonalds? i patronize big mac, does that mean i'm a nazi because i eat beef? are these "artists" hard core veggies or something? if there are any vegetarians here my apologies, but as i said, i still don't get it.

Very well said..........That dio is simply disgusting crap....Absolutely pointless.

I think those of you advocating the burning of artistic endeavours which displease you would do well to remember the last lot who held that view were beaten in the second world war.
What happened to freedom of speach? Freedom of expression? We are all artists here, in our own way, what we do aint so different...
hell re-made

No-one has advocated burning anything - this 'work' was destroyed in a large (accidental) fire. Nor, have I seen any call for clowns like this to be banned. Precisely the point that the more vocal members of this imbecile movement - Hirst, Emin or Wallinger are making, they can inflict any half-baked rubbish (and alienate large swathes of the public in the process) by using PUBLIC money. It's childishly politcal, it's designed to get attention by shocking - it doesn't attempt to make any coherent point, the effect is in the shock. As I said before, the bigger the schlock factor, the bigger the money which is paid for their 'installations'.

Nor are these idiots the 'heirs' of painters like Picasso, Bosch, Rodin or Turner. The difference between the controversy of THEM in their time is no-one denied they could paint or sculpt. Gradually, over time, they became accepted, this lot are producing little more than ephemeral garbage created for the benefit of a self-serving elite of their toadies and their already bulging bank accounts.

What shocked people about the Nazis and Stalin's Russia, was the mundane nature of the evil. It doesn't need sculpting of arms as windshield wipers to shock - the documentation is there for everyone to see. The indifference of an entire population to what was being done in their name is far more terrifying than a few 'schlock' images.

Here's a frightening photo. This photograph was part of an article whicj appeared in my local newspaper over the weekend. This elderly gentleman gave an interview, in which he talked of the year he spent as a guard in Aushwitz - as a volunteer from Franco's División Azul - not as a conscript.

What's more frightening, the ordinariness of evil or the more graphic manifestation?

i love it how everyone is just 'burning' him..
i agree with everyone here that has something bad to say about it...

what a waste of time and money..
also, i dont think it shows the "gruesomeness'' of the war, because there was no four legged demons LOL

haha lol

By the way...

I think this dio is horrible, but AJ has done the right comparison (will it be a coincidence that both these works of art are visible at Madrid)?
I would comment it like this
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/munch/munch.scream2.jpg

you know, if we found a surrwalist site there is a possibility all of them could be slating a dio of a tiger being repaired.
its no different to saying to your kid. no i dont like your drawing as the sky stops half way down the page, the hands look like sunfloweres. e.t.c...
to even start a projesct like this, the scale of it is a task onto its self. and waste of money or not it has done what it was supposed to

James out.

From Iain: "Actually it's not all bad news as I've just discovered the piece was destroyed in a warehouse fire in 2004 along with another 100 or so pieces of 'art'... "

From Dave N: "Thank GOD for the fire!!! This steaming pile of hemp rope is right where it needs to be, in the city's landfill"

From Danny Greenway: "Im Sorry,but in my humble opinion this is just a big heap of poo.To then find that it was destroyed in a fire seems like divine intervention,the good lord`s way of having the final critique on this P.O.S"

Jim, what are these comments if not advocation of censorship by burning?
Normally your comments on this site are the voice of reason but I must say I'm finding your art bashing very narrow minded.
Please let's not get tangled up in this "is it art?" debate, and end up making enemies of each other, but stick to what we on this site for - modelling...

Richard

i wonder how much therapy, they needed, when is it begining. i understand the point of freedom of expression, but that was very dark and twisted. makes you wonder about people ! oh well ......

Well... In my humble opinion , I think this dio is brilliant. These two guys certainly thought outside the box when building their version of hell.
What I don't understand is the narrow-minded answers being written. Everybody here loves building the weapons of war, just not seeing the results of the misery and destruction. Sure it's very surrealistic, but to me , the whole idea of heaven and hell is surrealistic. I'm sorry if this offends the religious modellers, but it is my opinion.

I can think of a couple of other cultures that thought art and free thought should be censured/illegal. All the people who posted negative reactions to this dio (of which I think is extremely cool) are totally entitled to their opinion, but they should be glad and thankful that they can get on their computers and look up something like this dio and then be able to actually post their negative opinions/reactions and not have to fear the repurcussions that would have befelled them should those cultures had been triumpant.

Z.

You're assuming this is the product of free thought? It's got more to do with Adam Smith than Goya..

Please, can we leave the philosophy 1.01 outside?

All art is " christened " art only after the artist reveals his work and names it so.
All art is praised or denounced by the public after it's shown by the artist.

Personally .......... I never understood Andy Warhols can of Cambells soup as being a masterpiece and being worth a fortune.
It's like the fable, story - whatever of " The Kings New Clothes ". If you want to be part of a clique you'd better agree with us !!!

I like his - their interpretation of hell. I'm twisted and can accept their work. I do not however get the McDonalds tie in. I also wouldn't go as far as calling it a masterpiece, or pay to see it .
It's also sad to see who here has their derogatory opinions and that theirs is the only opinion that matters and these artists [ ? ] should be commited, l.o.l. If you felt so strongly against a war would you join a group to blow up government buildings and possibly kill people in the process to get your point across ???

Good publicity or bad it's still just publicity. Which is what they want and makes them money and fame. If you feel that way about their work don't subscribe to it in any way and it will surely go away.

2 cents worth of nothing.
Glenn

This does nothing for me in terms of expressing, artistically or otherwise, any views on the war or the holocaust. I studied art for a while and found some things to be moving, some to be engrossing and disturbing (Glad to see Bosch being brought up) and also a blend of great technical skill and dark imagination (Giger for example). I dont believe that many holocaust-esque bodies, a bit of "blood" red paint and cases in a swosstika are vehicle enough to convey the human suffering of World War 2, especially not on scenery that looks like it was lifted from a Games Workshop store. Come to think of it, this thing reminds me of scenery I used to make for Chaos Space Marines.

My opinion of what I've just seen is that this is neither a well executed model or a well devised piece of "art". I found myself slightly creeped out that someone had made it, but found out later it was a team effort which only reinforced the empty feeling of seeking shock value. The mcdonald's reference just sealed the deal. If I had paid to enter a gallery and came across that, I would move on to other pieces, it does nothing for me. As for it deserving to burn.. .well that's a bit harsh, clearly there's a lot of work gone into it, as much as I believe it was misplaced work.

Out of interest...

Art
–noun 1. the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
2. the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection.
3. a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art.
4. the fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture.
5. any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art.
6. (in printed matter) illustrative or decorative material: Is there any art with the copy for this story?
7. the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.
8. the craft or trade using these principles or methods.
9. skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation.
10. a branch of learning or university study, esp. one of the fine arts or the humanities, as music, philosophy, or literature.
11. arts, a. (used with a singular verb) the humanities: a college of arts and sciences.
b. (used with a plural verb) liberal arts.

12. skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
13. trickery; cunning: glib and devious art.
14. studied action; artificiality in behavior.
15. an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics.
16. Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.

Yeah that's right, I have another 2 cents. I wasn't trying for a philosophical debate. What I was merely pointing out is that we who try to bring our thoughts out in modelling and maybe even help preserve some of the history shouldn't condemn others for their interpretations. I have a friend whos wife is Jewsih and will not let him put swastikas on any German WWII vehicle or dio he makes, which I can understand but what would happen if we were told we could only build Allied subjects b/c they were the righteous forces in the war? Secondly, has anyone thought of what the McDonalds in the dio is supposed to maybe represent. I'm a big horror movie guy and once watched a George Romero interview (he did the Night of the Living Dead series and pretty much created the zombie genre as we know it). When asked why the dead consume the living in his movies he stated it was b/c that was what he saw our society as. We consume for the sake of consuming notr b/c we actually need to. It's like having a stash of more than 100 kits, you buy them b/c you just want them although you'll probably never build them. Our society is driven by greed and excess, plain and simple. I'm not innocent either, I do the same. It's almost as though our DNA evolved with this trait imprinted in it. I don't know, all I'm saying is that Mickey D's could have been a Wal Mart, or a gas station it doesn't matter they represent the same thing. Sorry this is off topic, but I hate it when people are like, "this should be burned and/or kept out of the public light." Everything offends everyone now a days, I'm just getting tired of it. I'm sure this will be accompanied on the web site with a note from the webmaster so if you wish to debate me on this further just pm me.

Z. or should it be?

I think that this "representation of the scale and brutality of the suffering " appears to have been done by persons basing their art on imagination rather than personal experience or sound historical research. The true "brutality of the suffering" of war does not require embellishment. It is plenty horrific in its own right.

One of the most horrible experiences I ever had was holding a young teenaged Vietnamese girl in my arms while she died. She had been gut-shot by her boyfriend. There was no blood. She didn't utter a sound. She just slowly and quietly slipped away while I tried to get her to the hospital.

"This is the way the world ends...not with a bang, but a wimper."
The Hollow Men
T. S. Eliot


Semper Fi,
Dave

I have said many, many times before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times in the future: I appreciate the effort that modellers put into their projects, and I always try to see the best. I can't paint faces on a 1/35th scale figure as well as some other modellers, and I would hope they wouldn't deride my work. I think we all derive a satisfaction seeing something that we have built, and take a certain amount of pride in our abilities. Let's face it: we do things a lot of people can't.
Having said that...this diorama is garbage. Sorry, it may have taken a lot of time and money....but I cannot see anything "artistic" about it.

Mike Zona , thanks for your perspective on the McD thing. Now it makes more sense - not that it makes the build any better, l.o.l.

The true way to debase this thing if it were still around would be to go someplace where it was being shown with some friends and just laugh at it - very loudly.
I still think condemnation is a little too strong [ publicity good or bad will only inlarge their egos and fill their pockets ] - maybe meeting the modelers, introducing youself , then laughing out loud and telling him that's the funniest thing you've ever seen would get their goat. There's nothing worse to a self proclaimed artist [ especially a bleeding liberal type ] than to " not get it ". Like I said, I like it as a sci-fi type of thing. Some of the scenes are quite that , but as it's interpretation and what we're supposed to get from it that was ment by the builders ............nah.
Glenn

I think the moral of the scene is is that the soldiers who committed atrocities during the war are forced into Hell to eat Big Macs or Hamburger Royals (for our European friends).
Certainly not Picasso's "Guernica" but who can say what art is? Andy Warhol urinated on a canvas and called it art....some idiot probably bought it.
It's ironic that a diorama about Hell went up in flames!?

Jeff

i hope you know its still big mac's over here,....