and the point is?

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but the picture of the McDonald's model is actually a separate piece of artwork ("Arbeit McFries, 2001") to the one entitled "Hell", which was destroyed in the fire at MoMart's East London warehouse in May 2004. (Not trying to take anything away from the above points about McDonalds, just giving the facts)
I saw the work ("Hell") in the Acopalypse exhibition at the Royal Academy in London in 2000; I thought the work was well conceived as a whole piece, and in terms of modelling skills, it was a bit hit and miss. A whole gallery room, dramatically lit, and with nine huge cases was really bombastic to see, but within a short space of time, your senses were saturated with the grotesque sights before you, and you moved on to the next piece of work.
I didn't like it as an artwork and I'm not keen on what the Chapmans do, generally, but I understand some of their ideas and concepts. Remember, it's ok not to like a work of art...
For those who might be interested in actually seeing some of the Chapmans' work, their re-make of "Hell" - called "Fu**ing Hell" is about to be shown in London.
F'ing hell
Maybe you should see it if you get the chance, then comment... but maybe not on this forum...

Well.....definately bizarre and macabre. It's not something I would make but I can appreciate the concept of this being a different interpretation of hell. I have enjoyed reading the debate although I feel some have gotten a little too wrapped around the axles over this thing. It is what it is. I know it would never be a "feature' here on the big A and deservedly so......that "diorama", piece of "art", is not about modelling in any way.

OMG My mouth hit the floor when i saw this one - very disturbing.

Stuart

What theh#%i is that

Oh no, absolutely not my piece of cake ! G.

I actually enjoyed this thread so far,
I found it rather refreshing, and reminded me of those old college days, and the long winded discussions and arguments in a certain art history class called "What is Art?". After our mandatory weekly field trips to the Guggenhiem, Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) and loads of art galleries in NYC, the class was spent discussing what we saw, what we liked- and why, and what we didn't like and why, and frankly some of the discussions turned into almost fist to cuffs.

Back in those days I learned several important things about art. One was I didn't have to like everything on display. Another was just because it was on display didn't mean it was good. (especially in galleries- and yes even back in those days of long hair and real teeth, there was shock art, so it's really nothing new or innovated, and rather blasé!)
But more importantly: just because it wasn't good and I didn't like it, didn't mean they didn't have the right to display it, but I always had the right to pass it by.

This would be one I would simply pass by.

Sums up my attitude to art and this piece too, Dave

I think the piece did what art is supposed to do- make you feel and/or think something. I have read and studied enough about war in the thirty some years the topic became an interest to me to know nothing depicted in those images hasn't played out somewhere at some time. Be it with Atilla the Hun or Ghengis Khan sweeping across the country, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the jungles of Viet-Nam, the islands of WWII Pacific Theater operations, the Soviet Gulags, or the concentration camps of the Nazi State. I agree that the only thing the diorama actually has in common with this site is the use of military vehicle models and figures;,obviously the intent is far beyond that. But, having heard the sympathetic groans, awlward silences, and blank looks and the rolling of eyes when people learn I am a mid fiftyish adult, college educated man who builds plastic models I am never too eager to dismiss what comes out of someones head, heart, and hands. Granted, I may not understand or like what I see, but I can't relish in the destruction of another's work or the wholesale dismissal of someone else's vision. I especially can't find it in myself to feel I have the one true worldview and pure insight and vision to decide because I disapprove of something no-body else has a right to form or hold a contrary opinion. I believe it's that judgemental line of reasoning that creates the need for the machiery of destruction whose miniaturized replicas we all so dearly love to build.

I have to say that I was more entertained and somewhat amused by some of the responses posted here, LOL!
Having said that, I see this as the type of "Art" that deliberately crosses a line in order to simply provoke a reaction, and , sadly, to the creator, that is reward enough. It is as if the mere act of getting a rise out of the viewer is payment enough, regardless of whether that reaction is utter bliss, or outright disgust.
To me, that's a relatively easy thing to accomplish, to be honest, and not much brag about. It is very close to the kinds of movies today where the amount of gore and graphic violent imagery is SO off-the-charts that it taints and ruins the whole movie. Some people don't seem to realize that sometimes the most effective way to frighten, to abhor, to disturb, is to leave the final image in the mind and imagination of the viewer.
To that end, I loosely agree with the person who called this "smut"--Distorted diabolical creatures, and piles of bloody, broken bodies along with concentration camp imagery, crucifixion scenes, WWII Tigers, Nazi's, and McDonald's?! I mean--why not throw in dead puppies and slaughtered schoolchildren as well?
From a purely artistic and compositional scene, it is the equivalent of what a psychiatrist would call "word salad"--a little bit of everything, and none of it making any sense.
Here's a thought--I wonder if the "fire" was a retributive act against the creators, or something deliberately planned to give some sort of mythological "end-story" to its demise?
BWAAAH HA HAAAAA!!!!

I didn't reread all this so this may be old info by now. I learned the diorama in this post had been sold for half a million pounds before it burned. The brothers that created it drove by the burning warehouse and "had a laugh" over the irony of it. Apparently lots of other pieces of art by other artists were lost in the same blaze.

They have completed another similar work called Hell MkII or something. It depicts Nazi soldiers doing bad stuff to each other in a concentration camp setting. It has numerous appearances of Hitler throughout, the McDonald's sign, and Steven Hawking as well. It is sold to some collector for 750 million pounds. The report I saw was dated June 1 so it is fairly recent.

Here's the link to a news report about it and an interview video with the brothers.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/arts_entertainment/art/chapmans+exhibition+from+hell/2264767

What I found really weird was that they purchased some paintings actually done by Hitler and colored rainbows in the backgrounds of them. For some reason this substantially increased the asking price for them. While I have no admiration for Hitler and especially none for his painting ability it sort of bothers me from a historical perspective to destroy the original condition of the paintings by him. It's hard to explain it, but it just seems wrong.

Well,

I like it. There has opbviosly been a lot of thinking and planning gone into this, as well as even more work in the design, layout and construction. Would any of you be able to build all of those figures, or terrain work for one dio without getting bored? Throwing it away? Changing your pans? Losing interest?

Who cares if you dont like it, or it's not to your personal modelling interest. It obviously is to someone else, so don;t bag them, and they have everyright to have this link/pics/blog posted here. It fits the site.

Just bc you dont liek it or its different, doesnt mean its wrong or bad. Open your minds.

one man didnt make it, it was a team effort

but just because it is big and contains reference to nazism, holocaust etc. doesnt mean it should be in an art gallery either

Seven and a half million pounds not 750 million- no one is that crazy.

Interviewer; "Why have you put Steven Hawking there ?(Hell)"

Chapmans: "Why not"

I have to say -it's growing on me and I like what they've done to Hitler's paintings.

1, 5 or 10 or any number of people, makes no difference.

The point is this.

This is someone or someones model/diorama, that they have obviously worked hard on, and built for wat ever reason/s.

Why do we you/we have to criticise this, and try and have it barred from here, and also slag what it may ir may not depict.

If I feel the same about Panther tanks, the way some of you feel about this, is that any different?

I am currently building a dio with an LCM3, based on nowhere in perticular, and after a landing. It's called "Resupply" and depicting a few days afyer an intial landing/invasion.

My initial plans were to have dead bodies, ammo, bags, guns etc, half floating in the water, half buried in the sand etc etc.

The only reasons why I didnt do this aspect of the model wa sbecause I also wanted to try and depict some really nice, crystal blue pacific style water, and as a result, these details would never be seen.

But I will do another dio like this, because it is a fact of war, and it did happen. But you may not like it, but to me, who cares what you think, because I, like these guys, have either built this, model/dio for either myself, or someone else, to portray a perticular story or what ever.

This is a hobby, and really, we should all be in it for ourselves first and mainly, and then wat ever avenues from there. I.E a collector, a museum, an art display.

We should not be here to judge others in this ever shrinking hobby, but to encourage and support ourselves and others.

If you don't like it, fine, no big deal, but don;t bag it, or the creators, and don't try and have it banned.

1. its a discussion
2.chill out
3.everyone has a right to opinion, even dare i say it you. has it been banned NO so i dont see why you are moaning.
4. i am still indecided about this piece, like it or not its here and its "art"
5.everyone judges whether they intend to or not. human nature is partially driven by juging others.(among other things)
5. and with the pacific dio why bring it up, bodies floating has nothing to do with this, i man reality of war and all that yes, but this aint war reality, is it. well i hope not. floating bodies is not really going to be sencored. nor is this.


nobody is bagging anyone. i cant see anyone saying, Hey james, you suck because your opinion about this peice is different to mine, its not a story. its not historically accurate, but its people who think that people are bagging(what the heck is bagging, the closest i can think of is t-bagging) it when they arent are out of there depth
Picard out

Oh, for God's sake, can someone move, lock or otherwise forget about this damned thread?

Pity more interesting items were given the same attention as this was. It isn't a diorama (well, it wasn't planned as such) it's an 'Artistic' statement (clutches own throat) ..

i second that jim

This thread has a life of its own for sure.........but it has been entertaining!

Yep. Got the price wrong. Caffeine Overdrive that particular day. Yep. Too many beans, not enough water. Mind thinking many parallel thoughts. Information difficult to sequence. Forgot to edit corrections. Tornado on Tuesday, garage flooded with 2 feet of water Saturday. Almost lost everything I own. Should have handled this first before being distracted by other trivialities. Criticism accepted. Will superglue my middle and index fingers together for reparations and not use rest room for 6 hours. Please acknowledge disciplanary actions sufficient for careless error.

And yes, people with a lot of money can be very stupid. Stupid Money is an expression that is used to describe people who bought homes in the Hamptons and surrounding areas of Long Island NY. Usage: "You need stupid money to buy that house!" Translation: Asking or offered price is way more than it's worth. Way more.

Hand Out!

Ok so now you want locked the thread after you had your time more than once to have your say.That is just like the things that people have said included you.It is not attractive to me so let's don't consider it just like the diorama.You should be lucky that you are in a place where you can have your say,and call people idiots,and complain about what is art.I for myself worry about ones who want to decide what is art and what is not.Maybe you don't know what it is to know these things.And you are an editor also.This makes me think of anything you say with less attention.

If this discussion keeps going we all will maybe appreciate that modelling is not all black and white,,,,,,,,,,, good or bad,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, mine is better than yours style!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would have been good to see some more photos of the dio ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, arty sort of thing to get more of a feel for some of the theme or consepts that have ran through it! Those that got to see all of the dio will have their own ideas as to what meaning they got from it all!

I am surprised that in an era of political and territorial turmoil that is going on in many parts of the world, and with the advent of beat-em-up PS2 games like Grand Theft Auto, Haze and the like, I get the feeling that there is more of a chance that younger generations would think nothing of the horror or gratuitous use of blood and gore that seems to offend some on here.

I also feel that with education being as bad in some parts of the US and UK, some of the historical relevance and ireverance to the political turmoil, Holicaust references and significance of Nazis symbols might be lost on some of the younger (play station) generation.

Is it not a bad thing to bring such horrors to the fore in whatever form?

LEST WE FORGET !!!!!!!!

MAN's inhumanity to man still goes on ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JMHO after all

Nige