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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Hybrid pz VI ausf B "Kampfgruppe Berlin"
spitfire303
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Vendee, France
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 10:37 AM UTC
Guess who

While preparing myself for the tough job of creating a base for the "Bohemian End" I started work on a new project.

The idea of a hybrid Tiger II came from the history of the 5 Hybrid Tigers I from the Kampfgruppe Fehrmann. This is my pure imagination (like the unit: Kampfgruppe Berlin ) so don't look here for any historical accuracy.

Just imagine: the last days of war and a need to put on the front anything that could move and fire. An old hull which was brought back from let's say Normandy (for example FKL 316) is re-equipped with one of few turrets ready in advance. Few ad hoc modifications to the hull and here we have a fighting vehicle who will defend the capital of the falling Reich in a new created unit Kampfgruppe Berlin.

The vehicle I'll try to build will feature a number of "early" features which concerned first tigers II delivered mixed with some late details.

the frame:
zimmerited hull
latest turret
+ mix of various early and late details

the base for this build is... what is left of my first KT build (formerly known as
King Tiger / Wegmann 21 march 1945



I just decided to keep my other 5 Tiger II kits safe in the stash (for the hard times )

after few days of work I took off all the paint (together with some parts...)

the turret is ready to be primed



the hull will need "some" care



a zimmerit in tube will come handy to cover all those holes

Yours Oberleutnant spitfire
H_Ackermans
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Gelderland, Netherlands
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 12:44 PM UTC
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one, a hybrid Tiger-B.

And just to give credibilty, there's ample evidence of very early features on some very late Tiger-B's.

I'm really curious to find out what you're going to make!
SSJugend
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 03:20 PM UTC
Very intresting..ill be keeping my eye on it as well.........

Russ
Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 11:39 PM UTC
Oh Yes,

Spit, what would I do without you? I love your threads and this looks like it will be really interesting. I've always liked the idea of the kampfgruppe Fehrmann, and so applying this thinking to a Tiger B will be particularly interesting!

Looking forward to seeing this come along.

Good Luck,

James
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh Yes,

Spit, what would I do without you? I love your threads and this looks like it will be really interesting. I've always liked the idea of the kampfgruppe Fehrmann, and so applying this thinking to a Tiger B will be particularly interesting!

Looking forward to seeing this come along.

Good Luck,

James



Kampfgruppe Fehrmann isn't as interesting as it looks at first.

What was done there, was that their early Tiger-Es were re-fitted with steel rimmed wheels.

It's not a late chassis with an early/mid turret, as most think.

Now, if we were talking Hybrid Panthers..............................
bizzychicken
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 05:29 AM UTC
Got my atention. Love anything to do with the last days off the Battle for Berlin Also anything to do with Pz Div Muncheberg and Nordland Div maybe Kampfgruppe Berlin could be made up of remnants of one of those Div's. This hybrid could end up with a very intresting camo finish, maybe a differant turret paint job to its hull. Dunkelgelb was in short supply and Olivgrun was used more. Nice to see the rest of the usual suspects watching, looking forward to a fun thread LOL Geraint Hybrid Panthers, Herbert apard from the F turret on the G hull do you know of any Panther H's
spitfire303
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:49 AM UTC
Gutten acht Soldaten

I see here some faces I already know

I decided to start by adding zimmerit to the model....

lower front glacis



Anybody has a pic of a Tiger B with the zimmerit completely fallen off???!!!! It takes so much time...

I have looked my photo album and found some pictures of damaged zimmerit, but if you have some (not necessarily a Tiger B) nice views I would like you post them or PM me.

Thanks for watching

spit
H_Ackermans
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Gelderland, Netherlands
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:54 AM UTC
Not wanting to hijack a thread, but hybrid Panthers are Ausf. G hulls with Ausf. D turrets:

SIRNEIL
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Posted: Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 11:11 AM UTC
hi pawel

will you be useing the 100W light bulb again............
great build log as usual maybe i will try one again in the not to distant future
good luck...
neil
spitfire303
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Kampfgruppe Fehrmann isn't as interesting as it looks at first.

What was done there, was that their early Tiger-Es were re-fitted with steel rimmed wheels.

It's not a late chassis with an early/mid turret, as most think.

Now, if we were talking Hybrid Panthers..............................



Are you sure? On pictures we clearly see the zimmerit on turrets and hulls?



Quoted Text

Not wanting to hijack a thread, but hybrid Panthers are Ausf. G hulls with Ausf. D turrets:




Just send it to dragon and make your guess on the next CH kit






Quoted Text

hi pawel

will you be useing the 100W light bulb again............



VERY FUNNY NEIL

spit
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:38 AM UTC
I got that from David Byrden.

And EARLY, well, just earlier than, at least, the Tigers were not late ones, let's keep it at that.

wing_nut
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:01 AM UTC
I haven't been building armor for very long. I am at the point where I can tell the Pz I, II, III, IV and so on, apart. But it will be a while longer before I will be able to tell an Ausf A form a B and down the line. Still I will be watching this one to see if I noticed the differences. I will look at the picture before I read. Hmmm... sounds like another magazine i have "read".
bizzychicken
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:58 AM UTC
Spit have you seen Phils Tiger 1 turret zim mod thread ( Barkman 424) well worth a look. he really knows how to Zim using putty. Maybe the Bear will have some pics of tigers with zim fallen off. Great photo Herbert of that Panther G/D gives this tiger more credibility, seeing that the Germans did use old/new turrets with new/old bodies. Wonder if many non Zim turrets/hulls were married to zim'd turrets/ hulls. That would look great, seeing two,
differant surfaces on one tank and possibilly two differant camo patterns. very unique. how much info is out there for these Hybrids? A whole new world is opening up. GREAT!
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:52 AM UTC
I'm starting a new thread for the Hybrid Panzers so this thread stays on topic.
tjkelly
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:54 AM UTC
Interesting thread Pawel, will be watching this one! Thanks for sharing -

Cheers, Tim
bizzychicken
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Posted: Friday, January 16, 2009 - 04:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm starting a new thread for the Hybrid Panzers so this thread stays on topic.

sorry Spit wasn't trying to go off topic, just this Hybrid world is very intresting. Great Herbert I will be watching both. catch you all later
spitfire303
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Vendee, France
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 08:28 AM UTC
Hi,

the zimmerit application phase is finished. I used the milliput white superfine. Don't know if it looks ok but it will sure look better when painted (I know it from autopsy ). I tried to makes a considerable amount of damage to the zimmerit surface. Having in mind my last experience with painting the unzimmerited areas it will give a possibility to discuss things a little bit

I think the model looks ugly now but just give it a chance





spit
barkmann424
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:38 AM UTC
Hi Pawel, you are doing yourself an injustice! That will look great when painted up with the rot primer showing through, or would it be zinc based or something by then? I really like the break up of the zimmerit on the bow/glacis, sometimes the 'matrix' of the pattern would indeed fall off this way. Busy with mini power tools at the moment 'ironicly' removing moulded zimmert!

Lookin' good! Regards Phil.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:11 AM UTC
Always Rot Oxid, Germans don't use Zinc Chromate.

Anyway, hmmm, I'm getting a bit of an image of something that really never ever could have happened, Pawel, a zimmerited hull with a March '45 turret.

Why that is, is in my humble opinion, the number of produced Tiger-Bs is too limited to include "toying around" with those components. Further, not a lot of Tiger-Bs were even recovered after being hit due to insufficient recovery vehicles capable of pulling a 68 ton Tiger-B around. Remember 3 Famo's for one Tiger-E, and that is a 56 ton tank. Add 12 tons, and you need a fourth Famo to haul it.

And yes, I know the story of 332 being hauled to the trainstation, but that is a slightly different situation than trying to get a tank out of a combat situation. Plus, the tide of the war had shifted for the Germans in such a fashion, it wasn't even worth trying anymore.

I'm all for adding early fittings to a late/final Tiger-B, that actually happened and lots of variation occured with the last batches of Tigers produced.
spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:55 AM UTC
It's a really nice built; but for the those of us, who are ignorant in their ways: what makes this tiger a composite? What are the details I should look out for? All I see is a very nice KT -if I met him in a bar I would not raise an eyebrow. (OK, I probably would. But not because it's fictional.)
Thanks
spitfire303
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 12:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Pawel, you are doing yourself an injustice! That will look great when painted up with the rot primer showing through, or would it be zinc based or something by then? I really like the break up of the zimmerit on the bow/glacis, sometimes the 'matrix' of the pattern would indeed fall off this way. Busy with mini power tools at the moment 'ironicly' removing moulded zimmert!

Lookin' good! Regards Phil.



Hey Phil, thanks man. Be careful with the power tool on the moulded zimm. It's possible to get some good results. I have achieved a nice effect once... just avoid putting yout tiger beside a lamp with a 100W bulb (I konw something about this )




Quoted Text

Anyway, hmmm, I'm getting a bit of an image of something that really never ever could have happened, Pawel, a zimmerited hull with a March '45 turret.

Why that is, is in my humble opinion, the number of produced Tiger-Bs is too limited to include "toying around" with those components. Further, not a lot of Tiger-Bs were even recovered after being hit due to insufficient recovery vehicles capable of pulling a 68 ton Tiger-B around. Remember 3 Famo's for one Tiger-E, and that is a 56 ton tank. Add 12 tons, and you need a fourth Famo to haul it.



Yes Herbert, I'm with you on this one. We both have some knowledge about those things here so I know this one is all but real. That's why I wrote on the very beginning of the thread:


Quoted Text

This is my pure imagination (like the unit: Kampfgruppe Berlin ) so don't look here for any historical accuracy.



I think it's appropriate to say today: "I had a dream"

Btw Herbert. I think you wrote in another thread that a Tiger B with early turret was found with the late single track links? Any more info about it?


Quoted Text

It's a really nice built; but for the those of us, who are ignorant in their ways: what makes this tiger a composite? What are the details I should look out for? All I see is a very nice KT -if I met him in a bar I would not raise an eyebrow. (OK, I probably would. But not because it's fictional.)
Thanks



Andras, thank you ofr your comments. for now not a lot of details are visible as you can see the kitty is not in a good shape. What can we already see? Here we go:

- a very late turret, finished at the end of march '45, only few Tigers B were equipped of it (we can't be really sure hwo many). I have pictures of only one vehicle. If you want to learn something more about those late features in general (late turret in the case of this build) I would advise you to take a look on a Tiger B I finished some time ago https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/115812&page=1

there will be some other late features but I'll speak about it when it will be build.

For the "early" or "mid" components for now you have zimmerited hull (zimmerit was put out of use in september '44) + a cut in the hull behind MG mount has been filled. One of the features of some of the very first Tigers II delivered (for example to the FKL 316) didn't have the cut just in front of the radio operator visor. The pictures will explain everything





Some other early features will follow and I will try (with Herbert if he wish ) to describe them as clearly as possible.

spit
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 01:29 PM UTC
The Tiger-B with initial turret and the single link tracks was found at Haustenbeck proving grounds. The tracks of that one were swapped with another initial Tiger-B, since the barrel of the original carrier was blown, and that Tiger-B, with the single link tracks, is on display at Bovington.

The Tiger at Haustenbeck:

Of intrest, to the left, a Panther-G, to the right, the Geschutzwagen Tiger fur K2, and just visible, in the background, we see a glimpse of one of the VK-3601 Tiger-E predecessor prototypes built by Henschel.

This is the Tiger-B now at Bovington, as you can see, fitted with double link tracks at that moment:


And at it's present position:
Jamesite
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:56 AM UTC
NIce work so far Spit,

The damaged zimmerit looks great, reminds me a lot of the F05 Gruppe Fehrmann build in the Osprey book Modelling the Tiger 1 tank.

Herbert, looks like you'll have to grit your teeth regarding accuracy during this build!

Interesting about the Bovington Tiger though, i'd never noticed the late tracks on it before.

James
wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 03:09 AM UTC
Pawel, ugly can be beautiful in the right hands and I think you definitely qualify. I'm confident that you'll bring it to life with the painting and weathering without the need for the 100W bulb to intervene again.
marsiascout
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 07:40 AM UTC
Nice work! It looks like you're a KT addict.

Lars
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