Bill Cross helps us non German speaking modellers with our German, many thanks Bill. Enjoy



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If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!

Well, Abteilung is certainly NOT pronounced Ob-tie-loong, but Ap-tie-loong.

Zimmerit doesn't start with a hard Z, but is just Zimmer (like the walking aid) and than just it...

BergePanther: Ber-Gu-Pan-Tur

Das is pronounced simple das, not dos...

A w is not pronounced like a V by Germans at all, that's just Hollywood talking.

Panzer: Pahn-Sir

Kampfgruppe: Kam (as in Kam-ikaze) p-ph group-u

Kraft as in the popular musicgroup Kraft-werk.

KwK is short for KampfwagenKanone

Grün is pronounced Grun like the un in union, but without the y sound at the start

PaK is just PaK, not POK... And should NOT be all caps, is Panzerabwehr Kanone. Panzerabwehr is one word. Like on the FlaK, Flugzeugabwehr Kanone.

Topfblende translates to Pot mantlet, where did you get oven lid?

Some additional words:

Ausf. stands for Ausführung, which means mark. It sounds like Ous (Out with an S) Fuur (Für Elise) roong.

Ketten, tracks. Cat-tun

StuPa - SturmPanzer Stoorm Pan-Sir

I don't mean to sound overly critical and offensive but there are very many mistakes in the pronounciations of those words and I don't think Herbert hit the nail on the head either. The problem with German pronounciation is that it is so different from English, it's hard to put in writing but not impossible. Even if it could be done it wouldn't be great and text can never substitute a teacher.
While I grew up in the US I tried to teach my friends some German and it took really long for them to get it close.

Exactly what I also ran into, it's so difficult to get the proper sound to match the German pronounciation.

Only solution would be to actually hear the words in a soundfile.

And really, the w as a V sound... that's just downright comical...

Thanks for the input guys, but I believe Bill was only try to help out the guys who have zero knowledge in German. Mow it does appear that there may be some mistakes and you seem to have the knowledge to help me and Bill correct them for the benefit of all.

Please feel free to email myself or Bill the corrections and I will update this feature

cheers

Keith

Thank you, Gents for your input. A couple of observations:

Qualifications: I HATE it when others want to prove their's is longer, but I should point out for those reading this I was Phi Beta Kappa and summa cum laude in German at the University of California in the 1970s. I did some basic German instruction while studying for a PhD I never completed at Yale. That doesn't mean I can't make mistakes, just want to set the record straight.

Realistic Goals: I think it says it all that neither Sebastian nor Herbert can completely agree on the correct way to render the sounds in question. That's not a criticism of either, BTW, but goes to the heart of the matter: you can't really learn how to speak another language from reading how it's pronounced. I wrote this with the intention of helping those in the hobby go from often wretched renderings (Loof woffe, Wear mawk) to something at least RESEMBLING German. So while Abteilung is correctly pronounced "App Teil oong" according to its components (ab + Teil + ung), that will not help most Americans come up with a reasonable version. Herbert, your version is likely to result in something sounding like "appetizer."

Making It Better: Again, I find it interesting that neither Herbert nor Sebastian have much encouragement about the entire process. I don't mean that as criticism, but I think we need to realize this feature isn't going to substitute for a class at your local adult ed facility or a year of college German. I'm open to suggestions for improving it, though at the end of the day, I've chosen these pronounciations based on my judgement and my estimate of what will be helpful to beginners, and not as a scholarly instruction manual. As Keith said, feel free to PM me with suggestions. But without meaning to sound mean, I reserve the right to stick with my "incorrect" versions if I think that's the way it will help folks who just want a basic guide that will help them not sound foolish around their peers.

I would suggest looking at the German for modellers topic that was around here a few months back, people were posting some good suggestions there. Herbert's suggestion of a sound file is probably the best solution to teaching basic German pronounciation and it would be something that I would also consider making. It could be posted as a video on youtube, accessible to anyone here. All I would need is a list of the words most people want explained and pronounced.

Hi, Sebastian. If you notice, I started that topic, and I incorporated a number of suggestions made.


That's a terrific idea, and I welcome your participation.

The easiest thing would be to run through my list and duplicate it with all the correct pronounciations using a High German accent (no Bayerdeutsch, LOL!). That way forum members who want to go a step further can cross-reference the list. I have no objections to adding a hot link to a You Tube upload if Keith doesn't.

The Panzer Tracts books have a list of used German abreviations and such, I would happily make soundfiles of all those words.

Only thing is, where can you host those? I know about pictures and videos, but a sound-type of Flickr or YouTube?

Hello,

IMO this feature is a good one.


To give you an idea and as a kind of support I have uploaded an AV-file on YouTube.


Sound quality is not good as is my voice but nonetheless the way how the words are being spelled and sound might be of some help and should serve the purpose.


As I am not familiar with the entire edit functions, the video could be hard to follow/listen at the first time.


I simply parrot the words listed by Bill from '1' (Abteilung) down to '42' (Zimmerit).


In the meanwhile I try to figure out how I can add words combined with a pop-up function etc.

Just a curious question, but does the various areas of Germany have different accents as we have here in Yankee land? One simple word like "car" can be pronounced quite differently simply by the region the speaker comes from. (that's part of the fun of Yankee-English)
You say Ta-Maa-Toe, I say Toe-May-Toe-- still the red fruit or veggie--- depending where you hail from.

Nice job on the article Bill.....

Hello,

we too have got different accents.

The clearest German (which is formally called Hochdeutsch (High German)) is being spoken in and around the area of Hannover.

It's hard to discribe how the differences sound in particular.

I think the pronounciation isn't all that bad, the problem is that in english there is no one size fits all for one letter pronunciation, for example A is pronounced in many different ways in english as well. So give Bill some slack here!

I'm sure you all know what "Ghoti" is?

Gh - as in enough
o - as in women
ti - as in nation

"Fish"

Cheerio and happy new year to you all!

Pretty good and useful list, Bill. Leaned some things I didn't know...

Thanks for compiling this!

Rob

Sound files sound interesting. ----- forgive the pun.
Hell, travel around the US, or even in NYC and you'll heard at least 25 different pronunciations of the same word.
Just in my little section of New Jersey you can hear different pronunciations from "native speaking Americans", plus throw in those with English as a second language and you really do come up with some interesting variations of the same word.

So from my point of view the meanings of the words means more to me than how to sound or speak German, which I think the article covered pretty well.

add into this the German lanuage has high, middle, and low german it gets confusing.

I learned what I know from an american exchange student who went to germany to study science

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. The article seems to have gotten a lot of us talking, so that's a good thing.

thanks for that Marco, I have added the link to the main feature if that is ok

cheers

Keith

Marco, the sound file is excellent (far better than if I did it, LOL! ).

Too bad there isn't some way to fade from term to term so that listeners could see the original words. But this is really fabulous, thanks for pitching in and making this better!

Same old Herbert: der Besserwisser (pronounced "bessah-vissah") schlechthin.

Bill was only trying to be helpful, but as usual you have to mire the topic in your smarter-than-thou pedantry from atop your high horse.

It wouldn't be so bad - if you actually knew what you were talking about.

The letter "w" in German is commonly pronounced like an English "v". (And while we're at it, the German "v" is commonly rendered like an English "f").

Oh and Herbert - before you ask about my "qualifications": No, I'm not a native speaker of German, but I am a fluent non-native German speaker. I've studied German at school and university since the age of 12, have lived and worked in Germany for the past 20 years, and am a translator (and occasional interpreter) by profession. Oh yes - and I also know LOTS of Germans. All of whom pronounce "W"s as "V"s.

A few simple examples off the top of my head (italics for syllable emphasis):

Volkswagen: pronounced "folks-vaagen"
Wirtschaft (economy): pronounced "veert-shaft"
Widerstand (resistance): pronounced "vidder-stant"
wieviel (how many): pronounced "vee-feel"

I could sit here all night reeling them off, but I'm sure you get the picture. So I'll just add one more to the list, because it sums up your above contribution here, so I thought it was quite apt:

Verschlimmbesserung (pronounced "fer-shlimm-besserung).

There's no nice neat one-word translation of that into English, it just means "adding in a mistake in an effort to correct something that doesn't need correcting".

If you're going to slate Bill's efforts to try and make yourself look clever, at least check your facts first - because several other things in your list are wrong as well.

- Steve

I applaud Bill's efforts, and while those who want to improve his compilation are also trying to be helpful, let's not turn this into a besserwisser thing, as Steve says. (Didn't Armorama disappear, Stalin style, the Ultimate Besserwisser?

The sound file, while I haven't heard it, is a great idea as well.

Dave, indeed there are VAST diffences in pronunciation in the different regions of Germany, just as in the US. In Berlin, the words are often very difficult to recognize as what they were originally- The letter "G" is often pronounced as a "J" as in "Voll jut, ee!" Or in past perfect tenses words such as "gemeint" become "jemeint." There's also Det for Das.
"Not me" (Ich nicht) is "ikke nicht" in Berlin, and farther south it becomes "i net."

Most places replace "Zwei" with "Zwo" I believe not so much as a dialectical device but to differentiate it from "Drei" when rattling off your digits to some Braut in a club while Mannheim thumps in the background.

And Steves example shows the differneces between how he learned, and learning it off of the streets of Berlin, which I did before going to University to "relearn" it.




I would pronounce that one VeedeSHtant

just juat to add a few

Schlepper - Tractor

Berge ( ie Bergepanther) - salvage/reuse

Berg - Mountain

Maultier - Mule

Wespe - Wasp

Fuchs - Fox

Luchs - Lynx

I knew I've been taking German for four years for some reason.

Hey Bill, I think you did an excellent job. It may not be perfect technically wise, but to someone like me, who has almost no knowldge of the German language and is not planning to get a degree in it or moving there, it was very useful. The one thing about Armorama, as much as I love it, there are people hee that love to nit pick and get great joy out of it. I have bookmarked it and will refer to it as needed. Great article! Anthony.

Thanks, Anthony, you're exactly the kind of member here I'm trying to help with this, and I'm thrilled it was useful. There will always be nitpickers, the trick is to ignore their carping and focus on the people who help build our amazing community. Marco's soundfile, for example, is really good and useful. I'm happy my little feature was helpful to you and I hope it will make modeling more fun for those who use it.

Could I just add a few that have been missed off the list but are very often encountered in German modelling (in fact Bill, you put one in the header but then didn't explain it in the text!).

Fahrgestelle - chassis
Krankenkraftwagen - ambulance
Shutzenpanzerwagen (SPW) - usually an armoured halftrack, but literally "rifleman's armoured vehicle"
Sonderkraftfahrzeug - usually abbreviated to Sdkfz followed by a number, e.g.Sdkfz251 - "special purpose vehicle" - this refers to the identification number allocated by the Waffenamt to vehicles both armoured and armoured in the standard inventory by use, irrespective of manufacturer.
Tarnejacke - camoflauged jacket

As I am not a German student or speaker, I'm not even going to attempt to offer a pronumnciation. Thanks for making the effort Bill, I'm sure it will be of assistance to new modellers, it will help translate what kit manufacturers put on the boxes anyway!