Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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Armata
Krokogen
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Posted: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 - 11:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Guys, English please? My Russian is a little rusty

Also, I 'cant find signs of an active protection system as has been advertised several times. Right now, everything is pointing at a turret with hastily slapped together.


КАЗ "Афганит" - tubes around hatches. On tank - under tower.
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6747/8955119.9/0_9c46e_17221083_X5L.jpg


RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 12:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

.
Now, back on topic: Anyone care to comment on modern armour physics (see my earlier post)?



The cyrillic letters that Google helped me with:
The first was the suggested name: Wladimir Putin 1 (a joke on the Josef Stalin tanks of WW II)
The second and third words were maskirovka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskirovka (well worth reading)
and dezinformatsiia (disinformation).


As for the armour question: Somewhere on the internet there is an image showing the business end of a T-55 or T-62 gun with a narrow silvery streak (on the side of the gun) that gets wider and deeper until it turns into an entrance hole where a arrow of an APFSDS round fired by an IDF tank had entered. It apparently continued through the breach of the gun into the turret and knocked out that T-55 / T-62.
The shot was reportedly firedin a duel situation where the Israeli tank fired first so the angle was well below 10 degrees ...
/ Robin
todorovicandreas
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 02:40 AM UTC
Im right now in moscow and saw the second night rehearsal. I can tell you that Armata looks damn impressive if you stay almost next to it, the sound is something I never heard before. As pointed out, the tubes seem to be the active defense system like drozd in the past. Those tubes are definitely no smoke dischargers, that may hidden somewhere else. Its funny, no one knows anything about Armata but start ripping it apart, just like some folks do with announced model kits. Honestly, what did you expect? A flying tank with laser swords and R2D2 in the turret? Its a huge FIRST step into a new direction. Who would have believed in the past how for example the T-72 will evolve? Of course Russia wanted to show something off for this parade, but wait how this will turn out after years of examination and upgrades.

Its late, Im off for tonight, cant wait for the next rehearsal and the actual parade! Hurra! Best regards,

Andreas
ejasonk
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Guys, English please? My Russian is a little rusty



It's time to teach! And then suddenly we will come, but you're not ready



Wow. As Russia born, i watch your Kremlin TV full of hate against other nations in daily format, with funny or not so funny statements even in the morning shows how Russia should invade with tanks and bombs Europe - so please, this forum is not a place for your nationalist political words.

And however: all experts were telling that Russia is lacking knowlegde in IT, electronics, automatization to make kind of "super tank" of a new era. So the prediction comes true.
Of course this is not cheat&camouflage of the real super tank design, hiding it from "western". This is just unfinished business and this is very typical for russian inverstigations this days.

There is finally a new bigger chassis for Russia to build future projects on it, no more big deal at the moment. All those things which were produced, are simple propotypes, which even did no fullfil the entire testing. Nothing of that, which could be implemented into army service within the next time. World's arm expos show hundreds of new age weapon systems this days, which have undergone a much higher maturity levels.

So, because of your affinity to celebrate the WW2 victory as the most important day (or better the glory motherland war, starting from 1941, while you fade-out 1939-1940 period from your glory history), it's not really conclusive to threat by "we'll come" other people, even in form of being funny. For some funny reason, you russians never hear or read the "very bad" europeans or americans telling they will come to you. Never. Keep cool, friend
ejasonk
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:25 AM UTC
And yes, the "tubes" are self defense explosives launchers. Israel for instance is quite experienced in implementing those systems.

However, upper hull looks uneffectively armed from above with it's motor cooling hatches in the IPC variant, with engine moved to the front of the vehicle. For me as engineer this is a typical sign of a compromis in design.
todorovicandreas
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 10:31 AM UTC
Sad, so much hate in this forum. Evgenij, If your honest our TV is full with russia bashing every day. So this whole kremlin propaganda bla bla is getting boring. How far did we get in europe if we get panic because some bikers from russia want to make a tour through europe? Now honestly? We have our propaganda and they have theirs. I could throw up reading our newspapers. And the fact you say russians will never hear from europe or america that they are going to invade is not because its not true, its just because they dont dare to speak out what a lot think or even wish! Period!

Lets stop here guys, its a modelling forum, we used to help and not flame each other. Im out, so much Russophobia! Im ashamed and dissappointed. Sorry to our russian members who may feel offended, just keep in mind not all in the "west" think like that! Period.

Andreas
young_sven
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 10:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... Its funny, no one knows anything about Armata but start ripping it apart, just like some folks do with announced model kits. Honestly, what did you expect? A flying tank with laser swords and R2D2 in the turret? Its a huge FIRST step into a new direction. Who would have believed in the past how for example the T-72 will evolve? Of course Russia wanted to show something off for this parade, but wait how this will turn out after years of examination and upgrades.

... Best regards,

Andreas



So true, Andreas..

I see this mostly when something new is announced in countries such as Russia, China etc (i.e. from "the east"). So much scepticism, the comments about "this must only be a mockup", "they don't have the money to do this" or " this must be a copy since it is made in China", same old - same old.

(Side note: The same scepticism would seem to pop up quite often in regards to models - the words "China" and "copy" often used in the same sentence, despite the fact that the most innovative model producers we have today are almost all from China).

In Sweden, we often see pics of prototype vehicles that at that particular point in time would be completely useless in battle, since they are... yes.. prototypes. We still think they look cool, and like the designs etc.

The scepticism of new designs, it would seem, is reserved for those coming from the east.

All machines have been prototypes at some point, and some/many of them have been total crap even when produced and used in combat. :-)
I won't mention any, so nobody will be offended.

By the way Robin, I am impressed by your "Google-Russian" skills.. :-)

So, off topic. I think this new Russian tank looks cool, even though my personal taste is not for "stealthy, angular thingies" and I would probably not buy/build it if it was released as a model.

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 12:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

....
By the way Robin, I am impressed by your "Google-Russian" skills.. :-)

...



Nothing to be impressed about (found this Latin-to-Cyrillic converter by asking Google):
http://5ko.free.fr/en/cyr.html
Latin to Cyrillic text converter and then copy paste the cyrillic text to Google to verify the results (was it Vladimir or Wladimir ...hmmm) One variant yielded better results.
"Maskirovka" I knew the latin transliteration for and then Wikipedia gave me the rest about desinformation :-)
Piece of cake ...
ejasonk
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 01:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Sad, so much hate in this forum. Evgenij, If your honest our TV is full with russia bashing every day. So this whole kremlin propaganda bla bla is getting boring.
Andreas



As i told:
I am russian, i speak russian, i watch russian media. I am able to compare russian media content with our european media. You'll never find threats against Russia here as they do, no where we threat them with atomic weapons and we don't play silly word games like "why should we not invade them?" Each sundays they are bashing us as "devilsh" in prime time tv

For those, who think i'm kidding:


http://youtu.be/lCTRicNjbp8
ejasonk
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 02:18 PM UTC
Btw:
Armata for the second time in the parade repetition got stuck due to engine loss, today it happened at the general repetition. The recoverage failed due to blocked transmission, the tank was standing there untill the end of repetition.

todorovicandreas
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Sad, so much hate in this forum. Evgenij, If your honest our TV is full with russia bashing every day. So this whole kremlin propaganda bla bla is getting boring.
Andreas



As i told:
I am russian, i speak russian, i watch russian media. I am able to compare russian media content with our european media. You'll never find threats against Russia here as they do, no where we threat them with atomic weapons and we don't play silly word games like "why should we not invade them?" Each sundays they are bashing us as "devilsh" in prime time tv

For those, who think i'm kidding:


http://youtu.be/lCTRicNjbp8



No threats? honestly? just expand near its boarders and build up rocket shields there? sanction it for many actions without to be proven? honestly? no threats? Many actions in Russias front and backyards and you dare to say no threats?honestly?

sensless to keep answering but i couldn't resist.
Regards, Andreas
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 12:44 AM UTC
Andreas,
Please remember that regimes all over the world, through all ages, have built up big fantasies about external threats in order to get their own people to forget about their internal problems.
When the media and official channels start displaying "the big external threat" then it is time to start thinking about the situation at home. It is like conjurors in the circus, the trick is to get the audience to look in the wrong direction ;-)
/ Robin
David1988
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Sad, so much hate in this forum. Evgenij, If your honest our TV is full with russia bashing every day. So this whole kremlin propaganda bla bla is getting boring.
Andreas



As i told:
I am russian, i speak russian, i watch russian media. I am able to compare russian media content with our european media. You'll never find threats against Russia here as they do, no where we threat them with atomic weapons and we don't play silly word games like "why should we not invade them?" Each sundays they are bashing us as "devilsh" in prime time tv

For those, who think i'm kidding:


http://youtu.be/lCTRicNjbp8



My understanding is that the video you have linked - as evidence of purported Russian aggression towards Europe - is actually a comedy sketch. It is not an actual news item from the Russian media.

I do not like such attempts to put enmity between Russia and Europe whereas in fact our cultures and general population can find many points in common.

*Edited as I calmed down.
todorovicandreas
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Andreas,
Please remember that regimes all over the world, through all ages, have built up big fantasies about external threats in order to get their own people to forget about their internal problems.
When the media and official channels start displaying "the big external threat" then it is time to start thinking about the situation at home. It is like conjurors in the circus, the trick is to get the audience to look in the wrong direction ;-)
/ Robin



I agree 100% but then you can turn this 180 degrees too..,Russia as a threat for europe to hide its degenerating economy and dying banking system plus the €...,,I hope you get what I mean as english is not my language. All Im saying is: We have our problems and so do the russians. We try to hide them and blame others so does Russia. But in the last months its like whatever happened...blame Putin. This behaviour sucks....,and in some cases its disgusting when tragedies are used as propaganda against Putin/Russia. My simple point of view. And not all is just fantasy, take a map, mark all NATO bases and other western military infrastructure and then tell me who LOOKS LiKE the aggressor......

Andreas
todorovicandreas
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Sad, so much hate in this forum. Evgenij, If your honest our TV is full with russia bashing every day. So this whole kremlin propaganda bla bla is getting boring.
Andreas



As i told:
I am russian, i speak russian, i watch russian media. I am able to compare russian media content with our european media. You'll never find threats against Russia here as they do, no where we threat them with atomic weapons and we don't play silly word games like "why should we not invade them?" Each sundays they are bashing us as "devilsh" in prime time tv

For those, who think i'm kidding:


http://youtu.be/lCTRicNjbp8



My understanding is that the video you have linked - as evidence of purported Russian aggression towards Europe - is actually a comedy sketch. It is not an actual news item from the Russian media.

I do not like such attempts to put enmity between Russia and Europe whereas in fact our cultures and general population can find many points in common.

*Edited as I calmed down.



Thanks for clearing this up David! I especially like your last sentence. Im here in moscow right now and can confirm what you have written.

Regards,
Andreas
Ars_Rus
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 01:58 AM UTC
Evgenij please stop incite hatred against Russian. I do not even know what kind of channel shows such nonsense. The opinion of some not professional journalists is not the opinion of the people.You can even write a journalistic investigation Ukrainian media that the tanks and towers dummies made of papier mache. Armata really stopped today at the rehearsal of the parade, Uralvagonzavod has officially declared that the problem was poorly trained crew, after the parade, people were allowed to see the tank and take pictures, and then he left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13Cngj0j0Y

Sincerely your good friend from Russia. Peace for everyone.
todorovicandreas
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 02:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Evgenij please stop incite hatred against Russian. I do not even know what kind of channel shows such nonsense. The opinion of some not professional journalists is not the opinion of the people.You can even write a journalistic investigation Ukrainian media that the tanks and towers dummies made of papier mache. Armata really stopped today at the rehearsal of the parade, Uralvagonzavod has officially declared that the problem was poorly trained crew, after the parade, people were allowed to see the tank and take pictures, and then he left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13Cngj0j0Y

Sincerely your good friend from Russia. Peace for everyone.



Hello Arsen,

Agree 100%. Thanks for the info regarding Armata. I suppose the new engine has also a new sort of gear and its new for the crews of course. Where are you going to whatch the parade? At the night rehearsal I was on Twerskaya street, near the metro station, had a nice view. I wasnt able to get on red square since im here, how did those people get there yesterday? At the evening it was closed again and before that I was in Kubinka...

Best regards,
Andreas
Ars_Rus
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 03:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Evgenij please stop incite hatred against Russian. I do not even know what kind of channel shows such nonsense. The opinion of some not professional journalists is not the opinion of the people.You can even write a journalistic investigation Ukrainian media that the tanks and towers dummies made of papier mache. Armata really stopped today at the rehearsal of the parade, Uralvagonzavod has officially declared that the problem was poorly trained crew, after the parade, people were allowed to see the tank and take pictures, and then he left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13Cngj0j0Y

Sincerely your good friend from Russia. Peace for everyone.



Hello Arsen,

Agree 100%. Thanks for the info regarding Armata. I suppose the new engine has also a new sort of gear and its new for the crews of course. Where are you going to whatch the parade? At the night rehearsal I was on Twerskaya street, near the metro station, had a nice view. I wasnt able to get on red square since im here, how did those people get there yesterday? At the evening it was closed again and before that I was in Kubinka...

Best regards,
Andreas


I write to you in private messages.
JmeDubya
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 09:43 AM UTC
Wow, what a let down.

Looks like the T-72 is going to have to hold its own for another generation.
35th-scale
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 04:21 PM UTC
Can I suggest we keep this to a discussion of the equipment and wondering who'll be first to produce it in 1/35 scale? There are a lot of other forums out there for political discussions
Bodeen
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:13 PM UTC
Just found this:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-should-really-fear-russias-armata-t-14-tank-12836It seems like this is a hot button issue.
Bonaparte84
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 06:24 PM UTC
Your link won't work if people copy & paste with the "It" attached :

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-should-really-fear-russias-armata-t-14-tank-12836
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 07:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Interesting :-)

maybe they also need to show off their products in some live action ;-) A reference customer is always useful ....
/ Robin
The_musings_of_NBNoG
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 07:59 PM UTC
It will be a long while before they are used...

Why use a "Bishop" when there are sooooo many "pawns"?
(especially with tightened economics)
David1988
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Posted: Friday, May 08, 2015 - 12:23 AM UTC
It appears that the parade may be streamed via YouTube by Rossiya 24, a major Russian TV channel who also showed the recent films "President" and "Crimea. The Way Home".

There is an event on the channel's YouTube page here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE023IHaCyE

I hope the link is useful for anyone interested in watching the parade.