Ralph--DML did do an Ausf. B, but it is extremely rare. I have their Ausf. A and their Ausf. C/D kits, but could never find their Ausf. B kit anywhere. Your best bet for finding one of these at a reasonable cost (you could probably pay an incredible amount on E-Bay) would be to ask Dave (SS-74) to see if he can located you one over in HK. He has come through on numerous occasions for me.
Jeff--O.k. you get an A for trying. :-) I don't think that Tamiya ever did a 1940 version. They did the 1942, 2 different versions of the 1943, and the 1944 (T-34/85). If you like extensive projects (which it seems that you do after seeing that SU-76 of yours), you could take one of your old Tamiya T-34s and convert it with the Armo 1940 upper hull, Armo welded or cast 1940/41 turret, Armo early roadwheels, and some Friulmodel or MK 1940 style tracks. I have two of those conversions waiting for me to do them (one welded turret and the other cast turret). The conversions are wonderful and cheap considering what all you get. The hull and turrets are works of art. Both come with extensive PART PE (including complete fenders) and the turrets come with full interiors.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Operation Barbarossa Group Build
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:31 AM UTC
BroAbrams
Joined: October 02, 2002
KitMaker: 1,546 posts
Armorama: 1,081 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 01:17 AM UTC
Does anyone know if a Demag D7 would fit into this category?
Rob
Rob
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:16 AM UTC
O.k. let's try this again :-):
Here are the acceptable German vehicles:
- Pz. I Ausf. A & B
- Panzerbehfleswagen I Ausf. A & B
- Pz. II Ausf. A - F
- Pz. III Ausf. A - J (J can only be the early one with short-barreled 50mm)
- Pz. IV Ausf. A - F1
- Tauchpanzer III
- StuG III Ausf. A - D
- Pz. 35(t)
- Pz. 38(t) Ausf. A - F
- Flammpanzer II
- Bison I
- Panzerjager I
- Sdkfz 221/222/223
- Sdkfz 251 Ausf. A - C
- Sdkfz 2 Kettenkrad
- Sdkfz 6
- Sdkfz 7 & 7/1
- Sdkfz 8
- Sdkfz 9 FAMO
- Sdkfz 10 Demag (not D7)
- Sdkfz 11
- Sdkfz 252
- Sdkfz 253
- Sdkfz 250 alte
- Sdkfz 231/232 8-rad
- Opel trucks
- Krupp Protze
- Horch
- Steyr 1500A
- Mercedes-Benz L 1500 A
BAD:
- any vehicle of Pz I - IV, Pz. 38(t), or StuG III whose Ausf. #'s don't fall in the above ranges
- Wespe
- Hornisse/Nashorn/Hummel
- Sturm-Infanteriegeschutz 33
- StuG IV
- Jagdpanzer (any)
- Brummbar
- Flakpanzer (any)
- Panther or Jagdpanther
- Tiger or Jagdtiger
- Elefant/Ferdinand
- King Tiger
- Sturmtiger
- Grille (any)
- Bison II
- Sdkfz 251 Ausf D or any vehicle based on that version (e.g. Kanonwagen)
- Sdkfz 231/232 6-rad
- Panzerwerfer 42
- Sdkfz 7/2
- sWS
- Sdkfz 250 Neu or any vehicle based on that version (e.g. Stummel)
- Hetzer
- any vehicle from another country converted to SPA, SPAA, TD
For more information please see: Achtung Panzer.
Here are the acceptable German vehicles:
- Pz. I Ausf. A & B
- Panzerbehfleswagen I Ausf. A & B
- Pz. II Ausf. A - F
- Pz. III Ausf. A - J (J can only be the early one with short-barreled 50mm)
- Pz. IV Ausf. A - F1
- Tauchpanzer III
- StuG III Ausf. A - D
- Pz. 35(t)
- Pz. 38(t) Ausf. A - F
- Flammpanzer II
- Bison I
- Panzerjager I
- Sdkfz 221/222/223
- Sdkfz 251 Ausf. A - C
- Sdkfz 2 Kettenkrad
- Sdkfz 6
- Sdkfz 7 & 7/1
- Sdkfz 8
- Sdkfz 9 FAMO
- Sdkfz 10 Demag (not D7)
- Sdkfz 11
- Sdkfz 252
- Sdkfz 253
- Sdkfz 250 alte
- Sdkfz 231/232 8-rad
- Opel trucks
- Krupp Protze
- Horch
- Steyr 1500A
- Mercedes-Benz L 1500 A
BAD:
- any vehicle of Pz I - IV, Pz. 38(t), or StuG III whose Ausf. #'s don't fall in the above ranges
- Wespe
- Hornisse/Nashorn/Hummel
- Sturm-Infanteriegeschutz 33
- StuG IV
- Jagdpanzer (any)
- Brummbar
- Flakpanzer (any)
- Panther or Jagdpanther
- Tiger or Jagdtiger
- Elefant/Ferdinand
- King Tiger
- Sturmtiger
- Grille (any)
- Bison II
- Sdkfz 251 Ausf D or any vehicle based on that version (e.g. Kanonwagen)
- Sdkfz 231/232 6-rad
- Panzerwerfer 42
- Sdkfz 7/2
- sWS
- Sdkfz 250 Neu or any vehicle based on that version (e.g. Stummel)
- Hetzer
- any vehicle from another country converted to SPA, SPAA, TD
For more information please see: Achtung Panzer.
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:36 AM UTC
Here are the acceptable Soviet vehicles:
- T-18
- T-20 Komsomlyets
- T-26
- T-27
- T-28
- T-30
- T-34/76 (1940 & 1941 models only)
- T-35
- T-37
- T-38
- T-40
- T-50
- T-60 (spoked wheels only)
- BT-2
- BT-5 & 5A
- BT-7 & 7A
- OT-26
- KV-1 (1939 - 1941 models only)
- KV-1e (KV-1B)
- KV-2
- ZiS-30
- D-8
- FAI & FAI-M
- all BA-* armored cars except BA-64
- M3 Lee
BAD:
- BA-64
- T-60 (dished wheels version)
- T-70
- T-80
- any Stalin
- any SU
- KV-IS (KV-1C)
- KV-85
- T-34/76 (1942 or 1943 versions)
- T-34/85
- OT-134
- artillery tractors besides T-20
- any Lend-Lease vehicle besides M3 Lee
For more information please see: The Russian Battlefield.
- T-18
- T-20 Komsomlyets
- T-26
- T-27
- T-28
- T-30
- T-34/76 (1940 & 1941 models only)
- T-35
- T-37
- T-38
- T-40
- T-50
- T-60 (spoked wheels only)
- BT-2
- BT-5 & 5A
- BT-7 & 7A
- OT-26
- KV-1 (1939 - 1941 models only)
- KV-1e (KV-1B)
- KV-2
- ZiS-30
- D-8
- FAI & FAI-M
- all BA-* armored cars except BA-64
- M3 Lee
BAD:
- BA-64
- T-60 (dished wheels version)
- T-70
- T-80
- any Stalin
- any SU
- KV-IS (KV-1C)
- KV-85
- T-34/76 (1942 or 1943 versions)
- T-34/85
- OT-134
- artillery tractors besides T-20
- any Lend-Lease vehicle besides M3 Lee
For more information please see: The Russian Battlefield.
Oberst
Joined: June 26, 2002
KitMaker: 851 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:40 AM UTC
Are you sure the Kettenkrad was from that time period?
I thought it was introduced later.
Andrew
I thought it was introduced later.
Andrew
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:50 AM UTC
According to Achtung Panzer, the Kettenkrad entered production in late 1940 which would mean it would have made it to the front by the time Barbarossa kicked off. All of the vehicles from these list came from digging on Achtung Panzer and The Russian Battlefield. Those sites are reasonably correct.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:51 AM UTC
Hi Adam ............thanks for the advice. I'll check Dave out.
Listen, great job on the pro & con vehicle list for Barbarossa ! - HOWEVER, I just like to point out in case there is anyone out there who would have wanted to build a Sd Kfz 232 6-Rad Panzerfunkwagen ( Armored Radio Car ) and think they can't. From my past research: Although withdrawn from front line service in 1940 this vehicle still served with 82.Nachrichten Abt / 6.Panzer Div as a command car for communication duties up until 1942. This info was noted and verified through research by the very reputable author & historian Horst Scheibert, and can also be found in his book on THE HISTORY OF THE GERMAN MOTORIZED UNITS 1935-1945. I just thought this should be known to any who might take a liking to the vehicle. I should add that 6.Pz.Div began their action with Army Group North in the 4.Panzer Group and was later tranferred to Army Group Center.
- ralph
Listen, great job on the pro & con vehicle list for Barbarossa ! - HOWEVER, I just like to point out in case there is anyone out there who would have wanted to build a Sd Kfz 232 6-Rad Panzerfunkwagen ( Armored Radio Car ) and think they can't. From my past research: Although withdrawn from front line service in 1940 this vehicle still served with 82.Nachrichten Abt / 6.Panzer Div as a command car for communication duties up until 1942. This info was noted and verified through research by the very reputable author & historian Horst Scheibert, and can also be found in his book on THE HISTORY OF THE GERMAN MOTORIZED UNITS 1935-1945. I just thought this should be known to any who might take a liking to the vehicle. I should add that 6.Pz.Div began their action with Army Group North in the 4.Panzer Group and was later tranferred to Army Group Center.
- ralph
SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
Armorama: 2,388 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 04:10 AM UTC
One thing about Tauchpanzer III. the one is okay is of H variant, and of the H variant only the 37mm gun one. The 50mm gun one might be too late for Barbarosa.
BroAbrams
Joined: October 02, 2002
KitMaker: 1,546 posts
Armorama: 1,081 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 04:25 AM UTC
Okay, I think asking if the D7 was okay was half-a**ed on my part. I should have checked myself. I am considering the non-armored D7 with 2cm Flak 30. The kit instructions said it was designed in the mid thirties and built til 1944. I have done some online checking and it seems to me it would be okay. Here are my sources, the last is the one I find most convincing, can I have your guys opinions, please.
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_sdkfz10.php3
http://iquebec.ifrance.com/2iemeguerre/blindes/demagsdkfz10.htm
site is french, but I can read a little french and it looks like 1937
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/halftracks_2.html
Rob
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_sdkfz10.php3
http://iquebec.ifrance.com/2iemeguerre/blindes/demagsdkfz10.htm
site is french, but I can read a little french and it looks like 1937
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/halftracks_2.html
Rob
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 04:41 AM UTC
Rob--The following line from the last link has me leary:
It doesn't say when a D7 was armed with the FlaK30. Because the D7 came about a bit later, I would be a bit worried that the FlaK30 armed version would have taken a while, but at worst it probably would have hit the front lines by early 1942 at the latest so if that is what you want to do it should be fine.
Quoted Text
In 1938, a 2cm FlaK30 was mounted on the Demag DII 3 which was the predecessor of the D7. Sides and rear would fold down to create a platform.
It doesn't say when a D7 was armed with the FlaK30. Because the D7 came about a bit later, I would be a bit worried that the FlaK30 armed version would have taken a while, but at worst it probably would have hit the front lines by early 1942 at the latest so if that is what you want to do it should be fine.
BroAbrams
Joined: October 02, 2002
KitMaker: 1,546 posts
Armorama: 1,081 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 07:11 AM UTC
I am thinking the kit is mislabeled then, the kit matches the image shown, which clearly states it is the earlier variant. I think the kit actually represents the earlier variant. Do you know what differences there are between the DII 3 and the D7? Perhaps it might only mean a little conversion?
Rob
Rob
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 07:19 AM UTC
If hte kit matches the image then I would go ahead and do it. I don't know too much about the Demag D7, but could it be that the differences between the versions were not very visible such as engine, transimission, drive-train, etc. related?
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:16 AM UTC
Ok, When we starting? I'm throwin in with an Italeri Opel Maultier with FLAK 38 20mm. Luv dem sofskins!
Piglet No.1 #:-)
Piglet No.1 #:-)
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 04:02 PM UTC
Chief--I'm afraid that the Opel Maultier halftrack isn't correct for this build. I was looking up this particular vehicle because I had that suspision and they didn't start making the halftrack until 1942 and didn't mount the AA piece until even later. Sorry.
DesertRat
Joined: September 26, 2002
KitMaker: 131 posts
Armorama: 40 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 07:08 AM UTC
Hey,
I had a busy week (you know, busy with the real work!), and on returning here, I have found my messages dissapeared together with the breakdown...
Well, just to remind you, I will be the "odd man out", with a cavalry subject... I mean real cavalry, a man on a horse, not mechanized!
Remember I'm not familiarised with the group building concept. So, some (probably stupid) questions:
Should I somehow "enter" my project in some kind of list? Or just present it in June?
We're not to begin until June 21st. Will the moderators post an announcement about the beginning of the fun? And when does it finish? I think September was said?
I understand we will then, if possible, put here S-b-S photos and discuss about the subjects, until the end of the Group Building .
So, should we do something about it , here in Armorama, until June? Or should we just quietly select subject, do the proper research and begin building, and wait until June?
If there is some place here at Armorama where these questions are already dealt with, just lead me there!
Regards,
Dani
I had a busy week (you know, busy with the real work!), and on returning here, I have found my messages dissapeared together with the breakdown...
Well, just to remind you, I will be the "odd man out", with a cavalry subject... I mean real cavalry, a man on a horse, not mechanized!
Remember I'm not familiarised with the group building concept. So, some (probably stupid) questions:
Should I somehow "enter" my project in some kind of list? Or just present it in June?
We're not to begin until June 21st. Will the moderators post an announcement about the beginning of the fun? And when does it finish? I think September was said?
I understand we will then, if possible, put here S-b-S photos and discuss about the subjects, until the end of the Group Building .
So, should we do something about it , here in Armorama, until June? Or should we just quietly select subject, do the proper research and begin building, and wait until June?
If there is some place here at Armorama where these questions are already dealt with, just lead me there!
Regards,
Dani
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
Armorama: 2,782 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 07:40 AM UTC
Looked in The Pig Pile,and the SdKfz 250/11 (panzerbusche) has the Alte chassis.
Ok for Barbarossa?
If anyone else chooses this,we can do different #'s on the license plates / vehicles.
Ok for Barbarossa?
If anyone else chooses this,we can do different #'s on the license plates / vehicles.
penpen
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
Armorama: 929 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 08:51 AM UTC
I'll be buiding a soviet BA6 armored car. My girlfriend got me the kit, so I need to find : the twelvth wheel, eduard PE, the 45 mm cannon !
I already got myself the special number from "steel masters" that deals with the spanish war and has a great article about building the BA6. If you can lay your hands on that number of the magazine, I highly counsel it. It gives step by step demonstrations, with photos, of how to beautifuly weather a tank. One of the people explaining his techniques is no one else but MIG (Miguel Guimenez).
for desertrat : on the forum, we'll be discussing choice of model, sources of pictures and so on until the starting day. On that day, the signal will be given, and then we can start the models. We can talk about the models, post in progress pictures... and then pictures of the finished projects ! All that will go on until the finishing date.
I already got myself the special number from "steel masters" that deals with the spanish war and has a great article about building the BA6. If you can lay your hands on that number of the magazine, I highly counsel it. It gives step by step demonstrations, with photos, of how to beautifuly weather a tank. One of the people explaining his techniques is no one else but MIG (Miguel Guimenez).
for desertrat : on the forum, we'll be discussing choice of model, sources of pictures and so on until the starting day. On that day, the signal will be given, and then we can start the models. We can talk about the models, post in progress pictures... and then pictures of the finished projects ! All that will go on until the finishing date.
Tanks46
Joined: June 02, 2002
KitMaker: 113 posts
Armorama: 98 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:25 AM UTC
Hi all. I'm in. I may even build the vehicle of choice in 1/35th scale to honor all you large scale thread heads. :-) Not sure what I may build but it'll be fun especially with all you guys.
Der Sonntag Bund Pig #3
Quoted Text
In war there is no substitute for victory. Gen. MacArthur
Der Sonntag Bund Pig #3
GIBeregovoy
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,612 posts
Armorama: 449 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:52 PM UTC
What are the rules again? Will this be purely OOTB build or will some modifications (e.g. PE, brass wires, other after-market parts) be allowed? I'm thinking of entering with Tamiya's Sdkfz 251/1 (is this acceptable?). Also, since I'm new in this group build thing, should I start building when the campaign starts or before? Yeah, stupid question, but really, since my Sdkfz is partly built (essentially 95% unbuilt - the only things cemented were minor parts like the chairs). Should I get a new kit even if it's 95% unbuilt? Thanks.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:13 AM UTC
Ditto above or
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'll be buiding a soviet BA6 armored car. My girlfriend got me the kit, so I need to find : the twelvth wheel, eduard PE, the 45 mm cannon !
I already got myself the special number from "steel masters" that deals with the spanish war and has a great article about building the BA6. If you can lay your hands on that number of the magazine, I highly counsel it. It gives step by step demonstrations, with photos, of how to beautifuly weather a tank. One of the people explaining his techniques is no one else but MIG (Miguel Guimenez).
for desertrat : on the forum, we'll be discussing choice of model, sources of pictures and so on until the starting day. On that day, the signal will be given, and then we can start the models. We can talk about the models, post in progress pictures... and then pictures of the finished projects ! All that will go on until the finishing date.
Is it In Spanish of french? PenPen
avukich
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 760 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 12:41 AM UTC
Here are the rules as I understand them:
1) Build begins on June 21, 2003 and ends in September.
2) Subject matter must be something related to armor (exception has been made for cavalry).
3) Subject matter must have been involved in Eastern Front battles between June 1941 and December 1941.
Those are the only rules. As long as you follow those 3 rules you are o.k. for the group build. There are no restrictions on how you build your kit. You can build it OOB or go as crazy with AM as you want.
TankCarl--In regards to the Sdkfz 250/11, I am not 100% sure, but since it is on the Alte chassis it should be fine.
GIBeregovoy--In regards to the SdKfz 251/1, it depends on the Ausf. designation. If it is the Sdkfz 251/1 Ausf. C it is fine, but if it is the Sdkfz 251/1 Ausf. D it is not fine.
In regards to the 95% unbuilt question, I will let Sabot or someone else make the call. I would lean toward saying that it should be completely unbuilt because it isn't supposed to start until June, but that's just my opinion.
1) Build begins on June 21, 2003 and ends in September.
2) Subject matter must be something related to armor (exception has been made for cavalry).
3) Subject matter must have been involved in Eastern Front battles between June 1941 and December 1941.
Those are the only rules. As long as you follow those 3 rules you are o.k. for the group build. There are no restrictions on how you build your kit. You can build it OOB or go as crazy with AM as you want.
TankCarl--In regards to the Sdkfz 250/11, I am not 100% sure, but since it is on the Alte chassis it should be fine.
GIBeregovoy--In regards to the SdKfz 251/1, it depends on the Ausf. designation. If it is the Sdkfz 251/1 Ausf. C it is fine, but if it is the Sdkfz 251/1 Ausf. D it is not fine.
In regards to the 95% unbuilt question, I will let Sabot or someone else make the call. I would lean toward saying that it should be completely unbuilt because it isn't supposed to start until June, but that's just my opinion.
penpen
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
Armorama: 929 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 02:49 AM UTC
Sgtreef : in the Stell Masters magazine, the text is in french, but you have english captions acompanying the many pictures. They madethat effort to make the magazine "saleable" worldwide.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 06:16 AM UTC
A partially started kit will be OK. Don't be showing off a fully completed kit a few days after the build begins. This group build is supposed to be for fun, honor system goes here. Most builders who do any WW2 armor probably has a kit on the shelf that fits the bill OOB. Think of this group build as a motivator to get that kit out of the box and onto the shelf (built, that is). I don't want anyone to feel bad because the only kit they had or could afford is the old Tamiya PzKfw II straight out the box (for example). It's also far enough into the future that you super-detailers can hunt down every conceiveable aftermarket item for the kit and put us all to shame.
As far as OOB/not OOB, again use the honor system and common sense. Replaced the exhaust with a Moskit one, a gun tube with an aluminum one, or aftermarket tracks, not OOB. Added stretched sprue antenna or masking tape strap to a rucksack that is included in the kit so you don't have "prostitute stowage", that's OK.
As far as OOB/not OOB, again use the honor system and common sense. Replaced the exhaust with a Moskit one, a gun tube with an aluminum one, or aftermarket tracks, not OOB. Added stretched sprue antenna or masking tape strap to a rucksack that is included in the kit so you don't have "prostitute stowage", that's OK.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2003 - 09:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sgtreef : in the Stell Masters magazine, the text is in french, but you have english captions acompanying the many pictures. They madethat effort to make the magazine "saleable" worldwide.
Thanks got me issue 50 on the way to check it out.
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