Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Chipping mythical
AmiPolizeiFunk
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:21 AM UTC
As a new member of Armorama, I found this thread to be quite entertaining. It's got some very informative posts, interspersed with completely useless, off-topic opinionated commentary! It would be nice if people could stay on topic, instead of derailing this interesting conversation into realms of whether they care or not! The original poster cares, so if you don't, bug on out of his thread! I'm frankly shocked that many here claim to "not care" about historical accuracy, as it seems to be the driving force of the entire website, and perhaps the entire hobby. We sure care that manufacturers "get it right" in the models they produce.

If indeed people are over-chipping all these legendary Axis beasts, and even more people are developing this notion that "there is nothing more boring than an un-chipped model", then we are clearly seeing a case of aesthetic appreciation getting manipulated by artistry!

Personally, I am building a fantasy Tiger I with a paint-job based on a video game! I know it's not even remotely accurate! But thanks to the expert contributors on this website and the research I've been doing lately, I've got a much better idea of what the various production Tigers really looked like, and the operations in which they were engaged. I truly appreciate the many of you that spend the time to make your models as precise as possible, that put the effort in to "get it right" as best you can. I get the most enjoyment out of looking at models that blend the border between artificiality and reality... that can transport you, fool you, coerce you into seeing, or believing that you're seeing, the genuine article! Next time I see some chip-crazy Cat, I'll be hitting "back".
bill_c
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bill, I was another one of those "stitch-Nazi". 23rd New York out of Arizona. I twisted a knee during a battle and decided I was too old to go around marching. Now I do 116th Panzer 60th out of Arizona so I can ride around.




LOL! Rowdy Pards! Still marching at 58, but my head still thinks I'm 28....
404NotFound
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 04:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As a new member of Armorama, I found this thread to be quite entertaining. It's got some very informative posts, interspersed with completely useless, off-topic opinionated commentary! It would be nice if people could stay on topic, instead of derailing this interesting conversation into realms of whether they care or not! The original poster cares, so if you don't, bug on out of his thread! I'm frankly shocked that many here claim to "not care" about historical accuracy, as it seems to be the driving force of the entire website, and perhaps the entire hobby. We sure care that manufacturers "get it right" in the models they produce.

If indeed people are over-chipping all these legendary Axis beasts, and even more people are developing this notion that "there is nothing more boring than an un-chipped model", then we are clearly seeing a case of aesthetic appreciation getting manipulated by artistry!

Personally, I am building a fantasy Tiger I with a paint-job based on a video game! I know it's not even remotely accurate! But thanks to the expert contributors on this website and the research I've been doing lately, I've got a much better idea of what the various production Tigers really looked like, and the operations in which they were engaged. I truly appreciate the many of you that spend the time to make your models as precise as possible, that put the effort in to "get it right" as best you can. I get the most enjoyment out of looking at models that blend the border between artificiality and reality... that can transport you, fool you, coerce you into seeing, or believing that you're seeing, the genuine article! Next time I see some chip-crazy Cat, I'll be hitting "back".



Thank you. I'm not sure why some feel a need to insert their "who cares?" comments into this thread... I certainly don't feel compelled to randomly click threads that don't interest me and let everyone know participating in those threads that I don't care about the topic...

And since we've heard from those that don't care, perhaps we could return to the discussion at hand and bring something more substantial to the table? Just a thought!
sauceman
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 04:57 AM UTC
Hey all,

I totally agree that some finishes on late war equipment such as Panther G's and Tiger II's are way over done with paintchipping and rust streaks. While the work involved and the end product can be truly outstanding and actually look extremely realistic, it'sprobably not credible for vehicles which might have less than a month in a theatre of war.

cheers from the sandbox
lespauljames
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:16 AM UTC
if i was to enter combat in this vehicle i would not feel safe:)

i know this is not ww2 but its the same prinacples.




if i wanted to make a wreck i would use chipping that is this severe, but for a tank in service, something more akin to scuffs and scrapes is in order!
Afroman
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:32 AM UTC
yes but they wouldnt consider bringing that back to the field, i know your using it as an example but (same principle)

the vechile would be brand new when entering the battlefield and torn up when it leaves.
i think the point of this thread really is, how long do tanks stay in the field, now if you are talking about ww2 then tanks could be in the field for up to 2 - 3 years and then get called back, for a scrub down and to replace parts, also the "red-primer" back box if the picture was taken near the end of ww2 it is very likly that it will be "red-primer" as the normal german yellow became in very short supply, so it is possible.

i just airbrushed my renault UE yay
Removed by original poster on 10/23/08 - 10:00:35 (GMT).
lespauljames
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:50 AM UTC
well you see, tyhe germans used the salt method to chip the tank, to make it look old, inside is a cryrogenic freezing lab and a shrink ray, the germans shrunk themselves , the whole army, and are hiding inside that tank, when the cryro is over, the germans will re bigulate themselves and attempt to take over the world in their Dog Ear'd panther with not enough road wheels!
Removed by original poster on 10/23/08 - 10:14:39 (GMT).
rotATOR
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:15 AM UTC
a little chipping is fine..and realistic. just dont over do it. simple.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Panzer Colors, page 90:

"Some large vehicles, especially the Jagdtiger and Tiger II, were painted in overall early war dark gray. It cannot be determined if this was a deliberate attempt to conceal these vehicles in shadows as was the case in 1939, or whether the dark gray paint was all that was available - left over from the early 1943 change to dark yellow base color."



And Spielberger mated the Schmalturm on the Panther-II and had the Panther-II still active in 1944.

Later research learned that the Panther-II was cancelled early 1943, that never ever was a definitive Panther-II turret designed (only armour thickness, a reduced frontal area and angles are stipulated) but still people put a Schmalturm on a Panther-II.

Spielberger also introduced the Henschel and Porsche denominators for the versions of the Tiger-B with the initial and serien turm. Again, later proven to be incorrect, yet it will just not go away.

The same applies to the late war Panzer Grey use on NEWLY produced vehicles. No evidence exists that supports this. The single indication that is true is that the use was allowed only IF the other 3 paints ran low.

It is incredibly difficult to stamp out all these old beliefs that have clearly proven to be incorrect.

JagdPanzer 38(t) Hetzer, a nice example as well. Or the shift from Ferdinand to Elefant name.

Part of why things are blurry is that records were being destroyed, documents burned whenever a German unit, division, platoon, Ortskommandantur, factory, government building was being overrun.

But still, new info is discovered as evidenced by a new Panzer Tracts on the Maus and E-100 which includes for the first time the actual design of the E-100 turret.

As history goes, we will never ever be 100% accurate, but we can get very close by using that which we know and extrapolating it in a serious matter.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There is nothing more boring than looking at an un-chipped model

there is nothing more boring than building an un-chipped model

that would be the same as looking at a playboy-girl with winterclothing on :-)

chips please !!!

cheers
Dom



Very insightful....

So why isn't accuracy regarded as imporatant anymore in modelling?

Because nowadays it is getting too easy to build accurate?

Chipping is a modeling fad, it's a fashion thing, like carrying a chihuahua around in your purse.
lespauljames
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:38 AM UTC
maybe, like dry brushing and washing, a la 10 yrs ago it will be used in more moderation in the future,
CaptainA
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:57 AM UTC
People who were in the military are all sure chipping occurs. Based on my time on tanks, I can assure you it does happen. Also, the paint tends to wear off on sharp corners and high traffic areas. For you civilian non-believers, just look in the back end of a dump truck or heavy construction equipment.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:36 AM UTC
A lot of replies in favour of chipping rely on personal experiences mostly in the US army today and the near past.

A fwe points to take into account when trying to compare that with German armour as being modeled:
- German tanks especially at the end was being put into service and usually lost within days
- How can hundreds of pictures all be wrong? I really have been going over them looking for anything that matches the degree of chipping I see and it just is not there.

And that brings me back to my original question: where does it come from?

A credible source to me is the mentioned early DAK-days, where Panzer Grau vehicles were hastlily sprayed a desert color and sent out into battle accompanied by sandstorms and extreme conditions. Also, most of the pics shown to prove chipping happened on German vehicles are DAK vehicles. But that still is not actual chipping as in showing bare metal, it just shows the underlying Panzer Grau.
sauceman
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

People who were in the military are all sure chipping occurs. Based on my time on tanks, I can assure you it does happen. Also, the paint tends to wear off on sharp corners and high traffic areas. For you civilian non-believers, just look in the back end of a dump truck or heavy construction equipment.



Again your talking about equipment that has been in service for many, many years. Heck we still have equipment that entered service 25 years ago, and yes you will find paint chips on these

As far as late war NEW equipment it's totally different.

cheers from the sandbox
wbill76
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:11 PM UTC
The reference to modern-day analogs in equipment, especially those that reference construction equipment, are understandable as it's the closest thing that people have in their minds when it comes to multi-ton tracked vehicles. Unfortunatelty it's an apples-to-oranges situation as a justification for a stylistice/aesthetic approach.

As it applies to Herbert's original question, where did this fad derive from? I think it derived from the same place that depicting wood-grain on tool handles or the usage of pin washes derived from...it was introduced as a "new" technique that created a visually appealing result...and then was promptly copied by those wanting to emulate it and then taken to further levels/extremes until we got to the level we are at today.

The hobby has room for both artistic and accuracy interests depending on your level of interest, one of the great things about it. Seeing discussions like this pop up from time to time is healthy, it indicates that the hobby hasn't become too lopsided or dominated by only one school of thought or approach.

What produces conflict between the two sides is when the aesthetic camp tries to justify something that is ultimately done for artistic reasons as being realistic or the accuracy camp attacks the aesthetic camp has being in error because it's not a realistic representation. Who's right? They both are...but for different reasons. So long as that can be recognized and respected by both sides, we have a civil discourse. It's when one side or the other tries to shout the opposition down or dismiss them for whatever reason that we get into trouble. It's possible to achieve realism without being boring just as it's possible to achieve an aesthetic without being 100% accurate...and both can produce some fine looking models depending on which lens you view them through.
Bratushka
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:04 PM UTC
here's what i don't get about the agument that paint and such was different back in WWII and it can't be compared to modern paint. when there is metal on metal contact with friction, impact, movement, and heavy masses applylng pressure on these surfaces in any given direction that somehow paint back then was so durable it was unaffected by these forces and it was 100% chip and scratch proof. a tow point bracket could be literally sheared off from a tank hull because of the weight of the vehicles involved and the forces needed to move them under tow was that much to cause wels to tear but the paint on said surfaces would be undamaged? nary a chip or scratch to be found? that explosives could detonate next to a German AFV that could put a 2 foot deep or more crater in the ground sending up earth and stone and shrapnel at extreme velocity against the vehicle and the paint would be perfect after? 30 to 45 ton metal vehicles could collide with each other as described in the backing up post elsewhere here and the paint is unblemished? maybe i'm wrong but i think that's a bit much to accept.

the argument is furthered by saying that what is seen on modern military vehicles compared to German WWII paint is comparing apples and oranges. i am asked to accept that as fact on one had while on the other i know we have military technological marvels like the Leclerc, Leopard 2, Challenger II, and Abrams, but for the past 5 decades we can't make paint as durable as the Germans did over 60 years ago? again, that's a pretty bold claim.

photographic evidence is cited as well. i am not a photogropher so i can't offer any factual based reason it doesn't appear to show up. i do know that it's hard to tell those kind of details on old B&W images. i have a soft spot for early/mid 1950s dirt track race cars and it's hard to see the scratching and chipping they got in the old photos. it's often difficult to even spot the dust and dirt unless the photo is shot just right. they same point made about how small a pencil eraser sized paint chip would appear on a 1/35 scale model has to apply to a 3 X 4 inch B&W photo in a book. i don't know how you'd see it, especially if the picture wasn't clear and perfectly exposed to begin with. add the graininess some have to age and possible physical damage i can't see how that's claimed as indisputable truth.

i don't think history overcomes the principles of physics.
m4sherman
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

here's what i don't get about the agument that paint and such was different back in WWII and it can't be compared to modern paint. when there is metal on metal contact with friction, impact, movement, and heavy masses applylng pressure on these surfaces in any given direction that somehow paint back then was so durable it was unaffected by these forces and it was 100% chip and scratch proof. a tow point bracket could be literally sheared off from a tank hull because of the weight of the vehicles involved and the forces needed to move them under tow was that much to cause wels to tear but the paint on said surfaces would be undamaged? nary a chip or scratch to be found? that explosives could detonate next to a German AFV that could put a 2 foot deep or more crater in the ground sending up earth and stone and shrapnel at extreme velocity against the vehicle and the paint would be perfect after? 30 to 45 ton metal vehicles could collide with each other as described in the backing up post elsewhere here and the paint is unblemished? maybe i'm wrong but i think that's a bit much to accept.

the argument is furthered by saying that what is seen on modern military vehicles compared to German WWII paint is comparing apples and oranges. i am asked to accept that as fact on one had while on the other i know we have military technological marvels like the Leclerc, Leopard 2, Challenger II, and Abrams, but for the past 5 decades we can't make paint as durable as the Germans did over 60 years ago? again, that's a pretty bold claim.

photographic evidence is cited as well. i am not a photogropher so i can't offer any factual based reason it doesn't appear to show up. i do know that it's hard to tell those kind of details on old B&W images. i have a soft spot for early/mid 1950s dirt track race cars and it's hard to see the scratching and chipping they got in the old photos. it's often difficult to even spot the dust and dirt unless the photo is shot just right. they same point made about how small a pencil eraser sized paint chip would appear on a 1/35 scale model has to apply to a 3 X 4 inch B&W photo in a book. i don't know how you'd see it, especially if the picture wasn't clear and perfectly exposed to begin with. add the graininess some have to age and possible physical damage i can't see how that's claimed as indisputable truth.

i don't think history overcomes the principles of physics.



If you read Herberts posts he is objecting to the size of the chips, and the large number of chips. A proliferation of chips that scale out to several inches for example on a tank that saw limited service is unlikely. There are pictures of penetrations through the tank hull armor that show little or no chipping around the hole.
wbill76
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


the argument is furthered by saying that what is seen on modern military vehicles compared to German WWII paint is comparing apples and oranges. i am asked to accept that as fact on one had while on the other i know we have military technological marvels like the Leclerc, Leopard 2, Challenger II, and Abrams, but for the past 5 decades we can't make paint as durable as the Germans did over 60 years ago? again, that's a pretty bold claim.




In debating circles this is referred to as a "non sequitor"...meaning literally "it does not follow". Take, for example, the case of primitive cave/rock art around the world. There's a site close by to where I live called Hueco Tanks which had problems with graffiti over the past decades with ancient rock art side-by-side with it. The modern inks/paints used to create the graffiti have not stood up well against the tests of time over just the space of a few short decades having faded severely and, in some cases, been erased literally by time vs. art created with very primitive (by our standards) pigments and application methods that's hundreds if not thousands of years old. My point here is simple...modern paint, while certainly more advanced chemically, better for the environment, etc. is not the same as the paint used in World War 2. Comparing how vehicles painted with modern paints behave is indeed an "apples to oranges" exercise for many reasons.

There's a reason why lead-based paints were used...they were highly durable and tough, providing effective anti-corrosion protection for extremely expensive (relative to the time) armor plated vehicles (not to mention protecting the lives of the crews) and were maintained by their crews on a regular basis in the field directly as well as supported by field maintenance units. There's a reason why they were primered and basecoated at the factories (right up to the very end of the war), because this was a critical element in their manufacture process before acceptance as combat-ready vehicles by the Heer, SS, Luftwaffe, etc. The Germans didn't scrimp on this no matter the popular conception of the "end of the war chaos" theories that abound as justification for aesthetically pleasing approaches to weathering/finishing vehicles, especially late war vehicles (a perverse application of logic in its own right but I digress).

Did chipping occur on vehicles in WW2? Most certainly, but just as you mention with the modern crews (where there is a good analog to compare to), the crews were tasked with maintaining their vehicles and keeping them in good fighting condition at all times when not in direct combat. The anecdotal/memoir evidence supporting this abounds...AFVs had multi-man crews and those crews were responsible for the day-to-day maintenance and upkeep of their vehicles which would include keeping rust and paint damage at bay. Major damage from combat (your example of shell bursts, collisions, accidents with buildings, etc.) would be repaired, including repaint, as quickly as possible by the field maintenance units where needed to keep the vehicle in good fighting condition and where such damage would hinder the combat effectiveness of the vehicle in question.

These comments do not in any way discount the real-life experiences of those who've commented in this thread. Those experiences are valid in the context in which they happened, it's just not a guarantee that those same experiences also applied to a different context as those conditions, while potentially similar in many ways, have their own variables. Those variables include time in service, field maintenance practices, paint composition and methods of application, environmental conditions, etc. that are different.
bill_c
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... crews were tasked with maintaining their vehicles and keeping them in good fighting condition at all times when not in direct combat.



Yes, and more.

In our passion to focus on the fighting man and his vehicles, we overlook that every unit in EVERY ARMY is a balance of "tooth & tail." In other words, the tanker on the firing line depends on the maintenance and supply elements, either within his HQ unit, or at brigade, division or corps level, to maintain and supply his vehicle. The Wehrmacht had a robust system for recovering, servicing, repairing (and I suspect, touching up the paint) its line units. We see a little of this in kits (like Tamiya's recent re-issue of the Opel Blitz combined with its jerry cans and fuel drum set) and conversions (various cranes) intended to show the recovery and service aspect of the Wehrmacht. Indeed, the FAMO and trailer is a bold step by Tamiya to move away from "shooters" to Schleppers.
PantherF
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:37 AM UTC
It all boils down to the saying: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Chipping looks good for some, but not for all. When I look at B&W photos it's hard to see any evidence of it at all, but we all know 'some' did occur. So, I think it's more in line of what size they should be and not the huge examples we've been seeing.

It is one of the most "over done" techniques you see in model building.
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 04:07 AM UTC
I am part of a club that restors and rides around in military vehicles. I had a similar conversation with one of the members that takes his jeep off roading alot. His response wassomething along the lines of this: If the paint chips, it usually just shoes the primer (red)

So, if you modelers have the nerve enough to sit their with a point 0000000000000 brush, paint your chips in the primer color.
Bratushka
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Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


the argument is furthered by saying that what is seen on modern military vehicles compared to German WWII paint is comparing apples and oranges. i am asked to accept that as fact on one had while on the other i know we have military technological marvels like the Leclerc, Leopard 2, Challenger II, and Abrams, but for the past 5 decades we can't make paint as durable as the Germans did over 60 years ago? again, that's a pretty bold claim.



In debating circles this is referred to as a "non sequitor"...meaning literally "it does not follow". Take, for example, the case of primitive cave/rock art around the world. There's a site close by to where I live called Hueco Tanks which had problems with graffiti over the past decades with ancient rock art side-by-side with it. The modern inks/paints used to create the graffiti have not stood up well against the tests of time over just the space of a few short decades having faded severely and, in some cases, been erased literally by time vs. art created with very primitive (by our standards) pigments and application methods that's hundreds if not thousands of years old. My point here is simple...modern paint, while certainly more advanced chemically, better for the environment, etc. is not the same as the paint used in World War 2. Comparing how vehicles painted with modern paints behave is indeed an "apples to oranges" exercise for many reasons.

There's a reason why lead-based paints were used...they were highly durable and tough, providing effective anti-corrosion protection for extremely expensive (relative to the time) armor plated vehicles (not to mention protecting the lives of the crews) and were maintained by their crews on a regular basis in the field directly as well as supported by field maintenance units. There's a reason why they were primered and basecoated at the factories (right up to the very end of the war), because this was a critical element in their manufacture process before acceptance as combat-ready vehicles by the Heer, SS, Luftwaffe, etc. The Germans didn't scrimp on this no matter the popular conception of the "end of the war chaos" theories that abound as justification for aesthetically pleasing approaches to weathering/finishing vehicles, especially late war vehicles (a perverse application of logic in its own right but I digress).

Did chipping occur on vehicles in WW2? Most certainly, but just as you mention with the modern crews (where there is a good analog to compare to), the crews were tasked with maintaining their vehicles and keeping them in good fighting condition at all times when not in direct combat. The anecdotal/memoir evidence supporting this abounds...AFVs had multi-man crews and those crews were responsible for the day-to-day maintenance and upkeep of their vehicles which would include keeping rust and paint damage at bay. Major damage from combat (your example of shell bursts, collisions, accidents with buildings, etc.) would be repaired, including repaint, as quickly as possible by the field maintenance units where needed to keep the vehicle in good fighting condition and where such damage would hinder the combat effectiveness of the vehicle in question.

These comments do not in any way discount the real-life experiences of those who've commented in this thread. Those experiences are valid in the context in which they happened, it's just not a guarantee that those same experiences also applied to a different context as those conditions, while potentially similar in many ways, have their own variables. Those variables include time in service, field maintenance practices, paint composition and methods of application, environmental conditions, etc. that are different.



Hi. I wasn't responding to one post in particular. The claims against chipping have repeated many of the same arguments throughout this thread. I get your point about the non sequitur, but the progression of my point was technologically based considering the vehicles I cited as complete entities. I was not separating them from their paint. A point about lead based paint I would like to make regarding durability is I remember back many years ago there were regular public service announcements over television and radio warning parents to beware of their children eating paint chips from lead based paint. It flaked off woodwork, iron and steel heat radiators, piping and the like. I've also dabbled in motorcycle restoration with my first Harley being a 1942 WLA which still had the original OD under the rattle-can applied color. It wasn't any more difficult to strip than the paint covering it. My second one was a 1937 74" sidevalve. Again, the paint wasn't any more difficult to remove than anything I did in later years. Both had pitting in areas you'd expect to see it. The most durable paint I ever had experience with was straight DuPont enamel with an extra dollop of hardener. That would have been circa 1980. But, I digress.

When one builds a model it is essentially a representation of that vehicle at a particular time in its life. So, a model can be anything from one of the unfortunates that went from factory to casualty in a few days, it can represent one fresh from battle, in battle, totally or partially destroyed, after the battle with all the attendant effects, crew & vehicle taking a break during a lull, any number of scenarios. Each of these will have a different approach to the finish and certain things like chipped paint may or may not be presented. I think it has been established that paint DID get chipped and scratched so representing it may be a trend, but a trend based on fact. The question about it seems to be a matter of the scale in which it is presented, both in size and quantity.

Last thing: I have an acquaintenance who worked his entire life with DuPont's automotive and industrial paint division. Previous to his retirement he specialized in troubleshooting paint application and finish problems. I believe i will ask him if he knows anything about this subject, or at least paint formulations from the WWII era. Meanwhile, can anybody offer any references pertaining to the subject of the paint used, manufacturer, chemical composition, application, etc.?