Georgia, United States
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Im sorry if I hurt your feelings,Mike from Georgia. Please accept my humblest apology. I promise never to do it again.
You didn't hurt my feelings, I just hope your self esteem is ok.
Oh and the Jagdpanther does look good, I just happen to think some of the effects were overdone.
Mike
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
To be sure,the Jagdpanther is maybe overdone. However,since I havent seen every single Jagdpanther produced and painted,I cannot say with absolute certainty that it isnt. Hence, I say that it is indeed possible and therefore looks absolutely AWESOME!!.
I'm glad that you like it. What I think is over done is the damage to the side paint, while there is only moderate damage to the paint where the crew climbed in and out. Next, the over all effect would be more consistant with a vehicle abandoned on the battle field for 20 years rather than one actually in action for a few weeks, or days. However, is that rust streaks, or dirt? It is hard to tell in the picture what the intent was.
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Texas, United States
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
To be sure,the Jagdpanther is maybe overdone. However,since I havent seen every single Jagdpanther produced and painted,I cannot say with absolute certainty that it isnt. Hence, I say that it is indeed possible and therefore looks absolutely AWESOME!!.
Mike P,
I'll grant you that the finished item here does indeed have an awesome visual quality to it and that it no doubt took a lot of time and effort to create this visual quality. It's got a lot of "WOW" factor to it that will draw the eye, no question about it. The author of this piece isn't here to defend themself so we can't say for sure what influenced them to go this route in terms of aesthetics vs. accuracy. I posted it only as an example of the spectrum that is done when it comes to chipping/rust application. Any tanker will tell you, modern or otherwise, that rust is a ruthless enemy that has to be combated constantly because rust weakens armor...and it's the armor that's keeping you alive.
In your earlier post you commented that this was getting ridiculous and you're entitled to your viewpoint as is everyone else here. Your particular viewpoint is very broad and all-encompassing since it involves the requirement that a negative be proved (i.e. "show me all the photos of all the JPs every produced at every moment in their lifetime and only then will I believe this wasn't possible"), and that's fine...but you shouldn't disparage those who take a more concrete approach in the pursuit of what was more probable/actual vs. what was possible based on the evidence at hand.
This hobby is one that encourages imitation...what with the wide availability of information, photos, etc. of techniques and finished works on the Internet, the ability for the average modeler to see something and be inspired is much larger than it was just a few short years ago. As others have mentioned, discussions like this are healthy as it provides the backdrop of "why" a style that may be visually inspiring came about and to decide for themselves whether they want to focus more on accuracy, more on aesthetics, or blend them together. It doesn't mean that the style gets dismissed, it means it gets understood.
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:42 AM UTC
rust is part of the equasion, in a old tmmi magazine, the one wirh the rc leo 2
there are reference pics of a real leo, and that had a hack of a lot of rust on the tracks
james out
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Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
rust is part of the equasion, in a old tmmi magazine, the one wirh the rc leo 2
there are reference pics of a real leo, and that had a hack of a lot of rust on the tracks
james out
rusty tracks are OK fine. i don't think i have ever heard any critique of them being overdone.
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Ohio, United States
Joined: July 03, 2006
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 236 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Couldn't agree more Herb. Something that was started by a few modelers, more concerned with artistic liscence than reality. quote]
You know, I was thinking the same thing the other day about white washes. I have seen a lot of pictures -A LOT- of actual kraut tanks with a white wash, and none of them have ever been across the whole tank like some of the flashier models depict. Most of them look hastily slapped on, with splotches of grey showing thru everywhere, as if....Oh I dont know, they were more concerned about getting back into the safety of the tank than they were a consistent paint job?
Seems to me as if you'd get a better depiction of what they really looked like if you just kind of haphazardly slopped it on, you know?
Quoted Text
I agree with you Jim. In all my years on tanks I saw plenty of chipped paint. I would think that paint is paint whether is was from 1940 or 1998, it still chips when roughed up. You are correct in the size and amount that modellers apply to their kits that could use some toning down.
Ok, as a crotchety old Boatswains mate, I will admit that we had ALOT of chipping/rust on board my ship, and Im sure there is chipping/peeling of paint on armor as well, but as it was pointed out earlier, alot of these tanks didnt last long enough to gather the magnitude of chipping these models show.
Steve, husband of the Cajun Princess
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United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Seems to me as if you'd get a better depiction of what they really looked like if you just kind of haphazardly slopped it on, you know? .
Hi Steve
Like this modellers tried to depict.
Whitewashed Tiger You'll note from the figure they are far from being a sloppy painter and I'd say they've captured the sloopy application pretty well. Would I do the same, probably not, or if I did I'd not show it because I'd simply get fed up of justifying the "poor" paint finish
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: February 01, 2004
KitMaker: 43 posts
Armorama: 42 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 07:17 AM UTC
Not sure about chipping, but I noticed a few comments about the possibility of red primer wheels earlier and remembered these photos. Have a look at the colour of the spare wheels mounted on the hull. Usual caveats apply, old photo, possibility of colourisation etc etc.... just food for thought.
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not sure about chipping, but I noticed a few comments about the possibility of red primer wheels earlier and remembered these photos. Have a look at the colour of the spare wheels mounted on the hull. Usual caveats apply, old photo, possibility of colourisation etc etc.... just food for thought.
I was wondering where I had seen it. Thanks for posting the pictures. Of interest is the color shift on the shovel handle. It looks wood colored in the first pic, and darker in the second one. Shows how just a slight change in the light and angle can affect a color. If these are originals using that early color film, then the colors will be a bit off, but that wheel sure looks like it was left in primer.
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Virginia, United States
Joined: May 09, 2006
KitMaker: 1,349 posts
Armorama: 1,267 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 04:07 PM UTC
wow that jagdpanther looks like it was recovered from the bottom of a lake in 1986
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England - North, United Kingdom
Joined: February 20, 2007
KitMaker: 1,453 posts
Armorama: 1,319 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
wow that jagdpanther looks like it was recovered from the bottom of a lake in 1986
Just as relevant in the case of that Jagdpanzer model though is that not only is the chipping / weathering arguably
overdone, it's also
not particularly
well done.
- Steve
I don't need you - sixty feet of bridge I can pick up almost anywhere.
Australia
Joined: March 15, 2008
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 127 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:12 PM UTC
Herbert,
I've jumped in well and truly late in this thread, and whilst I probably agree with much of what's being said, it is pretty difficult to pick up the level of scratching and chipping that actually goes on on an actual AFV - I have looked at most of the "close up" pics that I've got of WW2 AFV's and I can actually see quite a significant ammount of chipping , on almost every photo. (happy to post a few of them if anyone is interested)
And I'm guessing that like everything else when it comes to SCALE modelling - the need, when your working at 1/35th the actual size, is to probably "over emphasise" the effect to actually see the effect - (much like the need to drybush skin tones when figure painting, to acheive shading effects - real skin tones don't llok like that either - and if you notice, not many modellers actually use any sort of brick red colour for lips, why? because at a distance, real lips don't usually stand out as being red in colour, - but you only have to look in a mirror to know that they are.)
Greg
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
Armorama: 657 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:25 PM UTC
Regarding a post a few back about German tanks in complete whitewash, there are several images of them in the Tigers in Combat Vol 2 book. At least it isn't splotches of color as what is usually seen. A few photos show tanks that are obviously snow covered but several others show side views that look pretty thoroughly done, with lower hull area, road wheels, upper hull and turret solid white. They really looked pretty neat because those were the first I had seen that weren't patterened.
As an aside, not to be PC or anything, but isn't using "kraut" for Germans in this day sort of on the offensive side? I honestly don't know because I have heard the term "krautrock" applied to several trends in modern music in music magazines over the years. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany and came to the US in the late 1950s and although the only culture I have ever known is American the term used outside of war movies and the like has always made me wince a bit. I remember that and some other less than flattering names for Germans my Mom was called because of her thick accent after we got here. Off topic perhaps, but this is the first thread here in which I have seen the term used. Maybe it is acceptable and no thing at all? If so, I apologize for even mentioning it. Enlightenment please?
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not sure about chipping, but I noticed a few comments about the possibility of red primer wheels earlier and remembered these photos. Have a look at the colour of the spare wheels mounted on the hull. Usual caveats apply, old photo, possibility of colourisation etc etc.... just food for thought.
no, i swearthats muddy water from the lake, look at how the position shifts in th esecond picture form the first, and the water has a slight orange tinge if you look carefully,
Bratushka,
what about limey or eytie. the thing with racially based nicknames, is they are always going to be used and people are always going to be offended, i am not offended by them although some peopel most proabaly are,
Anyway thats not the point.
i chip my vehicles,
because it as a good weathering technique, realistic or not, a tank with well dont paint chipping (not overdone) looks pretty cool.
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Croatia Hrvatska
Joined: September 13, 2006
KitMaker: 306 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:31 PM UTC
Chipping is for me a "must", but I tend not to overdo it, some logic is needed in volume and placement of such.
My 2c... overdone chipping is a thing of the modeler-his ability,or lack of. Or his artistic license,because it is,if you believe it or not, this hobby, closely related with a form of art.
Personally, I can sometimes sacrifice absolute realism in order to obtain a subjective realism, and I do not "like" sterile models who are 100% accurate for the sake of this accuracy
Dublin, Ireland
Joined: November 11, 2004
KitMaker: 388 posts
Armorama: 113 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
what about limey or eytie. the thing with racially based nicknames, is they are always going to be used and people are always going to be offended, i am not offended by them although some peopel most proabaly are,
Just because they're always used doesn't mean they're right.
Anyway if I were part of a tanker crew I wouldn't leave bare metal exposed on my vehicle. You have the threat of rust to start with and if the sunlight begins glinting off your vehicle then you can spotted for miles (especially in North Africa ) which defeats the purpose of camouflage entirely.
I myself don't mind people chipping but it's not something I'd do myself.
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 02:05 AM UTC
i didnt say they were right, just that i am no offended by them,
the many times i have seen some immature american (this aint a dig at the americans here) always arguing about how we wouldnt have won the war without them, how america is better that every other country in the world always refering to the brits as idiots, e.t.c
one point i saw us referred as limeys,
oh dear....
Wrong
each country has its good points and bad points, so noone can complain
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Gelderland, Netherlands
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:27 AM UTC
The JagdPanther shown is a prime example of how accuracy has plummeted down the list of priorities in building and finishing a kit.
For instance, the Schürzen are WRONG! They don't overlap, are bent and pieces missing, which just is not possible. Anything happen, these sheets would be lost.
The rust is hugely overdone, just completely insane for a late model JagdPanther, as is the chipping.
And THAT, the fact that "oow it looks nice" is the current trend is what I find very very sad in this hobby. The general consensus has nothing to do anymore with making things look accurate.
Is it something that is like the more accurate the kits in basis, the less interested the modeller gets in being accurate?
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Removed by original poster on 10/23/08 - 10:12:31 (GMT).
Croatia Hrvatska
Joined: September 13, 2006
KitMaker: 306 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 06:01 AM UTC
Why not? It was posted as an example of overdoing trends,what is there to defend...?
As Herber said, it a perfect specimen of a trend of over the top wethering and what not to do if you opt for an even a bit of realism.
If the author is reading this,no hard feeling,but that model would not get any points for wethering realism(if such exists) from me
Tennessee, United States
Joined: March 08, 2007
KitMaker: 325 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 06:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
wow that jagdpanther looks like it was recovered from the bottom of a lake in 1986
Actually, the tanks they pull out of lakes usually look better than that... So, not realistic for a tank pulled out of a lake... [ducking]
JUST SAY NO TO RED PRIMER!
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 06:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Not sure about chipping, but I noticed a few comments about the possibility of red primer wheels earlier and remembered these photos. Have a look at the colour of the spare wheels mounted on the hull. Usual caveats apply, old photo, possibility of colourisation etc etc.... just food for thought.
no, i swearthats muddy water from the lake, look at how the position shifts in th esecond picture form the first, and the water has a slight orange tinge if you look carefully,
I am not sure what you mean. The red on the wheel is distinctive. If it was painted grey, and the color of the water changed the coloring, I would think that the fenders and other flat areas would also have that color.
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:04 AM UTC
`the water got stuck in the places, i have a picture od this @ a4 size so i will look
the picture appears to show the littlw rims behind the tyre in a similar colour, but it dosent explain how int he enlarged version of the second picture, the top half of the rw is panzergrau
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Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:20 AM UTC
it sure looks primered. the wheels on the far side of the tank look plainly grayish. when the tank is moving upward the edge of the near roadwheel rim still shows the primer color quite distinctively and follows a very precise deliniation between the two colors. another thought on the water, the roadwheels wouldn't be like a bowl holding the water would they? the lug holes and center opening would drain it off fairly rapidly.
If it weren't for law enforcement and physics I would be unstoppable!
Removed by original poster on 10/23/08 - 10:13:04 (GMT).